PVP Supports: Feedback Thread

@entrailbucket said:

show previous quotes

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

It varies from event to event depending on what I’m running, but for the last PVP, I absolutely avoided any YJ for reasons I noted above. I generally tried to avoid double boosted unless they were the 1a5’s because of the large health pools. I targeted just about any pair of unboosted that I could find, and this PVP they were easy to find. To me, my baby boosted were faster to kill with than 550 Jane 545 Riri. I would have attacked non-YJ double boosted teams if I’d had to, but it never came to that, so I don’t know how quickly I could have beaten them.

I play in s2, in the last two hours. I play there because it's exciting. Many of the other slices make it easy to score a ton without even trying. In s2, especially at the end, it tests your skill.

I ran lvl630 Yellowjacket and lvl645 Ronan last event (plus 3->5 Deadpool at 500+), and took double digit losses to unboosted m'Thor teams. I normally engage in multiple retal wars over the course of an event, and I can usually win a bit faster than those guys, but generally just 2 wins to their 1. I don't understand why you're avoiding fights you can win in less than 2 minutes -- other players with your roster are doing this trivially.

There is not now, and has never been (in 10+ years), a team I'd skip because I didn't think I could win. I take fights based on opponent points and opponent names. Most PvP players are playing the same way.

I’m not avoiding teams because I can’t win. I’ve been pretty consistent that speed is most important to me, so I’m avoiding fights with the potential to go long. I don’t time my fights strictly, but my goal is for a fight to last 1 minute or less. Taking 2 minutes to chew through the health pools of 2x 672 holds little interest to me. If I play differently than the majority, I’m perfectly fine with that.

@BriMan2222 said:
I think your experience is so different @entrailbucket because of the time and slice you play. I also play in slice 2, but start much earlier. In the last few hours the only teams I can que are single digit seals or I might catch some one on a hop and they will of course be using their fastest A team to hop as quickly as possible.

And if you are climbing in the last 2 hours, you are likely the only opponent many people can que that is worth more than like 4 points. That likely gives those mthor/shang teams more incentive to hit you, even if they are afraid they might lose because it really is their only option. I bet a lot more players would skip you if played earlier. Actually I know they must, because I see players with big rosters like yours floating at about 1100 points all event long and then casually strolling to 1300 or 1400 points in the last 8 hours.

The point was that it can be done. I know this because players are doing it.

@entrailbucket said:

show previous quotes

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

It varies from event to event depending on what I’m running, but for the last PVP, I absolutely avoided any YJ for reasons I noted above. I generally tried to avoid double boosted unless they were the 1a5’s because of the large health pools. I targeted just about any pair of unboosted that I could find, and this PVP they were easy to find. To me, my baby boosted were faster to kill with than 550 Jane 545 Riri. I would have attacked non-YJ double boosted teams if I’d had to, but it never came to that, so I don’t know how quickly I could have beaten them.

I play in s2, in the last two hours. I play there because it's exciting. Many of the other slices make it easy to score a ton without even trying. In s2, especially at the end, it tests your skill.

I ran lvl630 Yellowjacket and lvl645 Ronan last event (plus 3->5 Deadpool at 500+), and took double digit losses to unboosted m'Thor teams. I normally engage in multiple retal wars over the course of an event, and I can usually win a bit faster than those guys, but generally just 2 wins to their 1. I don't understand why you're avoiding fights you can win in less than 2 minutes -- other players with your roster are doing this trivially.

There is not now, and has never been (in 10+ years), a team I'd skip because I didn't think I could win. I take fights based on opponent points and opponent names. Most PvP players are playing the same way.

I’m not avoiding teams because I can’t win. I’ve been pretty consistent that speed is most important to me, so I’m avoiding fights with the potential to go long. I don’t time my fights strictly, but my goal is for a fight to last 1 minute or less. Taking 2 minutes to chew through the health pools of 2x 672 holds little interest to me. If I play differently than the majority, I’m perfectly fine with that.

On the last page you talked about getting fights that were unwinnable. You talked about dumping points to get fights you could actually win, and how supports are good because they allow you to "punch up" against stronger rosters.

Are we really talking about a difference of one minute per fight here??? We're going to completely throw away player agency, fundamentally change the nature of the game for everyone, massively increase randomness, and enable player turn0 wins and AI turn 1 losses, for an average change of one minute or less per fight? And that's a good thing?

I gave my whole PVP history there. Those are things I did historically. I haven’t had to dump points in awhile. I did have to do it for one of the 2* release events when I was trying to get to 50 wins for the tokens and the boost list was unfavorable. That was probably the only time in the last 18 months or so.

