NorthernPolarity wrote: Ben Grimm wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Why would you be playing Gamora in the first place if you aren't using her black? Green and red are both incredibly average / mediocre with an ap ratio of ~350 without it. Her red is okay since its so cheap, but its tough to bring a character along for just a single ability. I see it as all or nothing: you either build your team around her or you bring someone else instead. Black is actually a top 3 skill if she tanks 3 colors: only surgical / rage of the panther are better. Because she's a required character or featured in a PVP. That's it. That will be the only reason I use her in the next six months. She's not going to be leveled enough for her black to be usable at all because they're so cheap with the covers for the new characters. I was assuming she would be at max covers - it's obvious that her (and most other characters) are trash until high levels / full covers. Not really sure what argument you're going for here - 5 black seems essential if you don't want her to be 100% useless on your roster if you have her max covered / iso. If your argument is "black isn't necessary because i'm never going to level her so shes always going to be bad", then her build is going to be irrelevant in any case since you're never using her. My point is to maximize the case where she can actually be useful, and 5 black is the only thing she has going for her. Also guys, remember that Gamora's red actually has an AP ratio of 286 as opposed to 350. The average case is you matching red 2 times, causing the ability to be 6 ap for that damage as opposed to 5. In any case I don't see ever bringing her just for her red when you have guys like Torch / Pun around.
Ben Grimm wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Why would you be playing Gamora in the first place if you aren't using her black? Green and red are both incredibly average / mediocre with an ap ratio of ~350 without it. Her red is okay since its so cheap, but its tough to bring a character along for just a single ability. I see it as all or nothing: you either build your team around her or you bring someone else instead. Black is actually a top 3 skill if she tanks 3 colors: only surgical / rage of the panther are better. Because she's a required character or featured in a PVP. That's it. That will be the only reason I use her in the next six months. She's not going to be leveled enough for her black to be usable at all because they're so cheap with the covers for the new characters.
NorthernPolarity wrote: Why would you be playing Gamora in the first place if you aren't using her black? Green and red are both incredibly average / mediocre with an ap ratio of ~350 without it. Her red is okay since its so cheap, but its tough to bring a character along for just a single ability. I see it as all or nothing: you either build your team around her or you bring someone else instead. Black is actually a top 3 skill if she tanks 3 colors: only surgical / rage of the panther are better.
ark123 wrote: arktos1971 wrote: That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage... AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1 Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now.
arktos1971 wrote: That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage...
gamar wrote: ark123 wrote: arktos1971 wrote: That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage... AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1 Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now. Um. Brain Freeze and Tarmo WERE bad when they came out, and as soon as the cards that enabled them to be good were released their value was immediately recognized. Pod, Hawk, and skullclamp were never, ever considered garbage except maybe by people not even good enough to place in an FNM
Ben Grimm wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Ben Grimm wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: Why would you be playing Gamora in the first place if you aren't using her black? Green and red are both incredibly average / mediocre with an ap ratio of ~350 without it. Her red is okay since its so cheap, but its tough to bring a character along for just a single ability. I see it as all or nothing: you either build your team around her or you bring someone else instead. Black is actually a top 3 skill if she tanks 3 colors: only surgical / rage of the panther are better. Because she's a required character or featured in a PVP. That's it. That will be the only reason I use her in the next six months. She's not going to be leveled enough for her black to be usable at all because they're so cheap with the covers for the new characters. I was assuming she would be at max covers - it's obvious that her (and most other characters) are trash until high levels / full covers. Not really sure what argument you're going for here - 5 black seems essential if you don't want her to be 100% useless on your roster if you have her max covered / iso. If your argument is "black isn't necessary because i'm never going to level her so shes always going to be bad", then her build is going to be irrelevant in any case since you're never using her. My point is to maximize the case where she can actually be useful, and 5 black is the only thing she has going for her. Also guys, remember that Gamora's red actually has an AP ratio of 286 as opposed to 350. The average case is you matching red 2 times, causing the ability to be 6 ap for that damage as opposed to 5. In any case I don't see ever bringing her just for her red when you have guys like Torch / Pun around. I level all my 3*s to their soft cap pretty much as soon as I can - I'm not keeping her artificially deflated; I'm planning on using her when required. But I think Psylocke is the closest comparison: I don't think she does anything well enough to use her except when she's boosted. And that's going to happen a lot more before she's fully covered and leveled than after. So, from a personal preference, I'd prefer more green and red covers first, so that she can actually use them. Black will be useful when she's fully covered, but not before then, so I see the question less as "how would you ideally like 13 covers distributed" and more "which covers will you get more use out of." Since, by the time she's fully covered, she'll be something like one of 30-35 3*s, she's going to get more use during the "red and green are her only usable skills" phase than the "black is her best skill" phase.
