Chasm - Coming Soon???

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  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    If the Chasm counters were effective, Chasm would be easy to beat.

    If Chasm was easy to beat, people would stop using him.

    If people stopped using him, we wouldn't see a wall of Chasm teams in these unboosted events.

    Since the wall is still there, the counters haven't worked.

    Okay, so this is flawed as an argument but works as something like a definition of terms which is well overdue.

    Chasm is easy to beat - even those of us on the Chasm-is-awful side of things have said as much in this thread and others.

    In particular the combination of Chasm + iHulk is now very easy to beat, whereas it used to be seen by many as the real problem.

    So we can say the counters (whether they were designed as such or not) are effective by the first definition.

    But all teams are easy to beat - the AI is remarkably weak and the player base is so used to winning every game that losing one in twenty is seen as evidence of a wildly overpowered defensive team, and even taking damage is resented.

    So as KGB says, Chasm will only see reduced usage if he's easier to beat (and is recognised as easier to beat) than some other team that most people are able to put together - this may be happening, we don't have the data, but looks like he's still considered as the best option on defence in a game that offers next to nothing in the way of defensive options.

    So by the final definition the counters have failed.

    No wonder the bickering has been so tedious / enjoyable (select according to preference).

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker

    @DrClever said:
    Chasm is easy to beat - even those of us on the Chasm-is-awful side of things have said as much in this thread and others.

    Your statement here is misleading (or a troll)! Many people that admit to beat chasm also admit they spend their healthpack doing so, which is not really compatible with "easy to beat" chasm, if you need to use limited ressource to do so.

    besides I already explained it above : non 5* champ rosters struggle a lot to burn the 100+ level chasm they are offered, which is not true for any other 5*.
    (you can make a case for mthor cascading, but it is a different / rng problem)

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,505 Chairperson of the Boards

    The game offers nothing in the way of Defensive options because players are the ones who created "Defensive" teams, not the Devs. If anybody thinks that the release of Scarlet Witch & Colossus next to each other was intended as an intentional "meta" then I think this would be news to the Devs who created them. You would think that it would be obvious that having two characters who can endlessly revive would be a big red flag to the Devs but clearly not - mostly because their playtesting is based on looking for bugs and flaws and whether the character is performing within the parameters of the design budget, not potentially broken interactions that stop players from gaining wins. If they were aware of it they obviously weren't concerned, most likely because at that point they had no reliable in game data to use which is understandable.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 11,505 Chairperson of the Boards

    @pepitedechocolat said:

    @DrClever said:
    Chasm is easy to beat - even those of us on the Chasm-is-awful side of things have said as much in this thread and others.

    Your statement here is misleading (or a troll)! Many people that admit to beat chasm also admit they spend their healthpack doing so, which is not really compatible with "easy to beat" chasm, if you need to use limited ressource to do so.

    besides I already explained it above : non 5* champ rosters struggle a lot to burn the 100+ level chasm they are offered, which is not true for any other 5*.
    (you can make a case for mthor cascading, but it is a different / rng problem)

    Health packs are not a limited resource. They regenerate for free. If players are fighting against Chasm they are most likely 5* players or soft capped and such players should have multiple options to acquire additional health packs as they might need. Many such players have hundreds of hoarded health packs.

    Where are non 5* players coming across 100+ level difference Chasm in non Chasm boost weeks? How could they see them unless they have broken MMR? If they have broken MMR presumably they did so climbing off non-Chasm teams?

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @DAZ0273 said:
    the REAL issue with Chasm?

    He is boring. He is boring to fight against. He is boring to use.

    Oh, god, so much this.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @pepitedechocolat said:

    @DrClever said:
    Chasm is easy to beat

    Your statement here is misleading (or a troll)! Many people that admit to beat chasm also admit they spend their healthpack doing so

    I'm not trying to mislead.

    He's easy to beat. When you try and beat him you almost always succeed.

    Things that can almost always be achieved are easy.

    You might use a health pack afterwards but that doesn't change the fact that he was beaten.

    If the game abandoned health packs and just healed to full at the end of each game Chasm wouldn't be any easier or harder to beat.