So much hyperbole from you. I’m not winning in 1 turn (other than the team I mentioned) and I had some turn one losses prior to supports so that’s nothing new. Most of my fights are at least a couple rounds back and forth. There’s no “easy mode” just quick mode? Loss of player agency? Exaggerate much? You can still choose which teams to run, what supports to use, and which opponents to face. I’ve given multiple examples of teams I’ve used this season. I’ve asked, but you still haven’t given me a single example of the super team that is so good it can win in turn0 or 1, and all the big rosters are using it, so everyone has to use it, thus losing their agency. I’m seeing more variety not less. Please tell me what this super team is so I can start using it. Please!

@ArchusMonk said:

show previous quotes

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

It varies from event to event depending on what I’m running, but for the last PVP, I absolutely avoided any YJ for reasons I noted above. I generally tried to avoid double boosted unless they were the 1a5’s because of the large health pools. I targeted just about any pair of unboosted that I could find, and this PVP they were easy to find. To me, my baby boosted were faster to kill with than 550 Jane 545 Riri. I would have attacked non-YJ double boosted teams if I’d had to, but it never came to that, so I don’t know how quickly I could have beaten them.

I play in s2, in the last two hours. I play there because it's exciting. Many of the other slices make it easy to score a ton without even trying. In s2, especially at the end, it tests your skill.

I ran lvl630 Yellowjacket and lvl645 Ronan last event (plus 3->5 Deadpool at 500+), and took double digit losses to unboosted m'Thor teams. I normally engage in multiple retal wars over the course of an event, and I can usually win a bit faster than those guys, but generally just 2 wins to their 1. I don't understand why you're avoiding fights you can win in less than 2 minutes -- other players with your roster are doing this trivially.

There is not now, and has never been (in 10+ years), a team I'd skip because I didn't think I could win. I take fights based on opponent points and opponent names. Most PvP players are playing the same way.

I’m not avoiding teams because I can’t win. I’ve been pretty consistent that speed is most important to me, so I’m avoiding fights with the potential to go long. I don’t time my fights strictly, but my goal is for a fight to last 1 minute or less. Taking 2 minutes to chew through the health pools of 2x 672 holds little interest to me. If I play differently than the majority, I’m perfectly fine with that.

On the last page you talked about getting fights that were unwinnable. You talked about dumping points to get fights you could actually win, and how supports are good because they allow you to "punch up" against stronger rosters.

Are we really talking about a difference of one minute per fight here??? We're going to completely throw away player agency, fundamentally change the nature of the game for everyone, massively increase randomness, and enable player turn0 wins and AI turn 1 losses, for an average change of one minute or less per fight? And that's a good thing?

I gave my whole PVP history there. Those are things I did historically. I haven’t had to dump points in awhile. I did have to do it for one of the 2* release events when I was trying to get to 50 wins for the tokens and the boost list was unfavorable. That was probably the only time in the last 18 months or so.

So much hyperbole from you. I’m not winning in 1 turn (other than the team I mentioned) and I had some turn one losses prior to supports so that’s nothing new. Most of my fights are at least a couple rounds back and forth. There’s no “easy mode” just quick mode? Loss of player agency? Exaggerate much? You can still choose which teams to run, what supports to use, and which opponents to face. I’ve given multiple examples of teams I’ve used this season. I’ve asked, but you still haven’t given me a single example of the super team that is so good it can win in turn0 or 1, and all the big rosters are using it, so everyone has to use it, thus losing their agency. I’m seeing more variety not less. Please tell me what this super team is so I can start using it. Please!

I won multiple fights against full 5* teams turn 1 with Colossus (fantasticar) and 2->5 Nightcrawler (purple infinity stone). Before that I won fights turn0 with 1->5 Spiderman and Juggernaut. I lost fights to that team as well. This week I'm winning fights with Yellowjacket (infinity stone+ free green supports).

I've lost plenty of fights on offense to m'Thor + Riri (free green supports).

@entrailbucket said:

show previous quotes

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@entrailbucket said:
@ArchusMonk your previous posts made it sound like you were a newish 4* player struggling to win PvP fights against teams that were many levels ahead of you.

Now you reveal that you're a 550 player with m'Thor fully maxed out? You are not "punching up" at anyone! You are the .0001%. Other players "punch up" at YOU. You can trivially win any fight against any team. I know this, because other players with your exact roster frequently destroy my 672s. They win these fights in a minute or two, regularly and consistently.