gamar wrote: I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
gamar wrote: Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build. Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five. Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
NorthernPolarity wrote: gamar wrote: Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build. Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five. Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it. If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory.
gamar wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: gamar wrote: Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build. Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five. Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it. If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory. I think at least Hailstorm and Summon Demons are better, if not Molotov, Masterstroke, and Inferno But even if it is the third best black, no, I don't think her black is good enough to lead a PvE B team to victory. In what B team are you going to prioritize her black over the other abilities on your B team? I can't even see doing what DrUnpleasant suggested rather than just... use a much better B team.
NorthernPolarity wrote: gamar wrote: NorthernPolarity wrote: gamar wrote: Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build. Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five. Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it. If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory. I think at least Hailstorm and Summon Demons are better, if not Molotov, Masterstroke, and Inferno But even if it is the third best black, no, I don't think her black is good enough to lead a PvE B team to victory. In what B team are you going to prioritize her black over the other abilities on your B team? I can't even see doing what DrUnpleasant suggested rather than just... use a much better B team. I really don't understand how you could think that 1k worth in attack tiles is better than 1k worth in strike tiles, unless you are misinterpreting the ability or my assumption that we're building a team where she tanks all her colors. Hailstorm is a better black as a support ability that you don't prioritize, worse if its an ability that you do prioritize because it won't straight up win you the game like the strike tiles will.
ark123 wrote: gamar wrote: ark123 wrote: arktos1971 wrote: That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage... AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1 Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now. Um. Brain Freeze and Tarmo WERE bad when they came out, and as soon as the cards that enabled them to be good were released their value was immediately recognized. Pod, Hawk, and skullclamp were never, ever considered garbage except maybe by people not even good enough to place in an FNM Tarmogoyf only became marginally better once planeswalkers were released - cheap instants, sorceries, fetchlands and creatures have always been around. How often do you see dead planeswalkers anyway? Specially in legacy or modern? When Jace goes down it's usually game over, if it's not goyf isn't helping out - he's being bounced or chumped. Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa thought birthing pod was garbage (pros were divided down the line between "new SoF" and "sorcery speed, so instant removal makes it trash). Hawk was widely regarded as complete garbage outside of the odd draft where you could get 10 of them until caw blade. it took a month and a half for skullclamp decks to show up. Don't try to school me, son. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Sligh burning, playing Jackal Pups against decks running healing salves. I've won booster boxes by casting Hatred on an Ornithopter. I've seen quad-blue enchantments dominate entire seasons of tournaments. All those moments will be lost, in Time Spirals. Like Rain of Tears. Time...to dye (via Sleight of Hand)
ShionSinX wrote: OK ok we got it, you two play MTG. The meta changes, it's life. Things get banned/nerfed and new ones come or old ones get remade/buffed. As it is now she's not that good, but when she's buffed and her red becomes a 3k nuke for 5 red and her icons are all over the place you will see her value. I'm not saying you will sell your x-force or hulk to use her, just leave her in the corner and when the right time comes she will do just fine. You never know when synergy with a new hero or a remade one will drop by. This is exactly what happens in most games of the strategy genre.