*** Gamora (Guardians of the Galaxy) ***
Comments
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NorthernPolarity wrote:Ben Grimm wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:Why would you be playing Gamora in the first place if you aren't using her black? Green and red are both incredibly average / mediocre with an ap ratio of ~350 without it. Her red is okay since its so cheap, but its tough to bring a character along for just a single ability. I see it as all or nothing: you either build your team around her or you bring someone else instead. Black is actually a top 3 skill if she tanks 3 colors: only surgical / rage of the panther are better.
Because she's a required character or featured in a PVP. That's it. That will be the only reason I use her in the next six months. She's not going to be leveled enough for her black to be usable at all because they're so cheap with the covers for the new characters.
I was assuming she would be at max covers - it's obvious that her (and most other characters) are trash until high levels / full covers. Not really sure what argument you're going for here - 5 black seems essential if you don't want her to be 100% useless on your roster if you have her max covered / iso. If your argument is "black isn't necessary because i'm never going to level her so shes always going to be bad", then her build is going to be irrelevant in any case since you're never using her. My point is to maximize the case where she can actually be useful, and 5 black is the only thing she has going for her.
Also guys, remember that Gamora's red actually has an AP ratio of 286 as opposed to 350. The average case is you matching red 2 times, causing the ability to be 6 ap for that damage as opposed to 5. In any case I don't see ever bringing her just for her red when you have guys like Torch / Pun around.
I level all my 3*s to their soft cap pretty much as soon as I can - I'm not keeping her artificially deflated; I'm planning on using her when required. But I think Psylocke is the closest comparison: I don't think she does anything well enough to use her except when she's boosted. And that's going to happen a lot more before she's fully covered and leveled than after. So, from a personal preference, I'd prefer more green and red covers first, so that she can actually use them. Black will be useful when she's fully covered, but not before then, so I see the question less as "how would you ideally like 13 covers distributed" and more "which covers will you get more use out of." Since, by the time she's fully covered, she'll be something like one of 30-35 3*s, she's going to get more use during the "red and green are her only usable skills" phase than the "black is her best skill" phase.0 -
Um. Brain Freeze and Tarmo WERE bad when they came out, and as soon as the cards that enabled them to be good were released their value was immediately recognized. Pod, Hawk, and skullclamp were never, ever considered garbage except maybe by people not even good enough to place in an FNMark123 wrote:arktos1971 wrote:That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage...
AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1
Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now.0 -
gamar wrote:
Um. Brain Freeze and Tarmo WERE bad when they came out, and as soon as the cards that enabled them to be good were released their value was immediately recognized. Pod, Hawk, and skullclamp were never, ever considered garbage except maybe by people not even good enough to place in an FNMark123 wrote:arktos1971 wrote:That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage...
AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1
Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now.
I think a better analysis would be looking at card prices before the cards are released:
EVERY planeswalker is expensive. Every common, uncommon, rare, and mythic costs SOMETHING. Even if its 1 dollar.
That's before release, of course.
Then we actually get our hands on the cards and the value deflates(or in case of sleepers, or heavy demand cards increases/stays the same).
The catalyst is generally a smart player winning big with them. Or that they're plain (Over)Powerful.
We created Sentry Bombing, the devs didn't give it to us.
In short, yes Magic vets generally have an idea of what will happen with a card, but since there's so many variables, sometimes it can be hard to say.0 -
Ben Grimm wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:Ben Grimm wrote:NorthernPolarity wrote:Why would you be playing Gamora in the first place if you aren't using her black? Green and red are both incredibly average / mediocre with an ap ratio of ~350 without it. Her red is okay since its so cheap, but its tough to bring a character along for just a single ability. I see it as all or nothing: you either build your team around her or you bring someone else instead. Black is actually a top 3 skill if she tanks 3 colors: only surgical / rage of the panther are better.
Because she's a required character or featured in a PVP. That's it. That will be the only reason I use her in the next six months. She's not going to be leveled enough for her black to be usable at all because they're so cheap with the covers for the new characters.
I was assuming she would be at max covers - it's obvious that her (and most other characters) are trash until high levels / full covers. Not really sure what argument you're going for here - 5 black seems essential if you don't want her to be 100% useless on your roster if you have her max covered / iso. If your argument is "black isn't necessary because i'm never going to level her so shes always going to be bad", then her build is going to be irrelevant in any case since you're never using her. My point is to maximize the case where she can actually be useful, and 5 black is the only thing she has going for her.
