MtGPQ 1.7 Release Notes (9/27/16)

MaxMagic420

I noticed the Tyrant fix hasn't really popped up in discussion, and I wanted to make a quick point. I don't think it's a bug at all, actually. Consider the fact that clues count as supports towards any battle objective or card ability that requires casting supports. Clues are essentially token supports, like token creatures, right? Why should one count and not the other? If there were some consistently reliable way to summon 15-20 token creatures in one turn, then no doubt the Tyrant would be ridiculously overpowered. But in my humble opinion, I think the Tyrant is fine as is.

span_argoman

MaxMagic420 wrote:

I noticed the Tyrant fix hasn't really popped up in discussion, and I wanted to make a quick point. I don't think it's a bug at all, actually. Consider the fact that clues count as supports towards any battle objective or card ability that requires casting supports. Clues are essentially token supports, like token creatures, right? Why should one count and not the other? If there were some consistently reliable way to summon 15-20 token creatures in one turn, then no doubt the Tyrant would be ridiculously overpowered. But in my humble opinion, I think the Tyrant is fine as is.

Saheeli Rai: 1st ability + Thopter Spy Network + Devil's Playground + Tamiyo's Journal Investigation summon = 7 cost Tyrant
Consistent enough that you'll see it around.

MaxMagic420

I doubt that very much, honestly. You're talking a four to six turn setup involving multiple cards that taken together, cost about the same as it would cost just to cast the Tyrant normally. Plus, factor in the faulty RNG that makes it extremely unlikely you'll actually draw all those cards in a timely enough manner to make it worthwhile, if you can draw them all in the first place. Irony of that scenario is that if you have a spy network with saheeli, you won't need the Tyrant anyway lol.
Besides, power is relative. The Tyrant is powerful but a scour or disperse and it's three wasted turns instead. Unless it's hexproof and/or ridiculously cheap for p/t ratio, it usually doesn't cause me much of an issue when I encounter it. Tyrant? Scour. Move on. Right?

span_argoman

MaxMagic420 wrote:

I doubt that very much, honestly. You're talking a four to six turn setup involving multiple cards that taken together, cost about the same as it would cost just to cast the Tyrant normally. Plus, factor in the faulty RNG that makes it extremely unlikely you'll actually draw all those cards in a timely enough manner to make it worthwhile, if you can draw them all in the first place. Irony of that scenario is that if you have a spy network with saheeli, you won't need the Tyrant anyway lol.
Besides, power is relative. The Tyrant is powerful but a scour or disperse and it's three wasted turns instead. Unless it's hexproof and/or ridiculously cheap for p/t ratio, it usually doesn't cause me much of an issue when I encounter it. Tyrant? Scour. Move on. Right?

Well yeah they do cost a comparable amount to Tyrant but the difference is that for more or less the same cost you get more than double the board presence.

Firstly Tamiyo's Journal boosts draw, helping you get what you need. But it's the most inconsequential piece to the summon. Without it you only need Tyrant, Thopter Spy Network, Devil's Playground and a support on the board which you're likely to have to boost ramp or draw. These are cards you would be running anyway because individually they're worth the slot in the deck.

Since Saheeli's first ability costs only loyalty, mana cost-wise that's 13+4+8=25 mana for a 9/8 Tyrant with its ability, a 8/8 Thopter, and a 4/4 Red Devil. That's 5 mana above the original cost. And Thopter Spy Network stays on the board to continue contributing.

Yeah sure you can Scour the Tyrant but you spend 12 mana to do that. I spent 8 summoning out the Tyrant and already dealt you and all your creatures 6 damage each. Plus you've got another 8/8 and 4/4 to deal with.

Disperse is a better exchange but you're really just giving me another chance to deal you 6 damage. With Thopter Spy Network out and the 6 mana from Disperse, the base cost of Tyrant is already only 10 mana which is great value compared to even Exquisite Firecraft (4 mana more for a 9/8 and the 6 damage to all other targets).

Add either a Devil's Playground or Saheeli's first ability and you can throw the 6 damage to all and a 9/8 body for only 6 mana which is just one Red or Blue match (or 10 in the case of DP but with an additional 4/4).

Pqmtg-

Oh are we theory crafting today?

Hangerback walker+prism array+insane cascades= infinite tyrant damage.

span_argoman

Pqmtg- wrote:

Oh are we theory crafting today?

Hangerback walker+prism array+insane cascades= infinite tyrant damage.

Sorry, I don't get the infinite Tyrant damage. You have a max of 4 Tyrants in a deck of 40. How do you achieve infinite damage?

mouser

Anxiously awaiting these changes. 75% of the decks I played against in the Saheeli event featured either RC, hydra/sage green cascade, or harness the storm. It gets tedious to continually play against decks where your opportunities to interact feel so much more limited.

