Chasm - Coming Soon???

@entrailbucket said:

@KGB said:

@entrailbucket said:
This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

That's an interesting take on what you consider an effective Chasm counter to be. It would mean that the character doesn't actually have to beat Chasm at all, but rather just be more difficult to beat on defense so that players wanted to leave that character out instead of Chasm. Would that really be considered a counter to him or simply a replacement meta on defense?

I suspect the reason there is a still wall of Chasms out there is because the non-550 crowd simply has him (and a few other characters) at much higher levels than the rest of their roster. As most of us know, players tend to have the best characters at the highest levels so for someone with a baby champed roster with most characters in the 450 range, they tend to get their Chasms/Shangs/Apocs/Okoyes/MThors etc into the 480-500 range. That means those characters are still preferential to use over 450's because of the +30-50 levels and that boosted characters are only 50-70 levels better than their non-boosted Meta characters which isn't enough to get them to use those non-boosted characters. So it's the age old problem of meta characters in general being a lot better than non-meta instead of being just a little bit better. That's why Chasm counters that aren't themselves meta don't appear much in queues.

KGB

There is a wall of Chasms because he's the best character in the game by like a million miles. He beats everything, including all of his "counters," trivially.

He literally cannot die. He has a free full-team stun that completely disables some of the best passives in the game, and he stuns the entire team every time he resurrects. He has a bigger match damage increase than Colossus, he has an EXTRA passive damage hit every turn, and he passively drains enemy AP to the point where it's impossible for the AI to ever cast anything.

He wins matches for you, passively, with zero player thought or effort, and essentially zero risk of losing or ever having to use health packs.

This is exactly the reason why gambit and bishop were nerfed. It's fine if a character is really good at one thing, or even a couple things, but they were great at everything.

Gambit generated ap, drained ap, removed special tiles, completely shut down your team and did massive damage while doing it. Bishop stun locked your team, reduced damage, retaliated for that damage, remove special tiles passively, and generated ap passively. They did too many things too well.

If chasm just revived but didn't drain ap, or drained ap but didn't stun, or stunned but didn't also heal he might be fine. The problem is he does everything and does it passively. You can't have a character that is great defensively because they heal and revive, AND great offensively because they do huge damage passively, AND shuts down the enemies offensive ability because they drain the ap they need for their powers AND prevents the other teams set up strategies because he turns off first turn passives.

He does too much too well, just like gambit did in his time and bishop did in his. Its not healthy for the game to have one singular character that is extremely better then the next best characters.

@LavaManLee said:

@DrClever said:
Electro + HEvo makes that combination difficult to lose to.

Out of curiosity, what do you spec Electro and HEvo to and do you use boosts? Thanks.

I never remember boosts unless I have a daily task to use them.

HEvo at 355.

iHulk AoE means free yellow from Electro which means free health and damage boost for HEvo whose black sees off Chasm with two successive uses.

@BriMan2222 said:
AND prevents the other teams set up strategies because he turns off first turn passives.

IMO this should be addressed by making them first active turn effects.

I quite like the first round team stun (leaving aside the question of whether Chasm in particular should have it on top of everything else) but that secondary effect spoils too much.

@DrClever said:

@LavaManLee said:

@DrClever said:
Electro + HEvo makes that combination difficult to lose to.

Out of curiosity, what do you spec Electro and HEvo to and do you use boosts? Thanks.

I never remember boosts unless I have a daily task to use them.

HEvo at 355.

iHulk AoE means free yellow from Electro which means free health and damage boost for HEvo whose black sees off Chasm with two successive uses.

I must have done something wrong. Tried this twice in Lightning Round and got totally massacred both times. Definitely didn't work.

@DrClever said:

@entrailbucket said:
Why would anyone sane ever use anyone else?

Well that's dealt something of a blow to my optimism for us as a species.

I wonder what percentage of players complaining about the ubiquity of Chasm are also regularly playing Chasm.

But it does present an interesting way out of this - how about hiding Chasm teams from players that haven't used Chasm in the past month?

Probably a lot, to be honest. Unless you're like me and refuse to use him out of pure, dumb spite, accepting a massive competitive disadvantage for doing so, any player who's trying to win will need to use him. The alternative is losing.

Hiding these teams would just be a free shield for them, so that's right out.

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:
Probably a lot, to be honest. Unless you're like me and refuse to use him out of pure, dumb spite, accepting a massive competitive disadvantage for doing so, any player who's trying to win will need to use him. The alternative is losing.

Not quite true. I am lucky enough, though, to have a 550 SC and a 505 MT. I never use Chasm in PVP as I find him boring and a slog. I still manage T20ish or so depending on the event.

What kinds of offensive teams win against your defensive team in PvP?

I’m repeatedly hitting the like icon on entrailbucket’s posts. Sure, there are “counters” that allow the player to beat Hulk/Chasm out there, but those aren’t true counters in my mind bc the retaliation is a simple one.

Hulkoye teams trying to retaliate against Colossus/Wanda didn’t have the success rate Hulk/Chasm does hitting whatever combination is used to beat them. If you’re playing competitively and want to minimize shield usage leaving Hulk/Chasm is still clearly the way to go. And yes, Chasm is intensely boring to use but that doesn’t detract from him being the game’s biggest security blanket (particularly with the difficulty mirror matches still provide).

@DrClever said:

@entrailbucket said:
Hiding [ Chasm ] teams would just be a free shield for them, so that's right out.

Possibly. So.

Players who have used Chasm in the past month play in their own separate game entirely. We can't see them, they can't see us. Our choice to spare the player base from more Chasm isn't punished.

For the pro-nerf brigade he's effectively sponged to oblivion.

For the anti-nerfers - all the full fat Chasmy goodness they can stomach.

For those of us that just wanted Chasm to be fun - well, tough; chasms simply are not and never shall be fun, that's why the most common adjective used with them is 'yawning'.

Love this idea! "I heard you like Chasm so we put a Chasm in your Chasm, so you can Chasm while you Chasm!"

@entrailbucket said:
The hilarious-but-actually-sad part about your idea is that the game is already attempting to do something similar, via matchmaking, and the huge disparity in relative power levels ruins it.

The matchmaking algorithm tries really hard (sometimes successfully, sometimes not), to hide enemies that are too strong for you. It does this using a combination of stars and levels -- the assumption it makes is that if you've got lvl450 5*, you can take on other lvl450 5*, etc. If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you.

This all works great, until the game assumes that a 450 Chasm is as good as a 450 Black Widow, or Abigail, or OML. If certain characters are meant to just be better than others, at equivalent star tier/level, then someone needs to rework just about every mechanic in the game to take that into account.

Here we go again.
It's been at least 4 weeks since you posted that!

Everyone in this thread has posted everything they've said in this thread at least 1000 times in the last year or so. These arguments never go anywhere.

What's funny is that I remember having exactly the same arguments about Gambit, and Bishop, and Thor, and Ragnarok, and Spiderman, and Magneto, and every single other overpowered MPQ character forever.

I'm still waiting for "of course Chasm is strong, he's a superhero! Superheroes should be strong!"