New Supports Experience Blog

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  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,653 Chairperson of the Boards

    Alright, after getting away from the initial shock of this PvP stuff I went back and digested the blog post, and there are many things to be happy about.

    Upgrading supports finally after all these years.

    Character based supports are going away. I know it's just "flavor" but it always felt strange to have a character as a support, and even more so once those characters were released in the game.

    One thing that caught my eye was "Current Supports typically target a specific character or a huge affiliation group (Heroes & Villains); this felt pretty limiting." So maybe hopefully those character specific supports for Black Panther and Iron Man will get more interactions.

    I like how the direction for supports affiliation based synergies. It makes the supports more thematically important and relevant.

    Stuff I'm not sure about.
    PvP I'm going to reserve judgement for now and just wait and see.
    Old support adjustments. Many are important in PvE and many are completely useless. Hopefully they don't shut down the usefull ones and just bring the less used supports up to par with the higher tier supports.
    Infinity Stones. Hopefully there will be other avenues to obtaining these in the near future.

    So overall lots of good and some bad/not sure yet.

  • bahamut685
    bahamut685 Posts: 210 Tile Toppler

    @HoundofShadow said:
    Supports are places or non-humans in the future. I doubt Chasm can stun non-characters.

    It's like you're 100% oblivious to the state of the game...
    Chasm doesn't have to follow any rules.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    "Not ruling it out" is almost the complete opposite of "we have definite plans to do so in the near future."

    @revskip said:
    Interesting changes if implemented correctly and with a lot of testing ahead of launch. Like A LOT OF TESTING. Which traditionally has not always been a strength for either developer. With the limited info we have I'm definitely not with the pitchforks crowd but do have some apprehension. Did I mention testing?

    I honestly think that with the expinential increase in complexity this brings they won't be able to test thoroughly enough - that will happen when we get our hands on it.

    Which sounds like a lot of fun to me, but I realise fun isn't what everyone, including some of our most esteemed forumites, is after.

  • Bzhai
    Bzhai Posts: 513 Critical Contributor

    @DrClever said:

    "Not ruling it out" is almost the complete opposite of "we have definite plans to do so in the near future."

    @revskip said:
    Interesting changes if implemented correctly and with a lot of testing ahead of launch. Like A LOT OF TESTING. Which traditionally has not always been a strength for either developer. With the limited info we have I'm definitely not with the pitchforks crowd but do have some apprehension. Did I mention testing?

    I honestly think that with the expinential increase in complexity this brings they won't be able to test thoroughly enough - that will happen when we get our hands on it.

    Which sounds like a lot of fun to me, but I realise fun isn't what everyone, including some of our most esteemed forumites, is after.

    Some people play for placement, to them working towards and getting the highest tier rewards is fun. This change could potentially disrupt that so it's understandable that they're concerned.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,277 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    @Daredevil217 said:
    If you use something other than Shang, and perhaps use boosted characters yourself, you would > be on “even footing” so to speak. You queue 550 opponents but play your own characters
    boosted to 550, then it’s no different then.

    The problem is that MMR does not currently take into account God Boosts.

    If you and I both have a roster that has say 5 characters at L450 and this week 3 of your characters are God boosted to 550 and none of mine are we are still in the same MMR. At that point I'm trying to use 450s against your 550s.

    God boosts are great for end game players who have lots of champed characters in their tier (3, 4 or 5*) but not great for players trying to break into a tier where they have limited numbers of characters who are champed.

    The new MMR needs to fix this.

    KGB

  • ViralCore
    ViralCore Posts: 168 Tile Toppler

    So instead of nerfing chasm, you're releasing supports in pvp that can only be equipped on some of the worse 5*s? While chasm gets to equip supports that reduce damage to him even further?

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,277 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    @Bowgentle said:

    @KGB said:

    @Daredevil217 said:
    If you use something other than Shang, and perhaps use boosted characters yourself, you would > be on “even footing” so to speak. You queue 550 opponents but play your own characters
    boosted to 550, then it’s no different then.

    The problem is that MMR does not currently take into account God Boosts.

