New Supports Experience Blog

1…457910

Comments

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Seeing how many players acknowledge that Supports that give aps at start of game is broken, then, rationally, the dev should nerf all these supports?

  • mdreyer93
    mdreyer93 Posts: 144 Tile Toppler

    "most likely that if something like this were to come up, we'd make a modal PVE/PVP ability so that you could keep the PVE coolness without breaking everything in PVP or vice versa."

    I feel this hints at "X AP at start" supports possibly being a PVE only ability. For PVP use, Kamar-Taj's "reduce cost first time ability is used, to a minimum amount" seems like the new approach. I think this would be smart.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    The dev posted thrice in a "positive" support thread title in reddit. Here's the dev replies:

    One
    "Thanks for the post and praise! We're super excited to see supports play a much bigger roll as things progress!"

    Two
    "Sort of? Supports economy is super busted at the moment. Where normally we'd be able to look at any form of currency in the game and equate it to some value, Red ISO-8 has been in the economy so long and with insufficient purpose that...it's going to need some fixing to reach anything that resembles normal. Just about everything in the supports category is going to seem some shifting as incorporate them more thoroughly into the reward systems of the game and, yes, deal with dupes better than we are."

    Three
    "Definitely aware that the community isn't singing in unison about these updates. They will be rolled out over time with numerous rebalances and opportunities for pivot."

    "Numerous rebalances", and the most broken supports are those that give + x ap at the start of the game. They could change it to first power fired is -x ap, capped at 6. This should greatly fix pvps.

  • Scofie
    Scofie GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,394 Chairperson of the Boards

    Mod mode off

    Mod mode off

    @fnedude said:
    Two comments from me (I don't know if anyone's brought this up explicityly):

    1) I don't know how much the DEV's know how effective some Support combos are.
    For instance i use 1/2Thor+ShangChi+4Black Widow w/ 4Lucky (SC), +4Sanctum (Thor)+4*Sp/Dr (4BW) in PVE hard nodes. There are many times where I **START **with 10 yellow AP.

    Now obviously that team would get wasted in PVP and not be good, but I can easily change that out for 5Jane+5Shang+Essential and start w/ 8-10 yellow AP. Meaning I could cast 5Jane's yellow on Turn 1, even if i didn't get any yellow AP from her board shake power.

    2) If this is done, will the Supports be "assigned" to a character, or will we be fighting the 3 toons+3 stand alone supports? Supports that can't be 'killed' or turned off until the 3 heroes are killed?

    For instance, i take 5Chasm vs 5Strange+new TajMahal support. If i kill 5Strange, does the support that's "bound" to him is also 'killed', or does it last the whole battle, no matter who i kill? It matters obviously.

    I also have games where I start with 10 Yellow AP. I also have an amount that start with 0. Most start with 5. Is this much better than 4 AP in R/Y and 2 in all other colours that I could have had with Boosts?

    I guess that at the moment those are stackable, so I could have 14 Y AP at the start. If you effectively use Supports in the Boosts/Team up slots, you can go for predictability (boosts), a riskier but higher reward plus other longer effects (support) or a great one shot (TU). You'd hope that the 3 things would be somehow balanced so you could choose the right strategy for your opponent without 1 being hugely better than the others but that would mean a rebalance of some things.

    If I was thinking big strategy, I think this brings back a more considered (if more complex) toolkit to take down your opponent. It does make things slower as others have pointed out but definitely more puzzley, which is something players have also asked for.

    So I guess the whole hopping dynamic gets a bit messed up with the speed reduction and players may get hit more depending on how visible they are due to their MMR. Limiting visibility could therefore help, or an automatic invisible shield where you can only get hit 3 times without fighting back.

    We know MMR and matchmaking in general is being looked at, so I think it's a good time to go back to basics on principles and think through what a "great PvP" might look like and how it might look to different player segments. It will never be perfect be it should at least be a good experience wherever in the game you are.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 852 Critical Contributor

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @HoundofShadow said:
    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

    Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.

    Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.

    For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.

    I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task. :D

    I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference :D

    By the way I think he's being sarcastic

  • fnedude
    fnedude Posts: 388 Mover and Shaker

    I would suggest to the Developers, that if this is to be tried, do it in one of those special "short seasons" that's 10 day long and then turn it off. You would get 3 PVP events and Shield season results to ponder.

    After that, it can be refined/analyzed.

  • ThisisClemFandango
    ThisisClemFandango Posts: 852 Critical Contributor

    @Scofie said:

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @HoundofShadow said:
    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

    Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.

    Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.

    For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.

    I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task. :D

    I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference :D

    By the way I think he's being sarcastic

    Well d'uh....

    this place can be fun now and again

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @Scofie said:

    @ThisisClemFandango said:

    @BriMan2222 said:

    @Tony_Foot said:

    @HoundofShadow said:
    The point is, if broken mechanics benefits players, it should not be nerfed. However, if it benefits them, it should stay. And players talk about balancing the game. Yeah, right.

    Oh look the magical players statement again, those magical players from happy land, in a gumdrop house on lollipop lane.

    Absolutely no one is saying what you have just stated. All the unease is exactly about the benefit from players one turn one. People 'players' are saying that's what they don't want. What they are saying is they don't mind it for PVE but wouldn't want it in PVP. No one is saying if it benefits them it should stay.

    For once you should be happy that people are not talking about benefiting from a selfish point of view. But no that doesn't suit your mantra.

    I too though need to listen and this is my last interaction, I've spent all day helping pre-schoolers to read and that's and easier task. :D

    I wish I could give this comment an extra like for the simpsons reference :D

    By the way I think he's being sarcastic

    Well d'uh....

    this place can be fun now and again

    Let Hound know when that is happening and he will be sure to shut that down straight away!

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    "Players just want to have fun with meta teams, which is not what this game is about!"

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 168 Tile Toppler

    let's not forget that starting a match with ap from supports is based on chance... except the ai will have 100% while the player has the advertised percentage...

  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 321 Mover and Shaker
    edited March 2023

    @ViralCore said:
    let's not forget that starting a match with ap from supports is based on chance... except the ai will have 100% while the player has the advertised percentage...

    I think maybe have inadvertently found the dev's solution, to the ap generating supports. Just reduce their percentage on defense. Cap it at 10% at 5*

    I think this way they don't focus all their efforts towards balancing older supports and they can create new support with interesting mechanics.

  • Yepyep
    Yepyep Posts: 954 Critical Contributor

    It's possible they could limit the amount of AP gain between boosts and supports to, say, 6. I thought I read something in one of the devs' comments alluding to this but i don't remember what it was, exactly.

    They could also restrict what supports are permitted in PvP (somewhat analogously to how teamups are restricted -- only certain characters and powers can be donated). Another possibility would be to have two or three classes of supports -- those for PvE, those for PvP, and hybrids.

    It just isn't realistic to think that someone will be able to use, say, a 5* Sanctum in PvP the same way it's used in PvE.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,965 Chairperson of the Boards

    If they limit AP generation, honestly, this is all fine.

    Even if they don't initially limit AP generation, I really think they're going to have to do it eventually. The fact that it'd stack with boosts just means that some teams/combos would be way too fast on offense, and the AP generating supports would also make certain defensive teams very RNG-dependent.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Supports granting AP at the start of battle aren't as good as mentioned.
    If you played Kang squad, they have a % and there will be lot of times when no support is activated even having 2 granting yellow.
    On PvE is easy, just quit it quickly and retry. But on pvp is not so easy option to quit.
    On the other hand, a chahulk team doesn't need any AP and the supports chosen for them only will be the ones to make them even more annoying, damaging more or having protects.
    So no support will fix an already OP team, imo, chahulk will be everywhere exactly as they are now.

Categories