New Supports Experience Blog
Comments
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@Tony_Foot said:
@Daredevil217 said:
But you’ve always hated god boosts with or without supports in PvP. If you plan to Shang-cheese regardless, variety would seem less important. God boosts just mean more health to chew through and the possibility of taking a larger nuke to the face. If you use something other than Shang, and perhaps use boosted characters yourself, you would be on “even footing” so to speak. You queue 550 opponents but play your own characters boosted to 550, then it’s no different then. A 450 character eating a nuke from a 450 character. The only thing the boosts are preventing is people going all in on a few characters and minmaxing a single cheese team. If I’m the developers, I’m absolutely deincentivizing this by keeping character boosts at all costs. They should incentivize people chasing ALL characters as much as possible.
I've never liked the boost, everyones experience is different but for me it doesn't really change anything. I still see the same two god boosted for a week. I'd prefer a more balanced game than wading through all that health each match. A game where I don't get to 400 and then nothing but Switch and Collosus for example.
You are only on an even footing if you have those characters champed. There are many that I don't.
I also disagree about incentivising collecting them all. That is also one reason why we have no diversity. I've long maintained if the tiers had only provided enough resources to champ say 75% of the characters and you had to choose who you champed and who you skipped it would be a better game. Anyway even without that now they killed the in game economy it's easier to max min and keep up with latest than ever before.
I wonder how much backing out we see to preserve your health if your AP supports don't put you in a infinite condition from turn 0.
You say it doesn’t change anything, so are you seeing Steel Witch every week? Probably not. But before god boosts you were seeing that combo every event for months on end. You only really needed to level two characters and two supports (if they were allowed in PvP back then) to “keep up”. Now you just need Hulk and Chasm to “keep up” (and two supports).
Next week I’m guessing you won’t queue ONE Steel Witch. That right there shows that it does make a difference. I like that each week the meta is different. This week I’m using Kitty/Jean on everything except Steel Witch (which I’m mirroring). Last week I used DD/Jessica to climb/preserve health, Starlord/Electro to hunt Hulkgasm, and Starlord/Jess for later matches. Also did some experimenting like with Onslaught/Sersi. Overall that’s way more 5*s than I would use and see than before the god boost era.
I understand the old “optimal” was to go all in and skip weak releases. This is no longer the optimal model. They are rebalancing old characters so they are awesome on boost weeks. They are giving us these rotating mega boosts. At this point, if people want to find those 2 meta characters and go “all-in” rather than spread their chips around, then they will probably have a difficult time. You can ask the developers to go back to the old way where only two people mattered. That’s in part what this board is for- feedback. But 5s are so common now that asking them to remove boosted 5s would be like asking to remove boosted 3s and 4s. Not likely to happen. Just like the best characters will rotate each week, the best supports will as well (stones not withstanding).
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I think the big mess up was to release the support before getting the approvals and the announcement of this blog. Then I guessed (correctly) that the support was for pvp and they answered with an incorrect info. My guess for that:
A. they truly didn't know if they could change the UI.
B.they didn't wanted to ruin the awesome announcement and they lied (although they already messed it up releasing a support clearly oriented against chasm and in pvp).
Either way, and because there is no way to prove anything, we must move on (without forgetting, of course, and personally thinking B is the right one).@Bzhai said:
Guys can we not go down this rabbit hole again? Just put on your ignore goggles and let's focus on the main issue. If you feel strongly against the change in pvp it would be more beneficial to give the devs as much feedback and sentiment as possible.Yes. Explicitly said for them. This is positive as we will be heard and our feedback will be decisive. At least they aknowlege that they can't understand all the possible abuses and they need our help to test this new beta mode. So we must work here in game's benefit.
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@ViralCore said:
So instead of nerfing chasm, you're releasing supports in pvp that can only be equipped on some of the worse 5*s? While chasm gets to equip supports that reduce damage to him even further?Why fix something for free when they can monetize the fix?
I realize that this is a game survives because folks spend money on it, but I'm 100% sure the same devs that released a busted-**** Chasm that broke the game on day one will have done a thorough and complete analysis of this decision.
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First time I see that -250 on a shield hop where I fight and win one match, the shield up again, I'm done with PvP.
Just throwing that out there. I have no idea if it's something I need to worry about with supports in PvP. But if I start getting cheese squashed because someone with three 5* supports can win matches as fast as they can queue you up, I'm so done.
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Two comments from me (I don't know if anyone's brought this up explicityly):
1) I don't know how much the DEV's know how effective some Support combos are.
For instance i use 1/2Thor+ShangChi+4Black Widow w/ 4Lucky (SC), +4Sanctum (Thor)+4*Sp/Dr (4BW) in PVE hard nodes. There are many times where I **START **with 10 yellow AP.Now obviously that team would get wasted in PVP and not be good, but I can easily change that out for 5Jane+5Shang+Essential and start w/ 8-10 yellow AP. Meaning I could cast 5Jane's yellow on Turn 1, even if i didn't get any yellow AP from her board shake power.
2) If this is done, will the Supports be "assigned" to a character, or will we be fighting the 3 toons+3 stand alone supports? Supports that can't be 'killed' or turned off until the 3 heroes are killed?
For instance, i take 5Chasm vs 5Strange+new TajMahal support. If i kill 5Strange, does the support that's "bound" to him is also 'killed', or does it last the whole battle, no matter who i kill? It matters obviously.
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Seeing how many players acknowledge that Supports that give aps at start of game is broken, then, rationally, the dev should nerf all these supports?