I didn’t imply anything, but if you consider us peers, then why is our experience so different? Why am I seeing a wider variety of potential opponents while you are not? Why am I not seeing the instant win teams that are seeing or using that are ruining PVP for you but improving it for me?

No idea. What potential opponents are you seeing? It could be down to differences in time slice or start times.

More importantly, what fights are you skipping that you think you can't win? I'm not kidding -- I frequently run a million HP worth of boosted guys, and take defensive losses, fast, to unboosted 550 m'Thor/x.

It varies from event to event depending on what I’m running, but for the last PVP, I absolutely avoided any YJ for reasons I noted above. I generally tried to avoid double boosted unless they were the 1a5’s because of the large health pools. I targeted just about any pair of unboosted that I could find, and this PVP they were easy to find. To me, my baby boosted were faster to kill with than 550 Jane 545 Riri. I would have attacked non-YJ double boosted teams if I’d had to, but it never came to that, so I don’t know how quickly I could have beaten them.

I play in s2, in the last two hours. I play there because it's exciting. Many of the other slices make it easy to score a ton without even trying. In s2, especially at the end, it tests your skill.

I ran lvl630 Yellowjacket and lvl645 Ronan last event (plus 3->5 Deadpool at 500+), and took double digit losses to unboosted m'Thor teams. I normally engage in multiple retal wars over the course of an event, and I can usually win a bit faster than those guys, but generally just 2 wins to their 1. I don't understand why you're avoiding fights you can win in less than 2 minutes -- other players with your roster are doing this trivially.

There is not now, and has never been (in 10+ years), a team I'd skip because I didn't think I could win. I take fights based on opponent points and opponent names. Most PvP players are playing the same way.

I’m not avoiding teams because I can’t win. I’ve been pretty consistent that speed is most important to me, so I’m avoiding fights with the potential to go long. I don’t time my fights strictly, but my goal is for a fight to last 1 minute or less. Taking 2 minutes to chew through the health pools of 2x 672 holds little interest to me. If I play differently than the majority, I’m perfectly fine with that.

On the last page you talked about getting fights that were unwinnable. You talked about dumping points to get fights you could actually win, and how supports are good because they allow you to "punch up" against stronger rosters.

Are we really talking about a difference of one minute per fight here??? We're going to completely throw away player agency, fundamentally change the nature of the game for everyone, massively increase randomness, and enable player turn0 wins and AI turn 1 losses, for an average change of one minute or less per fight? And that's a good thing?

I gave my whole PVP history there. Those are things I did historically. I haven’t had to dump points in awhile. I did have to do it for one of the 2* release events when I was trying to get to 50 wins for the tokens and the boost list was unfavorable. That was probably the only time in the last 18 months or so.

So much hyperbole from you. I’m not winning in 1 turn (other than the team I mentioned) and I had some turn one losses prior to supports so that’s nothing new. Most of my fights are at least a couple rounds back and forth. There’s no “easy mode” just quick mode? Loss of player agency? Exaggerate much? You can still choose which teams to run, what supports to use, and which opponents to face. I’ve given multiple examples of teams I’ve used this season. I’ve asked, but you still haven’t given me a single example of the super team that is so good it can win in turn0 or 1, and all the big rosters are using it, so everyone has to use it, thus losing their agency. I’m seeing more variety not less. Please tell me what this super team is so I can start using it. Please!

I won multiple fights against full 5* teams turn 1 with Colossus (fantasticar) and 2->5 Nightcrawler (purple infinity stone). Before that I won fights turn0 with 1->5 Spiderman and Juggernaut. I lost fights to that team as well. This week I'm winning fights with Yellowjacket (infinity stone+ free green supports).

I've lost plenty of fights on offense to m'Thor + Riri (free green supports).

Well there you go. I already admitted 1s5 spidey boost week was turn 1-able. I thoroughly enjoyed that week. You didn’t. Agree to disagree. Few people have 2a5 NC, and I don’t know that I saw it once while colossus was boosted, so that’s not a team that is destroying player agency. I also ran YJ this week, and it was fast but certainly not a killer team. Plenty of people ran 2x boosted or 2x unboosted 550’s last event, so player agency was saved! Still not seeing loss of agency. Sorry try again. Also, just to be clear, it’s worse than you think. 1 minute fights were my goal pre-support. That’s still my goal, but now it’s much easier to achieve AND again I’m seeing a wider variety of opponents to choose from, so I’m spending less time selecting opponents. I actively avoid the last 3 hours of an event because there are a lot of folks with big rosters throwing their weight around, so my experience might be different if I tried to play then. If you enjoy it, more power to you. Again, agency! Choice! Options!

