I thought this pvp game wasn't about easy or hard characters to beat. It's about speed. Characters shouldn't be hard to beat or having to beat them in a specific order, or being stun from the start and having to take a serious beat-up without having the option to do anything, or matching gems for to try to keep your AP for when it's the right time: just to kill fast. Any other of those mentioned scenarios should belong to another game. Because the 95% of characters in this game work in the old way.
I’m repeatedly hitting the like icon on entrailbucket’s posts. Sure, there are “counters” that allow the player to beat Hulk/Chasm out there, but those aren’t true counters in my mind bc the retaliation is a simple one.
Hulkoye teams trying to retaliate against Colossus/Wanda didn’t have the success rate Hulk/Chasm does hitting whatever combination is used to beat them. If you’re playing competitively and want to minimize shield usage leaving Hulk/Chasm is still clearly the way to go. And yes, Chasm is intensely boring to use but that doesn’t detract from him being the game’s biggest security blanket (particularly with the difficulty mirror matches still provide).
@entrailbucket said: Hiding [ Chasm ] teams would just be a free shield for them, so that's right out.
Possibly. So.
Players who have used Chasm in the past month play in their own separate game entirely. We can't see them, they can't see us. Our choice to spare the player base from more Chasm isn't punished.
For the pro-nerf brigade he's effectively sponged to oblivion.
For the anti-nerfers - all the full fat Chasmy goodness they can stomach.
For those of us that just wanted Chasm to be fun - well, tough; chasms simply are not and never shall be fun, that's why the most common adjective used with them is 'yawning'.
@DrClever said: @entrailbucket said: Hiding [ Chasm ] teams would just be a free shield for them, so that's right out. Possibly. So. Players who have used Chasm in the past month play in their own separate game entirely. We can't see them, they can't see us. Our choice to spare the player base from more Chasm isn't punished. For the pro-nerf brigade he's effectively sponged to oblivion. For the anti-nerfers - all the full fat Chasmy goodness they can stomach. For those of us that just wanted Chasm to be fun - well, tough; chasms simply are not and never shall be fun, that's why the most common adjective used with them is 'yawning'.
@DrClever said:
Love this idea! "I heard you like Chasm so we put a Chasm in your Chasm, so you can Chasm while you Chasm!"
The hilarious-but-actually-sad part about your idea is that the game is already attempting to do something similar, via matchmaking, and the huge disparity in relative power levels ruins it.
The matchmaking algorithm tries really hard (sometimes successfully, sometimes not), to hide enemies that are too strong for you. It does this using a combination of stars and levels -- the assumption it makes is that if you've got lvl450 5*, you can take on other lvl450 5*, etc. If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you.
This all works great, until the game assumes that a 450 Chasm is as good as a 450 Black Widow, or Abigail, or OML. If certain characters are meant to just be better than others, at equivalent star tier/level, then someone needs to rework just about every mechanic in the game to take that into account.
@entrailbucket said: The hilarious-but-actually-sad part about your idea is that the game is already attempting to do something similar, via matchmaking, and the huge disparity in relative power levels ruins it. The matchmaking algorithm tries really hard (sometimes successfully, sometimes not), to hide enemies that are too strong for you. It does this using a combination of stars and levels -- the assumption it makes is that if you've got lvl450 5*, you can take on other lvl450 5*, etc. If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you. This all works great, until the game assumes that a 450 Chasm is as good as a 450 Black Widow, or Abigail, or OML. If certain characters are meant to just be better than others, at equivalent star tier/level, then someone needs to rework just about every mechanic in the game to take that into account.
@entrailbucket said: The hilarious-but-actually-sad part about your idea is that the game is already attempting to do something similar, via matchmaking, and the huge disparity in relative power levels ruins it.
Here we go again. It's been at least 4 weeks since you posted that!