Also guys, remember that Gamora's red actually has an AP ratio of 286 as opposed to 350. The average case is you matching red 2 times, causing the ability to be 6 ap for that damage as opposed to 5. In any case I don't see ever bringing her just for her red when you have guys like Torch / Pun around.
I level all my 3*s to their soft cap pretty much as soon as I can - I'm not keeping her artificially deflated; I'm planning on using her when required. But I think Psylocke is the closest comparison: I don't think she does anything well enough to use her except when she's boosted. And that's going to happen a lot more before she's fully covered and leveled than after. So, from a personal preference, I'd prefer more green and red covers first, so that she can actually use them. Black will be useful when she's fully covered, but not before then, so I see the question less as "how would you ideally like 13 covers distributed" and more "which covers will you get more use out of." Since, by the time she's fully covered, she'll be something like one of 30-35 3*s, she's going to get more use during the "red and green are her only usable skills" phase than the "black is her best skill" phase.
Psylocke can't carry a team single-handedly like Gamora can. I guess I understand what you're saying since black might literally be 100% useless when she isn't at full covers and isn't tanking anything, but that doesn't mean that her optimal build doesn't include 5 black. If I understand your logic, you mean that since green and red can be used even though Gam doesn't tank anything, that means that you would rather get green and red covers as you level her up which is totally fair but tangential to the discussion of what her optimal build is.0 -
Why are we missing the 355 option in the pool?0
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really disappointed with this character, very underwhelming.
skull cracker: overpriced junk of a green power, needs more damage if its going to cost 12 green or less cost. 1148 damage for 12 AP, kidding right? the stun doesn't make up for the weak damage.
Razor's edge: meh would rather use Deadpool's red just cause, really vanilla and uninteresting.
Bad Reputation: probably her best move but the cost makes me cringe. the cost is probably correct because of the damage it could whip out but it suffers the from the same condition TBTI has where she has to have control of at least 2 colors make sure the cast is worthwhile, i could see it being 1-2 AP cheaper really.
8500 HP helps but i wouldn't save a roster slot for her unless either green or black got better0 -
Wow, she's just incredibly underwhelming.
The only REALLY interesting tactic I can see with her is this against Goons:
Bring Gamora (lv166), Doom and another weak character with the same colours as Gamora so that she tanks the entire board maybe except Blue (which will be Dr Doom). The fact that she's not tanking Blue isn't an issue because you'll be rushing Blue/Black (avoiding Yellow) from the start to get 12 black and reduce the coverage of blue... then pretty much 'win' due to the insane amount of strike tiles you'd create with virtually no downside.
Any additional Green/Red you collect as part of the Black/Blue rush could then be unleashed at significant additional damage due to the amount of high powered strike tiles...
Sounds quite good, situationally.0 -
Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build.
Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five.
Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade
Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.0 -
See the post above yours. That's pretty much the only scenario where i can see wanting to use her.gamar wrote:I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
And spending 12 green to stun two goons for two turns isn't a cost-effective way of slowing them down. It's a nice side benefit if you're going to be casting green anyway, but if the main goal is to slow down goons, this isn't how you'd want to go about it.0 -
I think she'll be another forgotten character.I don´t see a reason to put her in a team.Let's discuss her skills.
Starting with her green, 12 AP to hit 1148 + 2 turn stun for 2 char..., It's too expensive , even for 2 turn stun.The DAMAGE/AP it's too bad.
The red skill, hit 1719 for 5 AP, ok it's a weak damage, but its a cheap AP.Now let's imagine you want to save up some AP to hit more, so it'll be 3438 for 10 AP pretty decent right?Let's now compare with other chars.Human Torch, hit 3390 for 8 red AP + 2 red AP..Lazy Cap, hit 4031 for 11 red AP + you can get back 10 red AP back.So i think there is no more to discuss with her red skill...
And the last one, her black, 12 black AP creates strikes tile of strengh 148, this time i'll have to adimit its a good skill, she is a monster strike tile creator.But its just 1 skill.I think there other chars that createas strong strike + have other good abilities, like BP for 12 black AP he hits 3,7k AOE damage, and can create strike tiles with yellow.BUT its still a good ability for her.