@entrailbucket said:

show previous quotes

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I've not measured the difference in time to be honest. As you've alluded to above, you fill the time you've got. I tend to play PvE last thing at night and first thing in the morning. If I'm pushing for 25 wins on PvP, I get less sleep because I play PvE as late as possible and PvP before that. Last night, I stopped at 16 wins. Previously I'd have stopped at 7 or even not played at all, because if you start your climb with too little time there's no point going much beyond that.

I come back to the point about targets: if you want to score a high as possible, you play for an hour and get 25 wins. If you speed it up, you might get 30. If you're playing for wins, you achieve your target in 50 minutes rather than an hour. It's not because you want to play less, it's because wins 25 - 30 don't do much. I'm not prepared to have 10 mins less sleep for them.

I guess I come back to enjoying the time I spend playing the game. I like matching 3 and doing fights, and sometimes I don't have much time for it due to all of the factors you mentioned. But then I'll just spend the time I have matching 3 and doing fights and score whatever.

The way some folks talk makes MPQ sound like a chore or a box-checking exercise, and not a fun game. Do you look forward to playing the game, or dread it ("ugh, gotta play PvP tonight!")? Do you enjoy it, or just do it out of habit? Do you have other activities that you enjoy, but want to spend as little time on as possible?

Can't it be both? We all know that players on this forum have sunk cost fallacy working against them but that doesn't mean wanting to play less means not enjoying less does it?

Can it? Can you think of other things you love doing, that you want to do for as little time as possible? Do you listen to music you love on fast forward? Do you purposely schedule your vacations for a shorter period of time, so you can get them over with?

I might fast forward to my favourite bits even though I love the whole album, sure! Why not? I still love the album! But then again I like PvP!

By the way...does anyone actually know what this argument is about any more?!?!?

@DAZ0273 said:
By the way...does anyone actually know what this argument is about any more?!?!?

Some of the players who like supports in PvP hate PvP in general but feel forced to play it for whatever reason. They like supports because they let them spend less time playing the game, which they view as universally good.

Some players who don't like supports in PvP enjoyed PvP pre -supports, and feel that they make fights too easy, fast, or random, and basically rob players of in-game agency.

It's not really a resolvable argument, but I do love having it every time. I love the little dance some folks have to do to pretend that they still like playing this game, even though they obviously hate everything about it but are unwilling or unable to walk away.

I don't think the devs should be taking suggestions or making changes to benefit the sunk-cost people, because nothing will ever make them happy, and the stuff they want will kill the enjoyment of the game for the folks who actually still like it.

@entrailbucket said:

show previous quotes

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Scofie said:

@entrailbucket said:

@ArchusMonk said:

@Borstock said:

PvP is half of the game. If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. I want at least the illusion that there's something I personally do that affects my success or failure. That is gone and I am sad about that.

I don't think you were responding directly to me, but if you were, as I made clear, I actually enjoy PVP now with supports in the game, so I'll turn your words around on you - PvP is half the game. (Supports are in PvP now.) If you don't enjoy it, that's fine, but maybe this game isn't for you. For me, supports have speeded up my game, but other than the week with boosted 1a5 Spidey, it has not made every event easy-mode. I still have to play matches. They just end more quickly, and I can choose tougher opponents. I don't have the kind of roster where I can just set some supports, then win every match without thinking about it. If you're truly sad that you've lost agency in determining your success or failure in PVP, there's a simple solution. You can get it back by NOT USING SUPPORTS. That is absolutely a real, non-illusory choice that you can make that will affect your success or failure. However, what I think what you're really sad about is that other people at your level of play have the ability to make super strong teams with supports, so you feel like you have to as well, and because of that your fights are being won or lost in the first round depending on whose supports fired. Since I don't play at that level, that's not a problem I'm having.

It's not. This is a competitive multiplayer game. If we choose to unilaterally disarm, we lose.

It's the same thing in PvE. Players nominally have a "choice." They can either use a turn0 team, or lose. That is not a real choice.

I understand that many of you don't care about competing, but the developers clearly mean MPQ to be competitive game. Every single event has a leaderboard, and the vast majority of them have placement rewards. We are not the ones who are "doing it wrong" by competing.