@Bowgentle said: @entrailbucket said: The hilarious-but-actually-sad part about your idea is that the game is already attempting to do something similar, via matchmaking, and the huge disparity in relative power levels ruins it. The matchmaking algorithm tries really hard (sometimes successfully, sometimes not), to hide enemies that are too strong for you. It does this using a combination of stars and levels -- the assumption it makes is that if you've got lvl450 5*, you can take on other lvl450 5*, etc. If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you. This all works great, until the game assumes that a 450 Chasm is as good as a 450 Black Widow, or Abigail, or OML. If certain characters are meant to just be better than others, at equivalent star tier/level, then someone needs to rework just about every mechanic in the game to take that into account. Here we go again. It's been at least 4 weeks since you posted that!
@Bowgentle said:
I wont search but seems a lot less than 4 weeks
Everyone in this thread has posted everything they've said in this thread at least 1000 times in the last year or so. These arguments never go anywhere.
What's funny is that I remember having exactly the same arguments about Gambit, and Bishop, and Thor, and Ragnarok, and Spiderman, and Magneto, and every single other overpowered MPQ character forever.
I'm still waiting for "of course Chasm is strong, he's a superhero! Superheroes should be strong!"
@entrailbucket said: Everyone in this thread has posted everything they've said in this thread at least 1000 times in the last year or so. These arguments never go anywhere. What's funny is that I remember having exactly the same arguments about Gambit, and Bishop, and Thor, and Ragnarok, and Spiderman, and Magneto, and every single other overpowered MPQ character forever. I'm still waiting for "of course Chasm is strong, he's a superhero! Superheroes should be strong!"
@entrailbucket said: Everyone in this thread has posted everything they've said in this thread at least 1000 times in the last year or so. These arguments never go anywhere.
It's a shame we lost the "the devs release a new meta every X months look it up!" Guy.
@entrailbucket said: @LavaManLee said: @entrailbucket said: Probably a lot, to be honest. Unless you're like me and refuse to use him out of pure, dumb spite, accepting a massive competitive disadvantage for doing so, any player who's trying to win will need to use him. The alternative is losing. Not quite true. I am lucky enough, though, to have a 550 SC and a 505 MT. I never use Chasm in PVP as I find him boring and a slog. I still manage T20ish or so depending on the event. What kinds of offensive teams win against your defensive team in PvP?
@entrailbucket said:
@LavaManLee said: @entrailbucket said: Probably a lot, to be honest. Unless you're like me and refuse to use him out of pure, dumb spite, accepting a massive competitive disadvantage for doing so, any player who's trying to win will need to use him. The alternative is losing. Not quite true. I am lucky enough, though, to have a 550 SC and a 505 MT. I never use Chasm in PVP as I find him boring and a slog. I still manage T20ish or so depending on the event.
@LavaManLee said:
@entrailbucket said: Probably a lot, to be honest. Unless you're like me and refuse to use him out of pure, dumb spite, accepting a massive competitive disadvantage for doing so, any player who's trying to win will need to use him. The alternative is losing.
Not quite true. I am lucky enough, though, to have a 550 SC and a 505 MT. I never use Chasm in PVP as I find him boring and a slog. I still manage T20ish or so depending on the event.
What kinds of offensive teams win against your defensive team in PvP?
It rarely has Chasm/iHulk. Normally it is either another MT/SC team or it is a boosted team (when 5* are boosted).
@entrailbucket said: If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you.
Just in case you're tracking this sort of thing, that's not (any longer?) true.
My highest toon is level 483 and I was seeing 550s in the Daredevil PvP after 20-something wins.
@DrClever said: @entrailbucket said: If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you. Just in case you're tracking this sort of thing, that's not (any longer?) true. My highest toon is level 483 and I was seeing 550s in the Daredevil PvP after 20-something wins.
So...that's interesting, but it can happen under certain (fairly atypical) conditions. We'd have to know a little more about your score, those teams' point values, time remaining, slice, etc.