Concluding its 2 bad abilities vs 1 decent ability...Like i said before i don´t see any reason to put her in a team.There are other characters that can surprass all her abilities.It's just my opinion fell free to reply if you think different from me.Maybe i can change my mind...0 -
gamar wrote:Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build.
Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five.
Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade
Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory.0 -
I think at least Hailstorm and Summon Demons are better, if not Molotov, Masterstroke, and InfernoNorthernPolarity wrote:gamar wrote:Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build.
Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five.
Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade
Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory.
But even if it is the third best black, no, I don't think her black is good enough to lead a PvE B team to victory. In what B team are you going to prioritize her black over the other abilities on your B team? I can't even see doing what DrUnpleasant suggested rather than just... use a much better B team.0 -
gamar wrote:
I think at least Hailstorm and Summon Demons are better, if not Molotov, Masterstroke, and InfernoNorthernPolarity wrote:gamar wrote:Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build.
Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five.
Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade
Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory.
But even if it is the third best black, no, I don't think her black is good enough to lead a PvE B team to victory. In what B team are you going to prioritize her black over the other abilities on your B team? I can't even see doing what DrUnpleasant suggested rather than just... use a much better B team.
I really don't understand how you could think that 1k worth in attack tiles is better than 1k worth in strike tiles, unless you are misinterpreting the ability or my assumption that we're building a team where she tanks all her colors. Hailstorm is a better black as a support ability that you don't prioritize, worse if its an ability that you do prioritize because it won't straight up win you the game like the strike tiles will.0 -
Yeah, maybe Summon Demons isn't better, you're probably right. But to get 1k out of Gamora you need almost half the board to be her tiles and 7 yellow tiles on the board. Even with her tanking all of your colors, that isn't a sure thing by a long shot. Nobody calls TBTI the "best red ability" because it's insane if you build your entire team around it and get the best case, the same applies to Gamora's black.NorthernPolarity wrote:gamar wrote:
I think at least Hailstorm and Summon Demons are better, if not Molotov, Masterstroke, and InfernoNorthernPolarity wrote:gamar wrote:Black is her best power, but paradoxically, I think 553 is her best build.
Her green is underwhelming, but sometimes, especially against goons, stunning two opponents for two turns is an excellent move, so I want this at five.
Barring Thora and LCap, my teams don't have reds I give priority to, so a dirt cheap red I can dump red I cascaded into is nice, especially with Daken or Blade
Her black is strong and looking at Gamora in a vacuum seems like a clear 5, but at 12 AP and no immediate impact I can't imagine a scenario or team where I would actually prioritize black in order to use it.
If you're running Daken, then Psylocke is infinitely better than Gamora. With blade, I could see an argument with running Gamora, but red isn't even that big of a priority with blade since matching red turns off thirst. I feel like 5/5/3 is a concession that Gamora is just always and forever going to be doomed to mediocrity. Green is very expensive for what it does, red is fine but average, and one average ability and a mediocre one isn't going to warrant any spot on any team. Tanking 3/7 black makes her black what, the third best black ability in the game behind SS and RoTP? Easily good enough to have her lead a PvE B team to victory.
But even if it is the third best black, no, I don't think her black is good enough to lead a PvE B team to victory. In what B team are you going to prioritize her black over the other abilities on your B team? I can't even see doing what DrUnpleasant suggested rather than just... use a much better B team.
I really don't understand how you could think that 1k worth in attack tiles is better than 1k worth in strike tiles, unless you are misinterpreting the ability or my assumption that we're building a team where she tanks all her colors. Hailstorm is a better black as a support ability that you don't prioritize, worse if its an ability that you do prioritize because it won't straight up win you the game like the strike tiles will.
And yes, I pretty much directly said that I don't think Gamora's black is good enough to build a team around [where she tanks all the colors] - You aren't just comparing Black abilities to Black abilities, if you're going to go all-in on Bad Reputation, it had better be the best ability of ANY color on your B-team because you want to get it off ASAP and super-prioritize black. And I'm not convinced it's worth it, although I'm a little LESS not convinced after thinking it over again
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gamar wrote:
Um. Brain Freeze and Tarmo WERE bad when they came out, and as soon as the cards that enabled them to be good were released their value was immediately recognized. Pod, Hawk, and skullclamp were never, ever considered garbage except maybe by people not even good enough to place in an FNMark123 wrote:arktos1971 wrote:That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage...
AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1
Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now.
