New Supports Experience Blog

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Comments

  • Mrcl25
    Mrcl25 Posts: 137 Tile Toppler

    @IceIX what about Infinity Stones? It's impossible for s5 players to place well enough in a season to get even one them. Will they be made available in other ways, like regular supports?

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think the big mess up was to release the support before getting the approvals and the announcement of this blog. Then I guessed (correctly) that the support was for pvp and they answered with an incorrect info. My guess for that:
    A. they truly didn't know if they could change the UI.
    B.they didn't wanted to ruin the awesome announcement and they lied (although they already messed it up releasing a support clearly oriented against chasm and in pvp).
    Either way, and because there is no way to prove anything, we must move on (without forgetting, of course, and personally thinking B is the right one).

    @Bzhai said:
    Guys can we not go down this rabbit hole again? Just put on your ignore goggles and let's focus on the main issue. If you feel strongly against the change in pvp it would be more beneficial to give the devs as much feedback and sentiment as possible.

    Yes. Explicitly said for them. This is positive as we will be heard and our feedback will be decisive. At least they aknowlege that they can't understand all the possible abuses and they need our help to test this new beta mode. So we must work here in game's benefit.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 103 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2023

    @ViralCore said:
    So instead of nerfing chasm, you're releasing supports in pvp that can only be equipped on some of the worse 5*s? While chasm gets to equip supports that reduce damage to him even further?

    Why fix something for free when they can monetize the fix?

    I realize that this is a game survives because folks spend money on it, but I'm 100% sure the same devs that released a busted-**** Chasm that broke the game on day one will have done a thorough and complete analysis of this decision.

  • fnedude
    fnedude Posts: 374 Mover and Shaker

    Two comments from me (I don't know if anyone's brought this up explicityly):

    1) I don't know how much the DEV's know how effective some Support combos are.
    For instance i use 1/2Thor+ShangChi+4Black Widow w/ 4Lucky (SC), +4Sanctum (Thor)+4*Sp/Dr (4BW) in PVE hard nodes. There are many times where I **START **with 10 yellow AP.

    Now obviously that team would get wasted in PVP and not be good, but I can easily change that out for 5Jane+5Shang+Essential and start w/ 8-10 yellow AP. Meaning I could cast 5Jane's yellow on Turn 1, even if i didn't get any yellow AP from her board shake power.

    2) If this is done, will the Supports be "assigned" to a character, or will we be fighting the 3 toons+3 stand alone supports? Supports that can't be 'killed' or turned off until the 3 heroes are killed?

    For instance, i take 5Chasm vs 5Strange+new TajMahal support. If i kill 5Strange, does the support that's "bound" to him is also 'killed', or does it last the whole battle, no matter who i kill? It matters obviously.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Seeing how many players acknowledge that Supports that give aps at start of game is broken, then, rationally, the dev should nerf all these supports?

  • mdreyer93
    mdreyer93 Posts: 144 Tile Toppler

    "most likely that if something like this were to come up, we'd make a modal PVE/PVP ability so that you could keep the PVE coolness without breaking everything in PVP or vice versa."

    I feel this hints at "X AP at start" supports possibly being a PVE only ability. For PVP use, Kamar-Taj's "reduce cost first time ability is used, to a minimum amount" seems like the new approach. I think this would be smart.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    The dev posted thrice in a "positive" support thread title in reddit. Here's the dev replies:

    One
    "Thanks for the post and praise! We're super excited to see supports play a much bigger roll as things progress!"

    Two
    "Sort of? Supports economy is super busted at the moment. Where normally we'd be able to look at any form of currency in the game and equate it to some value, Red ISO-8 has been in the economy so long and with insufficient purpose that...it's going to need some fixing to reach anything that resembles normal. Just about everything in the supports category is going to seem some shifting as incorporate them more thoroughly into the reward systems of the game and, yes, deal with dupes better than we are."

    Three
    "Definitely aware that the community isn't singing in unison about these updates. They will be rolled out over time with numerous rebalances and opportunities for pivot."

    "Numerous rebalances", and the most broken supports are those that give + x ap at the start of the game. They could change it to first power fired is -x ap, capped at 6. This should greatly fix pvps.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,114 Chairperson of the Boards

    Mod mode off

    Mod mode off

    @fnedude said:
    Two comments from me (I don't know if anyone's brought this up explicityly):

    1) I don't know how much the DEV's know how effective some Support combos are.
    For instance i use 1/2Thor+ShangChi+4Black Widow w/ 4Lucky (SC), +4Sanctum (Thor)+4*Sp/Dr (4BW) in PVE hard nodes. There are many times where I **START **with 10 yellow AP.

    Now obviously that team would get wasted in PVP and not be good, but I can easily change that out for 5Jane+5Shang+Essential and start w/ 8-10 yellow AP. Meaning I could cast 5Jane's yellow on Turn 1, even if i didn't get any yellow AP from her board shake power.

    2) If this is done, will the Supports be "assigned" to a character, or will we be fighting the 3 toons+3 stand alone supports? Supports that can't be 'killed' or turned off until the 3 heroes are killed?

    For instance, i take 5Chasm vs 5Strange+new TajMahal support. If i kill 5Strange, does the support that's "bound" to him is also 'killed', or does it last the whole battle, no matter who i kill? It matters obviously.

    I also have games where I start with 10 Yellow AP. I also have an amount that start with 0. Most start with 5. Is this much better than 4 AP in R/Y and 2 in all other colours that I could have had with Boosts?

    I guess that at the moment those are stackable, so I could have 14 Y AP at the start. If you effectively use Supports in the Boosts/Team up slots, you can go for predictability (boosts), a riskier but higher reward plus other longer effects (support) or a great one shot (TU). You'd hope that the 3 things would be somehow balanced so you could choose the right strategy for your opponent without 1 being hugely better than the others but that would mean a rebalance of some things.

    If I was thinking big strategy, I think this brings back a more considered (if more complex) toolkit to take down your opponent. It does make things slower as others have pointed out but definitely more puzzley, which is something players have also asked for.

    So I guess the whole hopping dynamic gets a bit messed up with the speed reduction and players may get hit more depending on how visible they are due to their MMR. Limiting visibility could therefore help, or an automatic invisible shield where you can only get hit 3 times without fighting back.

    We know MMR and matchmaking in general is being looked at, so I think it's a good time to go back to basics on principles and think through what a "great PvP" might look like and how it might look to different player segments. It will never be perfect be it should at least be a good experience wherever in the game you are.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 640 Critical Contributor

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @HoundofShadow said:
    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

    Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.

    Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.

    For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.

    I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task. :D

    I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference :D

    By the way I think he's being sarcastic

  • fnedude
    fnedude Posts: 374 Mover and Shaker

    I would suggest to the Developers, that if this is to be tried, do it in one of those special "short seasons" that's 10 day long and then turn it off. You would get 3 PVP events and Shield season results to ponder.

    After that, it can be refined/analyzed.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 640 Critical Contributor

    @Scofie said:

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @HoundofShadow said:
    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

    Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.

    Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.

    For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.

    I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task. :D

    I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference :D

    By the way I think he's being sarcastic

    Well d'uh....

    this place can be fun now and again

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,580 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @Scofie said:

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @HoundofShadow said:
    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

    Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.

    Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.

    For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.

    I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task. :D

    I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference :D

    By the way I think he's being sarcastic

    Well d'uh....

    this place can be fun now and again

    Let Hound know when that is happening and he will be sure to shut that down straight away!