It depends what you mean by "competing" or what your target is. On a fight per fight basis you can win every time. I now target T25 or T50 in PvP depending on boost lists and amount of free time. If I get T25 I am amazed and pleased. I don't need to be number 1. I resigned myself to never being number 1 again after my 1 success where I hit a bracket flip just right and played for 45 minutes solid for the win about 9 years ago. But hitting 25 wins is something I can do some/most of the time. Supports now mean that the chance of that is higher because I have a limited window to play in.
And it's not that I can't be bothered to match more 3s or I hate the game or anything else. It's that I'm at a point in my life where I like sleep, the dog needs a walk, the children would break things without intervention and not go to bed, I just don't have the time to spend 3 hours a day on a game.
And for the health of the game, the more people that never really played PvP but now will because they can make the time for a match or 2, the better.

How much has the time investment changed? How long did matches take you before? Despite a ton of matches ending turn0, I'm spending roughly the same amount of time overall.

When I talked to some PvE players awhile ago about the rise of the turn0 meta, they talked about how it was better because it took less time, and spending less time was universally good.

That time change? Something like 20 minutes went down to 12 or 13. I realize that adds up over years, but are you really ever in a situation where you've got 12 minutes to play, but 20 minutes is just way too much?

I've not measured the difference in time to be honest. As you've alluded to above, you fill the time you've got. I tend to play PvE last thing at night and first thing in the morning. If I'm pushing for 25 wins on PvP, I get less sleep because I play PvE as late as possible and PvP before that. Last night, I stopped at 16 wins. Previously I'd have stopped at 7 or even not played at all, because if you start your climb with too little time there's no point going much beyond that.

I come back to the point about targets: if you want to score a high as possible, you play for an hour and get 25 wins. If you speed it up, you might get 30. If you're playing for wins, you achieve your target in 50 minutes rather than an hour. It's not because you want to play less, it's because wins 25 - 30 don't do much. I'm not prepared to have 10 mins less sleep for them.

I guess I come back to enjoying the time I spend playing the game. I like matching 3 and doing fights, and sometimes I don't have much time for it due to all of the factors you mentioned. But then I'll just spend the time I have matching 3 and doing fights and score whatever.

The way some folks talk makes MPQ sound like a chore or a box-checking exercise, and not a fun game. Do you look forward to playing the game, or dread it ("ugh, gotta play PvP tonight!")? Do you enjoy it, or just do it out of habit? Do you have other activities that you enjoy, but want to spend as little time on as possible?

Can't it be both? We all know that players on this forum have sunk cost fallacy working against them but that doesn't mean wanting to play less means not enjoying less does it?

Can it? Can you think of other things you love doing, that you want to do for as little time as possible? Do you listen to music you love on fast forward? Do you purposely schedule your vacations for a shorter period of time, so you can get them over with?

I might fast forward to my favourite bits even though I love the whole album, sure! Why not? I still love the album! But then again I like PvP!

Would you ever say your goal is to minimize time spent listening to your favorite songs?

Like, "I love Weird Al Yankovich, my goal every day is to listen to his entire discography in the fastest possible time, just to get it over with!"

I would solve that problem by not knowing who Weird Al Yankovich is firstly but otherwise remember he did that terrible Michael Jackson parody song so definitely fast forward that. I have no problem otherwise sometimes cherry picking what I listen to. Why not? I get maximum pleasure for best time invested. That doesn't mean I don't like the album.

The metaphor doesn't work for what you're talking about. These folks aren't skipping a few bits of PvP that they don't like to get to the parts they do -- they don't like any of it and would prefer to fast forward through the entire thing.

So sort of like reading your posts?

I kid, I kid! 😉😀

@DAZ0273 said:

show previous quotes

@entrailbucket said:

@DAZ0273 said:
By the way...does anyone actually know what this argument is about any more?!?!?

Some of the players who like supports in PvP hate PvP in general but feel forced to play it for whatever reason. They like supports because they let them spend less time playing the game, which they view as universally good.

Some players who don't like supports in PvP enjoyed PvP pre -supports, and feel that they make fights too easy, fast, or random, and basically rob players of in-game agency.

It's not really a resolvable argument, but I do love having it every time. I love the little dance some folks have to do to pretend that they still like playing this game, even though they obviously hate everything about it but are unwilling or unable to walk away.

I don't think the devs should be taking suggestions or making changes to benefit the sunk-cost people, because nothing will ever make them happy, and the stuff they want will kill the enjoyment of the game for the folks who actually still like it.

Can we not wait and see what the result of this test is?

We're feeding back, here! They asked to be fed back!