If something big changed with matchmaking, we'd likely have noticed that by now, so I'm guessing you were just the beneficiary (?) of some weird circumstances.
@entrailbucket said: @DrClever said: @entrailbucket said: If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you. Just in case you're tracking this sort of thing, that's not (any longer?) true. My highest toon is level 483 and I was seeing 550s in the Daredevil PvP after 20-something wins. So...that's interesting, but it can happen under certain (fairly atypical) conditions. We'd have to know a little more about your score, those teams' point values, time remaining, slice, etc. If something big changed with matchmaking, we'd likely have noticed that by now, so I'm guessing you were just the beneficiary (?) of some weird circumstances.
I actually cannot see them, but for sure they can see me if I wander above 1k
@pepitedechocolat said: @entrailbucket said: @DrClever said: @entrailbucket said: If you don't have 550 characters, 550 teams are completely invisible to you. Just in case you're tracking this sort of thing, that's not (any longer?) true. My highest toon is level 483 and I was seeing 550s in the Daredevil PvP after 20-something wins. So...that's interesting, but it can happen under certain (fairly atypical) conditions. We'd have to know a little more about your score, those teams' point values, time remaining, slice, etc. If something big changed with matchmaking, we'd likely have noticed that by now, so I'm guessing you were just the beneficiary (?) of some weird circumstances. I actually cannot see them, but for sure they can see me if I wander above 1k
@pepitedechocolat said:
That is absolutely normal.
@entrailbucket said: If the Chasm counters were effective, Chasm would be easy to beat. If Chasm was easy to beat, people would stop using him. If people stopped using him, we wouldn't see a wall of Chasm teams in these unboosted events. Since the wall is still there, the counters haven't worked.
@entrailbucket said: If the Chasm counters were effective, Chasm would be easy to beat.
If Chasm was easy to beat, people would stop using him.
If people stopped using him, we wouldn't see a wall of Chasm teams in these unboosted events.
Since the wall is still there, the counters haven't worked.
Excellent use of the post hoc ergo propter hoc here, just wanted to give props where they were due. Despite the obviously trolly logical fallacy used here I did get to thinking.
Because I am just as stubborn as a mule I decided this morning to challenge your post with an exercise. I floated around 800 overnight in slice 4 with the dreaded Chasm/iHulk team to see if they were simply too tough for others to beat and then this morning came back and only retaliated against teams that used Chasm in their attack.
When I drifted into the sweet sleep that only Jameson and beer provide for me I was at exactly 822 points and sitting at 23rd in my bracket with 12 hours to go, prime time zombie time. According to your "analysis" my very hard to beat team of a 266 Daredevil, 464 4/5/4 Chasm and 435 5/3/5 iHulk stayed out unshielded in an offseason event with much less on the line for most players so why would they even bother with me right? I mean I'm running the big bad, and with an underleveled Hulk at that, not even bothering to put in a loaner Daredevil to troll the kids.
I woke up, splashed some water on my face and opened up the app. Hit 11 times for 220 points with a single sad blue thrown in amongst the sea of reds. Surely my very hard to beat team must have turned away the hordes of players clamoring for glory in this offseason event and that is why I only took a 25% beatdown?
Gave myself a solid 35 minutes before the end of the event to reclimb (I really wanted that last Kate cover to make her my 6th maxed 4*). Skipped the 6 mThor teams that didn't use a Chasm, don't know what they were thinking, haven't they heard the proclamation that Chasm is too hard to beat? Also skipped the Shang-Chi/Kang team, that one needs to get added to my burgeoning group of fun troll counter teams but it didn't fit the bill for this exercise.
That left me with 4 Chasm teams left to chew through down 220 points from the night before with just 25 minutes to finish the event. Facing a team as difficult to beat as the might Chasm/iHulk x2 and or the mighty Chasm/Kang x2 I should have probably dipped deep into my boosts but that would be cheating. If they truly are such a terrible foe I must face them at full power with no cheating allowed. I brought only mbw team ups because using Prof X here would just be overkill.
