PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

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  • WiDoW0042
    WiDoW0042 Posts: 26 Just Dropped In


    This is from an s1 cl10 bracket. I can’t remember the last time I didn’t make full progression, but watching opposing Riri/Mthor teams stun every turn because they started with a load of green ap, or growing old waiting for the infinite cascades to stop due to a boards shuffling support, or being dumb struck…err…love struck and causing no damage or being stunned over and over left me annoyed enough to not care to continue this event past 1048 points. On the other hand, 1048 would never have been enough for t10 before supports. I guess a lot other players stopped short as well, so…thanks? :/

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 242 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:

    On the last page you talked about getting fights that were unwinnable. You talked about dumping points to get fights you could actually win, and how supports are good because they allow you to "punch up" against stronger rosters.

    Are we really talking about a difference of one minute per fight here??? We're going to completely throw away player agency, fundamentally change the nature of the game for everyone, massively increase randomness, and enable player turn0 wins and AI turn 1 losses, for an average change of one minute or less per fight? And that's a good thing?

    I gave my whole PVP history there. Those are things I did historically. I haven’t had to dump points in awhile. I did have to do it for one of the 2* release events when I was trying to get to 50 wins for the tokens and the boost list was unfavorable. That was probably the only time in the last 18 months or so.

    So much hyperbole from you. I’m not winning in 1 turn (other than the team I mentioned) and I had some turn one losses prior to supports so that’s nothing new. Most of my fights are at least a couple rounds back and forth. There’s no “easy mode” just quick mode? Loss of player agency? Exaggerate much? You can still choose which teams to run, what supports to use, and which opponents to face. I’ve given multiple examples of teams I’ve used this season. I’ve asked, but you still haven’t given me a single example of the super team that is so good it can win in turn0 or 1, and all the big rosters are using it, so everyone has to use it, thus losing their agency. I’m seeing more variety not less. Please tell me what this super team is so I can start using it. Please!

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 182 Tile Toppler

    Supports should be inactive when the supported characters are stunned, away, or airborne.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ArchusMonk said:

    I gave my whole PVP history there. Those are things I did historically. I haven’t had to dump points in awhile. I did have to do it for one of the 2* release events when I was trying to get to 50 wins for the tokens and the boost list was unfavorable. That was probably the only time in the last 18 months or so.

    So much hyperbole from you. I’m not winning in 1 turn (other than the team I mentioned) and I had some turn one losses prior to supports so that’s nothing new. Most of my fights are at least a couple rounds back and forth. There’s no “easy mode” just quick mode? Loss of player agency? Exaggerate much? You can still choose which teams to run, what supports to use, and which opponents to face. I’ve given multiple examples of teams I’ve used this season. I’ve asked, but you still haven’t given me a single example of the super team that is so good it can win in turn0 or 1, and all the big rosters are using it, so everyone has to use it, thus losing their agency. I’m seeing more variety not less. Please tell me what this super team is so I can start using it. Please!

    I won multiple fights against full 5* teams turn 1 with Colossus (fantasticar) and 2->5 Nightcrawler (purple infinity stone). Before that I won fights turn0 with 1->5 Spiderman and Juggernaut. I lost fights to that team as well. This week I'm winning fights with Yellowjacket (infinity stone+ free green supports).

    I've lost plenty of fights on offense to m'Thor + Riri (free green supports).

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    Since the "minimizing time is the goal" thing has come up again, I think it's time for everyone's favorite: the thought exercise!

    Let's say the MPQ developers introduce a new option for every event (PvP and PvE). Now when you join, you have a button to press that says "Autoplay." Press it, and the game immediately awards you all placement (1st place) and max progression awards for the event, as well as giving you whatever alliance minimum score you want. The only downside is that you cannot play the event -- it immediately completes. (Since we've got all these new daily quests since the last time, let's complete all those for you too, and give you the rewards).

    How often are you pressing that button? Is it only when you're too busy to play? Is it only for events you don't like? Or do you press the button for every single event? (Ignore that they'd never do this, this is a thought exercise for a reason).