    If you and I both have a roster that has say 5 characters at L450 and this week 3 of your characters are God boosted to 550 and none of mine are we are still in the same MMR. At that point I'm trying to use 450s against your 550s.

    God boosts are great for end game players who have lots of champed characters in their tier (3, 4 or 5*) but not great for players trying to break into a tier where they have limited numbers of characters who are champed.

    The new MMR needs to fix this.

    KGB

    Why does it need to fix this?
    Isn't that the point, to give endgame players an advantage?
    Why advance my roster when it doesn't give me an advantage?
    Isn't the guy running god boosts allowed to have fun?
    Maybe the week after the tables will be turned.
    Should god boosted chars only see natural 550s? No, thank you.

    So then the purpose of God boosts is to let you club baby seals?

    All the advantages and fun you speak of you already get in PvE where the opponents are fixed levels based on the CL you select.

    I guess I always thought the purpose of PvP was to match similar teams in the same manner that say Boxing has weight classes, and not let Mike Tyson into the ring with a flyweight so he can have some fun (for him, not so much fun for the flyweight).

    Part of the reason so many players don't play or quit PvP is because they get into this situation where they are being clubbed due to mismatches caused by God boosts. I really hope the new MMR addresses this.

    KGB

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited March 2023

    Nobody clubs baby seals.
    I get nothing but ColWanda this week.
    I can't speak for the experience of low champed 5s players, but I doubt @Road_Warrior is clubbing seals past 500.
    Maybe don't speak about 5* MMR if you have no experience with it.

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    Some people play for placement, to them working towards and getting the highest tier rewards is fun. This change could potentially disrupt that so it's understandable that they're concerned.

    I agree with the "getting" part but the "working towards" seems to be what they are keen to avoid.

    On which count they ought to relax, the people that finish on top now will continue to do so after a trivial period of adjustment at worst.

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,342 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @Bowgentle said:

    @KGB said:

    @Daredevil217 said:
    If you use something other than Shang, and perhaps use boosted characters yourself, you would > be on “even footing” so to speak. You queue 550 opponents but play your own characters
    boosted to 550, then it’s no different then.

    The problem is that MMR does not currently take into account God Boosts.

    If you and I both have a roster that has say 5 characters at L450 and this week 3 of your characters are God boosted to 550 and none of mine are we are still in the same MMR. At that point I'm trying to use 450s against your 550s.

    God boosts are great for end game players who have lots of champed characters in their tier (3, 4 or 5*) but not great for players trying to break into a tier where they have limited numbers of characters who are champed.

    The new MMR needs to fix this.

    KGB

    Why does it need to fix this?
    Isn't that the point, to give endgame players an advantage?
    Why advance my roster when it doesn't give me an advantage?
    Isn't the guy running god boosts allowed to have fun?
    Maybe the week after the tables will be turned.
    Should god boosted chars only see natural 550s? No, thank you.

    So then the purpose of God boosts is to let you club baby seals?

    All the advantages and fun you speak of you already get in PvE where the opponents are fixed levels based on the CL you select.

    I guess I always thought the purpose of PvP was to match similar teams in the same manner that say Boxing has weight classes, and not let Mike Tyson into the ring with a flyweight so he can have some fun (for him, not so much fun for the flyweight).

    Part of the reason so many players don't play or quit PvP is because they get into this situation where they are being clubbed due to mismatches caused by God boosts. I really hope the new MMR addresses this.

    KGB

    Mostly each God boost week is filled with god boost characters to fight against, some weeks are better than others. Boost list starting tomorrow looks pretty good for me. Now I may get some plucky Shang-Cheese and Melinda May character who was able to queue up my boosted 5's (like yesterday!) and stun-lock/cheese a win and then I crush that team on retal. Seems pretty fair? If they don't wanna get crushed then don't attack me! That player has a champed Shang and chose to go the easy stun/cheese route against a boosted 5. It is very rare that I see a non boosted 5 team that isn't Chasm/Jane Thor/Shangers so these are all 5* players like me in my MMR using meta/elite 5's. Likewise if they want to use Polaris against me then thanks! That was their choice! Maybe next week they have a boosted 5 and I am scrabbling around. Sure somebody like @Bowgentle probably has boosted 5's each week but they earned those so should get to enjoy the benefits that come with having a deep roster.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,470 Chairperson of the Boards

    There are definitely weeks were the boost list isn't good enough to defeat the unboosted meta handily still, but one hopes the ongoing tweaks to older characters will make that better.