4 matches later in 18 minutes I was back to 818 and a solid 24th place. I ate a donut, sipped some coffee and wondered how I had managed to take down such an tough to beat squad 4 times.
TLDR: easy ≠ quick
@revskip said: @entrailbucket said: If the Chasm counters were effective, Chasm would be easy to beat. If Chasm was easy to beat, people would stop using him. If people stopped using him, we wouldn't see a wall of Chasm teams in these unboosted events. Since the wall is still there, the counters haven't worked. Excellent use of the post hoc ergo propter hoc here, just wanted to give props where they were due. Despite the obviously trolly logical fallacy used here I did get to thinking. Because I am just as stubborn as a mule I decided this morning to challenge your post with an exercise. I floated around 800 overnight in slice 4 with the dreaded Chasm/iHulk team to see if they were simply too tough for others to beat and then this morning came back and only retaliated against teams that used Chasm in their attack. When I drifted into the sweet sleep that only Jameson and beer provide for me I was at exactly 822 points and sitting at 23rd in my bracket with 12 hours to go, prime time zombie time. According to your "analysis" my very hard to beat team of a 266 Daredevil, 464 4/5/4 Chasm and 435 5/3/5 iHulk stayed out unshielded in an offseason event with much less on the line for most players so why would they even bother with me right? I mean I'm running the big bad, and with an underleveled Hulk at that, not even bothering to put in a loaner Daredevil to troll the kids. I woke up, splashed some water on my face and opened up the app. Hit 11 times for 220 points with a single sad blue thrown in amongst the sea of reds. Surely my very hard to beat team must have turned away the hordes of players clamoring for glory in this offseason event and that is why I only took a 25% beatdown? Gave myself a solid 35 minutes before the end of the event to reclimb (I really wanted that last Kate cover to make her my 6th maxed 4*). Skipped the 6 mThor teams that didn't use a Chasm, don't know what they were thinking, haven't they heard the proclamation that Chasm is too hard to beat? Also skipped the Shang-Chi/Kang team, that one needs to get added to my burgeoning group of fun troll counter teams but it didn't fit the bill for this exercise. That left me with 4 Chasm teams left to chew through down 220 points from the night before with just 25 minutes to finish the event. Facing a team as difficult to beat as the might Chasm/iHulk x2 and or the mighty Chasm/Kang x2 I should have probably dipped deep into my boosts but that would be cheating. If they truly are such a terrible foe I must face them at full power with no cheating allowed. I brought only mbw team ups because using Prof X here would just be overkill. 4 matches later in 18 minutes I was back to 818 and a solid 24th place. I ate a donut, sipped some coffee and wondered how I had managed to take down such an tough to beat squad 4 times. TLDR: easy ≠ quick
@revskip said:
I read all of this, understood about half of it, and honestly have no idea what your point is. Are you saying Chasm shouldn't be nerfed?
@entrailbucket said: I read all of this, understood about half of it, and honestly have no idea what your point is. Are you saying Chasm shouldn't be nerfed?
Yes. That's what they are hoping and praying for it like if it was the waters of March.
In any case, try to do that without a chahulk team, and then you tell me how much they stomped you.
I don’t know what this proves either. You only got attacked 11 times and actually won one. That’s pretty good. Who’s to say that if you didn’t put up a different team you would’ve been attacked way more.
And of course you were able to get the points back in just 4 matches. You climbed off chasm teams. In my MMR those are the only teams worth any points because they get to float so high. And it’s boring having to choose chasm/hulk for 40+ over and over again. Or take on a boosted duo for like 18.
@Bad said: praying for it like if it was the waters of March.
That's a very poetic turn of phrase. May I ask, are you in/from the southern hemisphere?
Yikes...All Chasm after only 5 wins in Doc Ock? I think he is reading this thread...