  • ArchusMonk
    ArchusMonk Posts: 242 Tile Toppler

    @entrailbucket said:

    I won multiple fights against full 5* teams turn 1 with Colossus (fantasticar) and 2->5 Nightcrawler (purple infinity stone). Before that I won fights turn0 with 1->5 Spiderman and Juggernaut. I lost fights to that team as well. This week I'm winning fights with Yellowjacket (infinity stone+ free green supports).

    I've lost plenty of fights on offense to m'Thor + Riri (free green supports).

    Well there you go. I already admitted 1s5 spidey boost week was turn 1-able. I thoroughly enjoyed that week. You didn’t. Agree to disagree. Few people have 2a5 NC, and I don’t know that I saw it once while colossus was boosted, so that’s not a team that is destroying player agency. I also ran YJ this week, and it was fast but certainly not a killer team. Plenty of people ran 2x boosted or 2x unboosted 550’s last event, so player agency was saved! Still not seeing loss of agency. Sorry try again. Also, just to be clear, it’s worse than you think. 1 minute fights were my goal pre-support. That’s still my goal, but now it’s much easier to achieve AND again I’m seeing a wider variety of opponents to choose from, so I’m spending less time selecting opponents. I actively avoid the last 3 hours of an event because there are a lot of folks with big rosters throwing their weight around, so my experience might be different if I tried to play then. If you enjoy it, more power to you. Again, agency! Choice! Options!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ArchusMonk said:

    Well there you go. I already admitted 1s5 spidey boost week was turn 1-able. I thoroughly enjoyed that week. You didn’t. Agree to disagree. Few people have 2a5 NC, and I don’t know that I saw it once while colossus was boosted, so that’s not a team that is destroying player agency. I also ran YJ this week, and it was fast but certainly not a killer team. Plenty of people ran 2x boosted or 2x unboosted 550’s last event, so player agency was saved! Still not seeing loss of agency. Sorry try again. Also, just to be clear, it’s worse than you think. 1 minute fights were my goal pre-support. That’s still my goal, but now it’s much easier to achieve AND again I’m seeing a wider variety of opponents to choose from, so I’m spending less time selecting opponents. I actively avoid the last 3 hours of an event because there are a lot of folks with big rosters throwing their weight around, so my experience might be different if I tried to play then. If you enjoy it, more power to you. Again, agency! Choice! Options!

    I'm talking about player agency during fights. When fighting peers, games should be won or lost based on choices made during the game, not choices you make before it even starts. Otherwise, why does the match-3 part even exist?

    Also LOL at avoiding "folks with big rosters!" YOU are "folks with big rosters!"

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    Can it? Can you think of other things you love doing, that you want to do for as little time as possible? Do you listen to music you love on fast forward? Do you purposely schedule your vacations for a shorter period of time, so you can get them over with?

    I might fast forward to my favourite bits even though I love the whole album, sure! Why not? I still love the album! But then again I like PvP!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    I might fast forward to my favourite bits even though I love the whole album, sure! Why not? I still love the album! But then again I like PvP!

    Would you ever say your goal is to minimize time spent listening to your favorite songs?

    Like, "I love Weird Al Yankovich, my goal every day is to listen to his entire discography in the fastest possible time, just to get it over with!"

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    By the way...does anyone actually know what this argument is about any more?!?!?

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    Would you ever say your goal is to minimize time spent listening to your favorite songs?

    Like, "I love Weird Al Yankovich, my goal every day is to listen to his entire discography in the fastest possible time, just to get it over with!"

    I would solve that problem by not knowing who Weird Al Yankovich is firstly but otherwise remember he did that terrible Michael Jackson parody song so definitely fast forward that. I have no problem otherwise sometimes cherry picking what I listen to. Why not? I get maximum pleasure for best time invested. That doesn't mean I don't like the album.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:
    By the way...does anyone actually know what this argument is about any more?!?!?

    Some of the players who like supports in PvP hate PvP in general but feel forced to play it for whatever reason. They like supports because they let them spend less time playing the game, which they view as universally good.

    Some players who don't like supports in PvP enjoyed PvP pre -supports, and feel that they make fights too easy, fast, or random, and basically rob players of in-game agency.

    It's not really a resolvable argument, but I do love having it every time. I love the little dance some folks have to do to pretend that they still like playing this game, even though they obviously hate everything about it but are unwilling or unable to walk away.