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@HoundofShadow said:
Seeing how many players acknowledge that Supports that give aps at start of game is broken, then, rationally, the dev should nerf all these supports?Seriously, where tf do you come up with this stuff? Supports that give ap at the start of a match work exactly how expected. It's pvp that will break as a result since starting a match with x number of whatever color will have serious impacts.
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"most likely that if something like this were to come up, we'd make a modal PVE/PVP ability so that you could keep the PVE coolness without breaking everything in PVP or vice versa."
I feel this hints at "X AP at start" supports possibly being a PVE only ability. For PVP use, Kamar-Taj's "reduce cost first time ability is used, to a minimum amount" seems like the new approach. I think this would be smart.
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The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.
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@WilliamK1983 said:
@HoundofShadow said:
Seeing how many players acknowledge that Supports that give aps at start of game is broken, then, rationally, the dev should nerf all these supports?Seriously, where tf do you come up with this stuff? Supports that give ap at the start of a match work exactly how expected. It's pvp that will break as a result since starting a match with x number of whatever color will have serious impacts.
Just stop interacting with them.
Maybe eventually they'll go away.9 -
The dev posted thrice in a "positive" support thread title in reddit. Here's the dev replies:
One
"Thanks for the post and praise! We're super excited to see supports play a much bigger roll as things progress!"Two
"Sort of? Supports economy is super busted at the moment. Where normally we'd be able to look at any form of currency in the game and equate it to some value, Red ISO-8 has been in the economy so long and with insufficient purpose that...it's going to need some fixing to reach anything that resembles normal. Just about everything in the supports category is going to seem some shifting as incorporate them more thoroughly into the reward systems of the game and, yes, deal with dupes better than we are."Three
"Definitely aware that the community isn't singing in unison about these updates. They will be rolled out over time with numerous rebalances and opportunities for pivot.""Numerous rebalances", and the most broken supports are those that give + x ap at the start of the game. They could change it to first power fired is -x ap, capped at 6. This should greatly fix pvps.
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Mod mode off
Mod mode off
@fnedude said:
Two comments from me (I don't know if anyone's brought this up explicityly):1) I don't know how much the DEV's know how effective some Support combos are.
For instance i use 1/2Thor+ShangChi+4Black Widow w/ 4Lucky (SC), +4Sanctum (Thor)+4*Sp/Dr (4BW) in PVE hard nodes. There are many times where I **START **with 10 yellow AP.Now obviously that team would get wasted in PVP and not be good, but I can easily change that out for 5Jane+5Shang+Essential and start w/ 8-10 yellow AP. Meaning I could cast 5Jane's yellow on Turn 1, even if i didn't get any yellow AP from her board shake power.
2) If this is done, will the Supports be "assigned" to a character, or will we be fighting the 3 toons+3 stand alone supports? Supports that can't be 'killed' or turned off until the 3 heroes are killed?
For instance, i take 5Chasm vs 5Strange+new TajMahal support. If i kill 5Strange, does the support that's "bound" to him is also 'killed', or does it last the whole battle, no matter who i kill? It matters obviously.
I also have games where I start with 10 Yellow AP. I also have an amount that start with 0. Most start with 5. Is this much better than 4 AP in R/Y and 2 in all other colours that I could have had with Boosts?
I guess that at the moment those are stackable, so I could have 14 Y AP at the start. If you effectively use Supports in the Boosts/Team up slots, you can go for predictability (boosts), a riskier but higher reward plus other longer effects (support) or a great one shot (TU). You'd hope that the 3 things would be somehow balanced so you could choose the right strategy for your opponent without 1 being hugely better than the others but that would mean a rebalance of some things.
If I was thinking big strategy, I think this brings back a more considered (if more complex) toolkit to take down your opponent. It does make things slower as others have pointed out but definitely more puzzley, which is something players have also asked for.
So I guess the whole hopping dynamic gets a bit messed up with the speed reduction and players may get hit more depending on how visible they are due to their MMR. Limiting visibility could therefore help, or an automatic invisible shield where you can only get hit 3 times without fighting back.
We know MMR and matchmaking in general is being looked at, so I think it's a good time to go back to basics on principles and think through what a "great PvP" might look like and how it might look to different player segments. It will never be perfect be it should at least be a good experience wherever in the game you are.
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@HoundofShadow said:
The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.
Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players on turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.
For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.
I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task.
12 -
@Tony_Foot said:
@HoundofShadow said:
The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.
Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.
For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.
I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task.
I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference
6 -
@BriMan2222 said:
@Tony_Foot said:
@HoundofShadow said:
The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.
Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.
For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.
I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task.
I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference
By the way I think he's being sarcastic
3 -
@ThisisClemFandango said:
@BriMan2222 said:
@Tony_Foot said:
@HoundofShadow said:
The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.
Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.
For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.
I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task.
I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference
By the way I think he's being sarcastic
Well d'uh....
5 -
I would suggest to the Developers, that if this is to be tried, do it in one of those special "short seasons" that's 10 day long and then turn it off. You would get 3 PVP events and Shield season results to ponder.
After that, it can be refined/analyzed.
2 -
@Scofie said:
@ThisisClemFandango said:
@BriMan2222 said:
@Tony_Foot said:
@HoundofShadow said:
The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.
Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.
For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.
I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task.
I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference
By the way I think he's being sarcastic
Well d'uh....
this place can be fun now and again
3 -
@ThisisClemFandango said:
@Scofie said:
@ThisisClemFandango said:
@BriMan2222 said:
@Tony_Foot said:
@HoundofShadow said:
The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.
Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.
For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.
I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task.
I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference
By the way I think he's being sarcastic
Well d'uh....
this place can be fun now and again
Let Hound know when that is happening and he will be sure to shut that down straight away!
3
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