    The worst you could possibly say is that Chasm's the hardest character to beat in the whole game. I don't think that's true in every sense any more, but even if it was it's something that has to be true of one character or another.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DrClever said:

    even those of us on the Chasm-is-awful side of things have said as much in this thread and others.

    That made me laugh. Thanks!

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

    An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @entrailbucket said:
    This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

    Strong disagree. The most difficult of a set of easy things is still easy. It's redefining "difficult" to attach it to something that is generally likely to be achieved if attempted.

    An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

    This simply does not follow logically.

    Although fwiw if you define "difficult to beat" as "more likely to beat you" which seems like one possible option then for me at the moment MThor outranks Chasm.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,754 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

    An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

    That's an interesting take on what you consider an effective Chasm counter to be. It would mean that the character doesn't actually have to beat Chasm at all, but rather just be more difficult to beat on defense so that players wanted to leave that character out instead of Chasm. Would that really be considered a counter to him or simply a replacement meta on defense?

    I suspect the reason there is a still wall of Chasms out there is because the non-550 crowd simply has him (and a few other characters) at much higher levels than the rest of their roster. As most of us know, players tend to have the best characters at the highest levels so for someone with a baby champed roster with most characters in the 450 range, they tend to get their Chasms/Shangs/Apocs/Okoyes/MThors etc into the 480-500 range. That means those characters are still preferential to use over 450's because of the +30-50 levels and that boosted characters are only 50-70 levels better than their non-boosted Meta characters which isn't enough to get them to use those non-boosted characters. So it's the age old problem of meta characters in general being a lot better than non-meta instead of being just a little bit better. That's why Chasm counters that aren't themselves meta don't appear much in queues.

    KGB

  • pepitedechocolat
    pepitedechocolat Posts: 253 Mover and Shaker

    @DAZ0273 said:

    Where are non 5* players coming across 100+ level difference Chasm in non Chasm boost weeks? How could they see them unless they have broken MMR? If they have broken MMR presumably they did so climbing off non-Chasm teams?

    PVP post 900 points in attack, and post 600 in retaliation, in both cases u have very big chasms that act as roadblock, and I'm pretty sure at these level anyone who see a non chasm opponent will take it over a chasm opponent
    I dont know what you call broken mmr.

    @DrClever said:

    Things that can almost always be achieved are easy.

    Interesting definition. I disagree with it. you cannot look at "thing done" without looking at the cost of doing it, and the requirements for doing it. in this case you need pretty specific teams, and it will cost you time and HP. Also you need to compare alternatives. If you need to go to a place 50km away, you can walk 10 hours go get there, its "easy", but in a world where you can take a train and be there in 30 minutes its extremely tedious and ineffective.

    so ofc give me 10M iso and 20 grand I will manage to go to 5* land and get chasm counters covered, then chasm will be "easier". Immortal bros will still be hard compared to most other defensive 5* team. They will still cost time and HP too

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2023

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

    An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

    That's an interesting take on what you consider an effective Chasm counter to be. It would mean that the character doesn't actually have to beat Chasm at all, but rather just be more difficult to beat on defense so that players wanted to leave that character out instead of Chasm. Would that really be considered a counter to him or simply a replacement meta on defense?

    I suspect the reason there is a still wall of Chasms out there is because the non-550 crowd simply has him (and a few other characters) at much higher levels than the rest of their roster. As most of us know, players tend to have the best characters at the highest levels so for someone with a baby champed roster with most characters in the 450 range, they tend to get their Chasms/Shangs/Apocs/Okoyes/MThors etc into the 480-500 range. That means those characters are still preferential to use over 450's because of the +30-50 levels and that boosted characters are only 50-70 levels better than their non-boosted Meta characters which isn't enough to get them to use those non-boosted characters. So it's the age old problem of meta characters in general being a lot better than non-meta instead of being just a little bit better. That's why Chasm counters that aren't themselves meta don't appear much in queues.

    KGB

    That hurts on so many levels.
    You have no idea what a 450 boosted by 100 levels does, with your softcapped roster.
    Any decent 5, boosted, will absolutely OBLITERATE a level 500 unboosted Jane.
    Like, boosted Surfer and Starlord decent.
    It's only Hulkasm that's still being run unboosted.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DrClever said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

    Strong disagree. The most difficult of a set of easy things is still easy. It's redefining "difficult" to attach it to something that is generally likely to be achieved if attempted.