    I don't think the devs should be taking suggestions or making changes to benefit the sunk-cost people, because nothing will ever make them happy, and the stuff they want will kill the enjoyment of the game for the folks who actually still like it.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    I would solve that problem by not knowing who Weird Al Yankovich is firstly but otherwise remember he did that terrible Michael Jackson parody song so definitely fast forward that. I have no problem otherwise sometimes cherry picking what I listen to. Why not? I get maximum pleasure for best time invested. That doesn't mean I don't like the album.

    The metaphor doesn't work for what you're talking about. These folks aren't skipping a few bits of PvP that they don't like to get to the parts they do -- they don't like any of it and would prefer to fast forward through the entire thing.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    The metaphor doesn't work for what you're talking about. These folks aren't skipping a few bits of PvP that they don't like to get to the parts they do -- they don't like any of it and would prefer to fast forward through the entire thing.

    So sort of like reading your posts?

    I kid, I kid! 😉😀

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    Some of the players who like supports in PvP hate PvP in general but feel forced to play it for whatever reason. They like supports because they let them spend less time playing the game, which they view as universally good.

    Some players who don't like supports in PvP enjoyed PvP pre -supports, and feel that they make fights too easy, fast, or random, and basically rob players of in-game agency.

    It's not really a resolvable argument, but I do love having it every time. I love the little dance some folks have to do to pretend that they still like playing this game, even though they obviously hate everything about it but are unwilling or unable to walk away.

    I don't think the devs should be taking suggestions or making changes to benefit the sunk-cost people, because nothing will ever make them happy, and the stuff they want will kill the enjoyment of the game for the folks who actually still like it.

    Can we not wait and see what the result of this test is?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    Can we not wait and see what the result of this test is?

    We're feeding back, here! They asked to be fed back!

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,504 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:

    We're feeding back, here! They asked to be fed back!

    Fair enough! But it sort of feels like we have now gone to a discussion about PvP itself not Supports?

  • LennoxHC
    LennoxHC Posts: 29 Just Dropped In

    @WiDoW0042 said:

    This is from an s1 cl10 bracket. I can’t remember the last time I didn’t make full progression, but watching opposing Riri/Mthor teams stun every turn because they started with a load of green ap, or growing old waiting for the infinite cascades to stop due to a boards shuffling support, or being dumb struck…err…love struck and causing no damage or being stunned over and over left me annoyed enough to not care to continue this event past 1048 points. On the other hand, 1048 would never have been enough for t10 before supports. I guess a lot other players stopped short as well, so…thanks? :/

    Hey, there I am! I think this was actually the S5 bracket. I have been indifferent to supports in PvP. I've got meta 5s at a baby champ level (~470), but mainly used Kang - Darkveil to get to 50 wins. That combo works a little better with supports, but also can work fine without them. I've also found it fun to play because I need to plan out who I need to send away and what AP I need for the next turn to either keep the combo going or knock out someone to win the match. I am an easy retaliation target but again I don't mind that since I'm mainly going for wins.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DAZ0273 said:

    Fair enough! But it sort of feels like we have now gone to a discussion about PvP itself not Supports?

    If the feedback they're getting is "I like supports in PvP," but someone digs a bit, and the reason is "I hate engaging with PvP, and supports are great because your game is awful and they let me avoid engaging with your game" is that good feedback or bad feedback?

    Isn't that more valuable than "I like supports in PvP?"

  • Borstock
    Borstock Posts: 3,017 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Tony_Foot said:
    I think there's a lot of exaggeration here to suit an agenda. I tried a 500 mthor with a lower level riri with supports that gave me 14 or so green. I often ran out of green, couldn't get more or had teams with lots of protect titles that made that team poor. It was far from quick too. I used plenty of health packs and winning wasn't a foregone conclusion.

    I certainly wouldn't run it against huge teams.

    It's literally all I ran up to 1200. I never lost. I attacked and easily defeated a 672 Knull, 620 Kaine, all characters with maxed supports, 4 times in a row. My alliance mate ran the team after I told him about it and trounced a 672 Knull and 672 YJ. He doesn't have maxed mThor like me and his RiRi is a baby champ.

    It's not exaggeration. It's what happened.

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