Tarmogoyf only became marginally better once planeswalkers were released - cheap instants, sorceries, fetchlands and creatures have always been around. How often do you see dead planeswalkers anyway? Specially in legacy or modern? When Jace goes down it's usually game over, if it's not goyf isn't helping out - he's being bounced or chumped.
Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa thought birthing pod was garbage (pros were divided down the line between "new SoF" and "sorcery speed, so instant removal makes it trash). Hawk was widely regarded as complete garbage outside of the odd draft where you could get 10 of them until caw blade. it took a month and a half for skullclamp decks to show up.
Don't try to school me, son. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Sligh burning, playing Jackal Pups against decks running healing salves.
I've won booster boxes by casting Hatred on an Ornithopter.
I've seen quad-blue enchantments dominate entire seasons of tournaments.
All those moments will be lost, in Time Spirals. Like Rain of Tears. Time...to dye (via Sleight of Hand)0 -
I can see levelling her past max match damage of all 2*s for a desperation d-team for pve, but I don't care enough to check how high that level would have to be, and I've a feeling it's too high for me to ever actually do it.0
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Who was going to play Goyf while Flash was legal? Who would play Hawk without their blades? Hordes of bidding decks with four clamps were winning regionals DAYS after darksteel was released.ark123 wrote:gamar wrote:
Um. Brain Freeze and Tarmo WERE bad when they came out, and as soon as the cards that enabled them to be good were released their value was immediately recognized. Pod, Hawk, and skullclamp were never, ever considered garbage except maybe by people not even good enough to place in an FNMark123 wrote:arktos1971 wrote:That's pretty like what the Magic the Gathering players do when analysing a card. They know pretty instantly it will go to Standard/Commander/Vintage...
AHEM. Tarmogoyfs were worth less than a dollar when I picked mine up because they were garbage cards that had no place in any decks:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsear ... ame_type=1
Birthing pod was considered garbage. Squadron hawk was considered garbage. Skullclamp. Brain Freeze. I could go on, but ALL of these ended up making it to decks that won championships and are widely regarded as great cards now.
Tarmogoyf only became marginally better once planeswalkers were released - cheap instants, sorceries, fetchlands and creatures have always been around. How often do you see dead planeswalkers anyway? Specially in legacy or modern? When Jace goes down it's usually game over, if it's not goyf isn't helping out - he's being bounced or chumped.
Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa thought birthing pod was garbage (pros were divided down the line between "new SoF" and "sorcery speed, so instant removal makes it trash). Hawk was widely regarded as complete garbage outside of the odd draft where you could get 10 of them until caw blade. it took a month and a half for skullclamp decks to show up.
Don't try to school me, son. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Sligh burning, playing Jackal Pups against decks running healing salves.
I've won booster boxes by casting Hatred on an Ornithopter.
I've seen quad-blue enchantments dominate entire seasons of tournaments.
All those moments will be lost, in Time Spirals. Like Rain of Tears. Time...to dye (via Sleight of Hand)
I've moaned at fallen empires and wept at homelands. I've played a Type 2 deck with 4 black vise. I watched Jester's Cap climb to thirty dollars. You played sligh? I played Geeba Red to fight Necro before Pups were even whelped
Make like a lemming and step off0 -
OK ok we got it, you two play MTG. The meta changes, it's life. Things get banned/nerfed and new ones come or old ones get remade/buffed. As it is now she's not that good, but when she's buffed and her red becomes a 3k nuke for 5 red and her icons are all over the place you will see her value.
I'm not saying you will sell your x-force or hulk to use her, just leave her in the corner and when the right time comes she will do just fine. You never know when synergy with a new hero or a remade one will drop by.
This is exactly what happens in most games of the strategy genre.0 -
ShionSinX wrote:OK ok we got it, you two play MTG. The meta changes, it's life. Things get banned/nerfed and new ones come or old ones get remade/buffed. As it is now she's not that good, but when she's buffed and her red becomes a 3k nuke for 5 red and her icons are all over the place you will see her value.
I'm not saying you will sell your x-force or hulk to use her, just leave her in the corner and when the right time comes she will do just fine. You never know when synergy with a new hero or a remade one will drop by.
This is exactly what happens in most games of the strategy genre.
She's not going to get buffed - If characters like Daredevil and Beast aren't being touched, then an average character like Gamora isn't going to see a change in eons.0
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