    An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

    This simply does not follow logically.

    Although fwiw if you define "difficult to beat" as "more likely to beat you" which seems like one possible option then for me at the moment MThor outranks Chasm.

    At this point you're just arguing semantics vs addressing the actual issue.

    If there was an effective Chasm counter, there wouldn't be a wall of Chasm teams in every single event. That's the bar. Currently none of the counters are effective enough to reduce usage.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    This is just redefining the word "easy." If he's still the best defensive character in the game, then he's not "easy" to beat. That actually means that he's quite difficult to beat, when compared to all the other MPQ characters (and that's the only frame of reference that's relevant).

    An effective Chasm counter would mean that some other character has become the most difficult to beat.

    That's an interesting take on what you consider an effective Chasm counter to be. It would mean that the character doesn't actually have to beat Chasm at all, but rather just be more difficult to beat on defense so that players wanted to leave that character out instead of Chasm. Would that really be considered a counter to him or simply a replacement meta on defense?

    I suspect the reason there is a still wall of Chasms out there is because the non-550 crowd simply has him (and a few other characters) at much higher levels than the rest of their roster. As most of us know, players tend to have the best characters at the highest levels so for someone with a baby champed roster with most characters in the 450 range, they tend to get their Chasms/Shangs/Apocs/Okoyes/MThors etc into the 480-500 range. That means those characters are still preferential to use over 450's because of the +30-50 levels and that boosted characters are only 50-70 levels better than their non-boosted Meta characters which isn't enough to get them to use those non-boosted characters. So it's the age old problem of meta characters in general being a lot better than non-meta instead of being just a little bit better. That's why Chasm counters that aren't themselves meta don't appear much in queues.

    KGB

    There is a wall of Chasms because he's the best character in the game by like a million miles. He beats everything, including all of his "counters," trivially.

    He literally cannot die. He has a free full-team stun that completely disables some of the best passives in the game, and he stuns the entire team every time he resurrects. He has a bigger match damage increase than Colossus, he has an EXTRA passive damage hit every turn, and he passively drains enemy AP to the point where it's impossible for the AI to ever cast anything.

    He wins matches for you, passively, with zero player thought or effort, and essentially zero risk of losing or ever having to use health packs.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2023

    @pepitedechocolat said:
    Immortal bros will still be hard compared to most other defensive 5* team. They will still cost time and HP too

    Electro + HEvo makes that combination difficult to lose to.

    I accept that beating Chasm without the right tools is less straightforward but that applies to a lot of MPQ teams; no one much complains because they generally do have the right tools.

    It took me a while to work out, and then acquire the team to beat Chasm, but not as long as it took to get to the point where I could beat Hulkoye and waaay less time than it took to be able to beat name any 5star team you like after I got overenthusiastic with my early 5* covers.

    Chasm's ghastly and I look forward to seeing less of, and particularly about him, but in the meantime he can be dealt with.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 7,012 Chairperson of the Boards

    PvP is not a boss fight, and it's not a single-player game. It requires us to repeatedly, quickly win tens of fights, while we outpace multiple incoming attacks. There is no other character/team in the game that requires "special tools" to deal with, and this includes characters boosted to +100 or +200 levels higher than Chasm.

    Meanwhile the Chasm player requires no special tools. His team trivially wins every fight he takes on, against any combination of characters at any level.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    PvP is not a boss fight, and it's not a single-player game. It requires us to repeatedly, quickly win tens of fights, while we outpace multiple incoming attacks. There is no other character/team in the game that requires "special tools" to deal with, and this includes characters boosted to +100 or +200 levels higher than Chasm.

    Meanwhile the Chasm player requires no special tools. His team trivially wins every fight he takes on, against any combination of characters at any level.

    Except mirrors.
    Those can last hours.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,716 Chairperson of the Boards

    @DrClever said:
    Electro + HEvo makes that combination difficult to lose to.

    Out of curiosity, what do you spec Electro and HEvo to and do you use boosts? Thanks.

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