Pqmtg-

span_argoman wrote:

Pqmtg- wrote:

Oh are we theory crafting today?

Hangerback walker+prism array+insane cascades= infinite tyrant damage.

Sorry, I don't get the infinite Tyrant damage. You have a max of 4 Tyrants in a deck of 40. How do you achieve infinite damage?

I was joking obviously. You can get infinite anything with prism array and insane cascades.

MaxMagic420

All good points taken. But I don't believe the Tyrant requires a fix. That's all I'm really saying. If it was just a rare, maybe. Maybe. But it's a mythic. It's supposed to be a potentially game-changing card, and that's what it is, no more and no less. Besides, with a lvl 60 pw getting 20 mana in a turn is easy. They can fix it or leave it, I'm good either way.
The fact that it popped up at all in the update notes was why I brought it up in the first place. I honestly didn't know it was even a bug. It seemed like it was supposed to work that way.

span_argoman

MaxMagic420 wrote:

All good points taken. But I don't believe the Tyrant requires a fix. That's all I'm really saying. If it was just a rare, maybe. Maybe. But it's a mythic. It's supposed to be a potentially game-changing card, and that's what it is, no more and no less. Besides, with a lvl 60 pw getting 20 mana in a turn is easy. They can fix it or leave it, I'm good either way.
The fact that it popped up at all in the update notes was why I brought it up in the first place. I honestly didn't know it was even a bug. It seemed like it was supposed to work that way.

Might be a matter of text consistency. Reckless Bushwhacker and Crush of Tentacles have the same text. While people can argue for Crush of Tentacles also being a mythic and therefore being entitled to this treatment, Reckless Bushwhacker is a 7 mana uncommon. Also Bushwhacker never had the mana reduction from token summons unlike Tyrant of Valakut. I do wonder whether Crush of Tentacles has the same effect as Tyrant of Valakut and if so, whether they fixed it for Crush of Tentacles too.

khurram

span_argoman wrote:

I do wonder whether Crush of Tentacles has the same effect as Tyrant of Valakut and if so, whether they fixed it for Crush of Tentacles too.

Crush never had the same effect as tyrant.

Morphis

The fact I hate about tyrant(and also crush of tentacles) is that it's not easy to gain actual benefit from the mana reduction.

Getting only ONE mana reduction and ONLY UNTIL END OF TURN make it really hard to put to good use.

Token was a good way to do it.
In a good scenario, with good setup yes you can do it.
It's a nice synergistic combo requiring previous setup and TWO mythics total.
It was good. No need for it to be removed IMO.

Tyrant is good even without mana reduction anyways so that's not the point.

Also the reduction totally pales when compared to jace2 first skill mana gain.
I consistently get 24 or more mana from it.

So IMO either(one option) they need to:
- make it work with tokens
- increase mana reduction(3 or more per spell/support/creature)
- increase initial mana cost but make mana reduction permanent

Pacone

I often post to complain about stuff, it's only fair that I also post to say thank you, THANK YOU, devs, for listening to the community and soften the nerf to Kiora. I love playing G/U and the nerf bat was going toblow her into oblivion (were Jace v1 must be still wondering what hit him)

Shino

mouser wrote:

I'm wondering if it might not be better to leave ability 1 loyalty cost unchanged but reduce the mana stolen. E.g. 1/2/3/4 mana. Or could make it so the mana stolen/gained does not have to be equivalent. e.g. 2 drained, 4 gained, or something like that (1/1, 1/2, 2/3, 2/4 drain/gain maybe for levels?)

This was going to be my suggestion.

Serious question...

"David wrote:

Moore"]Sorin, Grim Nemesis

Sorin’s first and second abilities have been completely redesigned. His loadout has also been improved.

His first ability, Vampiric Drain, has been redesigned. It now reads:

- Rank 1: “Gain 1 Life and 1 Mana per creature you control.” - Rank 2: “Gain 2 Life and 1 Mana per creature you control.” - Rank 3: “Gain 3 Life and 2 Mana per creature you control.” - Rank 4: “Gain 4 Life and 2 Mana per creature you control.”

Vampiric Drain now costs 6 (down from 9).

Why is 6 mana and 4 life for 6 loyalty ok but 6 mana drain for 6 loyalty not?
Sure you have to have 3 creatures out, but that's really not that hard right?

The 6 mana gained is perfect as it matches one of her primary color matches.
If you're going to nerf something, nerf the drain.

mouser's on the right track... just half the drained mana.
gain/drain...
3/1 4/2 5/2 6/3

Seems like that makes more sense for a nerf.

The player that benefits is still benefiting the same amount (for the PW s/he paid 950 crystals for) and the player that is getting hit is getting hit for less.
Seems fair to me.

wink

Sorin's redesigned second ability (Vampiric Power) creates a support. Does anyone know how many shields that support will have?