    I hope that some of the under-served affiliations like Team Iron Man or possibly even GotG can get Membership Badge supports at some point that will allow you to induct other characters into the fold for the purposes of doing cool stuff. Like put Kitty or Nico on the guardians so Rocket can get a jumpstart, or giving literally anyone the team iron man affiliation so he can do anything at all with that power.

  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 321 Mover and Shaker

    @Bowgentle said:
    Nobody clubs baby seals.
    I get nothing but ColWanda this week.
    I can't speak for the experience of low champed 5s players, but I doubt @Road_Warrior is clubbing seals past 500.
    Maybe don't speak about 5* MMR if you have no experience with it.

    I think this depends on slices. In S2 and S5 you are forced to club seals from pretty much from 900 onwards. I also saw maybe two colwanda in she Hulk PvP. Probably due to a late climb on my part.

    Again, just wanted to show the gameplay experience can be different and ppl should not judge

  • Mrcl25
    Mrcl25 Posts: 138 Tile Toppler

    @IceIX what about Infinity Stones? It's impossible for s5 players to place well enough in a season to get even one them. Will they be made available in other ways, like regular supports?

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think the big mess up was to release the support before getting the approvals and the announcement of this blog. Then I guessed (correctly) that the support was for pvp and they answered with an incorrect info. My guess for that:
    A. they truly didn't know if they could change the UI.
    B.they didn't wanted to ruin the awesome announcement and they lied (although they already messed it up releasing a support clearly oriented against chasm and in pvp).
    Either way, and because there is no way to prove anything, we must move on (without forgetting, of course, and personally thinking B is the right one).

    @Bzhai said:
    Guys can we not go down this rabbit hole again? Just put on your ignore goggles and let's focus on the main issue. If you feel strongly against the change in pvp it would be more beneficial to give the devs as much feedback and sentiment as possible.

    Yes. Explicitly said for them. This is positive as we will be heard and our feedback will be decisive. At least they aknowlege that they can't understand all the possible abuses and they need our help to test this new beta mode. So we must work here in game's benefit.

  • allen_koholic
    allen_koholic Posts: 103 Tile Toppler
    edited March 2023

    @ViralCore said:
    So instead of nerfing chasm, you're releasing supports in pvp that can only be equipped on some of the worse 5*s? While chasm gets to equip supports that reduce damage to him even further?

    Why fix something for free when they can monetize the fix?

    I realize that this is a game survives because folks spend money on it, but I'm 100% sure the same devs that released a busted-**** Chasm that broke the game on day one will have done a thorough and complete analysis of this decision.

  • fnedude
    fnedude Posts: 388 Mover and Shaker

    Two comments from me (I don't know if anyone's brought this up explicityly):

    1) I don't know how much the DEV's know how effective some Support combos are.
    For instance i use 1/2Thor+ShangChi+4Black Widow w/ 4Lucky (SC), +4Sanctum (Thor)+4*Sp/Dr (4BW) in PVE hard nodes. There are many times where I **START **with 10 yellow AP.

    Now obviously that team would get wasted in PVP and not be good, but I can easily change that out for 5Jane+5Shang+Essential and start w/ 8-10 yellow AP. Meaning I could cast 5Jane's yellow on Turn 1, even if i didn't get any yellow AP from her board shake power.

    2) If this is done, will the Supports be "assigned" to a character, or will we be fighting the 3 toons+3 stand alone supports? Supports that can't be 'killed' or turned off until the 3 heroes are killed?

    For instance, i take 5Chasm vs 5Strange+new TajMahal support. If i kill 5Strange, does the support that's "bound" to him is also 'killed', or does it last the whole battle, no matter who i kill? It matters obviously.

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