Irgy

Shino wrote:

Why is 6 mana and 4 life for 6 loyalty ok but 6 mana drain for 6 loyalty not?
Sure you have to have 3 creatures out, but that's really not that hard right?

The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear)

Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before.

Pqmtg-

Irgy wrote:

Shino wrote:

Why is 6 mana and 4 life for 6 loyalty ok but 6 mana drain for 6 loyalty not?
Sure you have to have 3 creatures out, but that's really not that hard right?

The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear)

Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before.

I'll add to it that Kiora's ability buys you time and gets you out of a hole unconditionally. Sorin's ability requires you to have a creature out, and doesn't help you improve your standing much. His abilities are all useless if you're trying to dig yourself back into the game.

Gideon has similar traits, but if you can get a creature out, it buys you a lot more time than Sorin's ability.

arNero

Irgy wrote:

Shino wrote:

Why is 6 mana and 4 life for 6 loyalty ok but 6 mana drain for 6 loyalty not?
Sure you have to have 3 creatures out, but that's really not that hard right?

The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear)

Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before.

I agree very well with this statement.

In general, any effect that is potentially oppressive and very capable of locking a player out of interaction at all should not cost too low. I made another thread somewhere complaining about cheap kill spells currently loitering the game for the same reason why I find Kiora's current ability as utterly busted. It's the same situation and reason why in Paper Magic, land destruction effects now almost never cost less than 4 mana; LD (even temporary ones like Boomerang) was utterly unfun to play against.

But anyway, I'd like to once again use this thread to highlight my previous point which probably would never be taken seriously anyway: Liliana's first ability feels much too brutal at 6 loyalty (at least at max level). For her to lose 2 cards means nothing when a bad cascade allows her to eat your half-filled expensive card with no compensation. It's hands down the second most unfun ability to play against right below Kiora's mana steal. Although having said that, given that Madness cards cannot be discarded, probably a shift in metagame can lessen the impact of her oppressive first ability. I dunno.

Shino

"&#91 wrote: »

"]

Irgy wrote:

The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear)

Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before.

I agree very well with this statement.

In general, any effect that is potentially oppressive and very capable of locking a player out of interaction at all should not cost too low. I made another thread somewhere complaining about cheap kill spells currently loitering the game for the same reason why I find Kiora's current ability as utterly busted. It's the same situation and reason why in Paper Magic, land destruction effects now almost never cost less than 4 mana; LD (even temporary ones like Boomerang) was utterly unfun to play against.

But anyway, I'd like to once again use this thread to highlight my previous point which probably would never be taken seriously anyway: Liliana's first ability feels much too brutal at 6 loyalty (at least at max level). For her to lose 2 cards means nothing when a bad cascade allows her to eat your half-filled expensive card with no compensation. It's hands down the second most unfun ability to play against right below Kiora's mana steal. Although having said that, given that Madness cards cannot be discarded, probably a shift in metagame can lessen the impact of her oppressive first ability. I dunno.

Appreciate the feed back.
Though you guys didn't really comment on my suggestion, just my comparison.
I feel like lowering the drain to 1/2 of the gain is a fair substitute. Three mana is pretty much any match for almost all PWs... so even on a tough board, you're hurt for 1 turn or less.

Liliana's ability is far worse for 6 mana IMO. I hate dealing with her. I'm often losing turns b/c I'm moving cards around that I don't feel I need and don't lose the card I dumped a bunch of mana into already.

And again... let's not forget that this is a planeswalker that we paid 950 crystals for.

In all honesty... when I'm playing... I dread playing Liliana and Koth the most.
Especially Koth... he changes my entire gameplan. Regardless of color... I'm prioritizing red.

andrewvanmarle

Shino wrote:

Appreciate the feed back.
Though you guys didn't really comment on my suggestion, just my comparison.
I feel like lowering the drain to 1/2 of the gain is a fair substitute. Three mana is pretty much any match for almost all PWs... so even on a tough board, you're hurt for 1 turn or less.

Liliana's ability is far worse for 6 mana IMO. I hate dealing with her. I'm often losing turns b/c I'm moving cards around that I don't feel I need and don't lose the card I dumped a bunch of mana into already.

And again... let's not forget that this is a planeswalker that we paid 950 crystals for.

In all honesty... when I'm playing... I dread playing Liliana and Koth the most.
Especially Koth... he changes my entire gameplan. Regardless of color... I'm prioritizing red.

I completely agree, once the drain has been lessened, the gain should be fine for 6 mana.


Other than that: Season's'past, over balanced just the exile of the card would be enough. Harness the storm over balanced, now only usable to create dedicated loops. Why is slayers plate a support now, what was wrong with it?
Sage of ancient lore: very expensive for a 2/2 that draws one card and can grow. i think it should start out a little stronger now....and the transform should atleast give -one- card!