Nova (Tanak Valt) 5*

entrailbucket

@Domitronas said:

@entrailbucket said:
How many fights have you done with Nova so far? What level is yours? Have you faced one at 672?

Oh so if I don't have him maxed out suddenly my points are invalidated?

So you haven't used him or fought him yet, but he's mediocre. Ok.

TheXMan

Mine is 458. He stinks. I have the last 6 characters at 550 and you only see those characters anymore when boosted. I could also 550 this one but I will pass. There has to be a way to make some of these new characters relevant besides boost weeks but it seems like max ascended characters is the better way to focus.

Domitronas

@entrailbucket said:
So you haven't used him or fought him yet, but he's mediocre. Ok.

I fought a few baby champs but they did not provide any difficulty to the boosted IM35.

And hey maybe if I had some of that 85 million ISO of yours I too could champ latest releases on day 1 along with the 40 other 5 stars that are waiting in the gutter.

I do generally like your insights entrail, but in your wisdom you forget that players also exist outside of the upper echelon. If a character is good at 672 it doesn't mean that it can't be garbage at 450. You choose to actively ignore my points about his kit while choosing some elitist type of s*** as your own arguments.

Not sure there's anything left to say when you're not looking at things in good faith.

entrailbucket

@Domitronas said:

@entrailbucket said:
So you haven't used him or fought him yet, but he's mediocre. Ok.

I fought a few baby champs but they did not provide any difficulty to the boosted IM35.

And hey maybe if I had some of that 85 million ISO of yours I too could champ latest releases on day 1 along with the 40 other 5 stars that are waiting in the gutter.

I do generally like your insights entrail, but in your wisdom you forget that players also exist outside of the upper echelon. If a character is good at 672 it doesn't mean that it can't be garbage at 450. You choose to actively ignore my points about his kit while choosing some elitist type of s*** as your own arguments.

Not sure there's anything left to say when you're not looking at things in good faith.

Explain how this is "bad faith." Is it really too much to ask that players use a character in the game before deciding if he's good or bad? I've looked at tons of these kits on paper and decided they were junk, then played them and found some use for them -- sometimes a very powerful one!

The forum was overwhelmingly down on High Evolutionary, Darkveil, even Golden Oldie -- and now one of those is a nightmare every time he's boosted, one is the character I least want to fight ever, and one of them is the fastest team in PvE. Go back and read their character threads and it's everyone dumping on them!

Heck, I've missed on a bunch of characters too, often quite badly! These kits are getting more and more complicated -- this stuff is hard to evaluate on paper.

Domitronas

@entrailbucket said:
Explain how this is "bad faith." Is it really too much to ask that players use a character in the game before deciding if he's good or bad? I've looked at tons of these kits on paper and decided they were junk, then played them and found some use for them -- sometimes a very powerful one!

But you're missing the point here, all of these characters are good at the specific things they do. Golden May has probably the most unprecedented AoE nuke in the game, is there any other character in the game that can drain other AP to boost the damage by such a margin? No, there isn't. Same goes for High Evo, same for Darkveil. What does Nova do that other characters do not already do and do that better? Ok you want CDs, why would you ever pick Nova instead of Coulson? You want attack tiles - where do I even start. You want heals - plenty.

Take his kit and streamline it, take away the stupid heal, make up your mind whether you want to destroy his CDs or you want them to resolve, put that power budget into damage and you could have a great glass cannon character. If his black was just pure damage, say do X damage to random character Y times where Y is the amount of his CD tiles destroyed with no upper limit, that would already be on part with mThor's Red with the infinite scaling potential. But now you just have this nothingburger, and I'M SURE he is "usable when boosted", I'm sure, but it doesn't change that fact that his kit is just a random mess with wasted potential.

entrailbucket

@Domitronas said:

@entrailbucket said:
Explain how this is "bad faith." Is it really too much to ask that players use a character in the game before deciding if he's good or bad? I've looked at tons of these kits on paper and decided they were junk, then played them and found some use for them -- sometimes a very powerful one!

But you're missing the point here, all of these characters are good at the specific things they do. Golden May has probably the most unprecedented AoE nuke in the game, is there any other character in the game that can drain other AP to boost the damage by such a margin? No, there isn't. Same goes for High Evo, same for Darkveil. What does Nova do that other characters do not already do and do that better? Ok you want CDs, why would you ever pick Nova instead of Coulson? You want attack tiles - where do I even start. You want heals - plenty.

Take his kit and streamline it, take away the stupid heal, make up your mind whether you want to destroy his CDs or you want them to resolve, put that power budget into damage and you could have a great glass cannon character. If his black was just pure damage, say do X damage to random character Y times where Y is the amount of his CD tiles destroyed with no upper limit, that would already be on part with mThor's Red with the infinite scaling potential. But now you just have this nothingburger, and I'M SURE he is "usable when boosted", I'm sure, but it doesn't change that fact that his kit is just a random mess with wasted potential.

All those characters ARE good at the things they do, and before people actually used them in the game, there were several pages on this forum explaining how their kits were unfocused random messes with wasted potential, and that those characters were unusable -- quite similar to this thread, actually.

I'm serious. Go read the first few pages of each of those threads. We are, collectively, terrible at evaluating BCS's characters before using them.

entrailbucket

I'd also like to pick at this "elitism" stuff.

If a character is good at 672, but unusable at 450, and you have them at 450, doesn't that just mean they're not good YET?

Why wouldn't the same thing work for even lower level characters? If I had m'Thor at 3/0/5 and lvl300 or something and I say she's awful, folks would say "duh, of course she is, you're missing covers and levels. She'll be great when you level her up and add blue covers."

So why is it that a character who's "good at lvl672" isn't just...good?

WhiteBomber

Previously, on arguing for the sake of arguing:

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:
Previously, on arguing for the sake of arguing:

Nova is currently boosted.

WhiteBomber

"So why is it that a character who's "good at lvl672" isn't just...good?"

I answer this question even though I know you know the answer, you acknowledge in your previous post there are only "3 good ones".

Because some characters do not stand a chance in a fight with higher tiers UNLESS they are boosted by (in my opinion broken / flawed) mechanic that raises health, match damage and ability numbers to crazy heights. That very temporary boost is only good for a few days, while the rest of the cast are not boosted. Rest assured, if the better characters had that same boost, that would not be a fair fight, nor would people choose the worse characters. EX: M'Thor, Shang, iHulk etc. need 1-3 covers to provide more value than too many 5 stars.

I'm not saying Tanak Tanak Tun is bad or good, just answering this question.

The entire existence of this mechanic I believe is based in the fact that those characters are usually so weak they would not see play unless boosted. I think the difference is "good" VS "good for a couple days every year or so because the others aren't also boosted".

entrailbucket

@WhiteBomber said:
"So why is it that a character who's "good at lvl672" isn't just...good?"

I answer this question even though I know you know the answer, you acknowledge in your previous post there are only "3 good ones".

Because some characters do not stand a chance in a fight with higher tiers UNLESS they are boosted by (in my opinion broken / flawed) mechanic that raises health, match damage and ability numbers to crazy heights. That very temporary boost is only good for a few days, while the rest of the cast are not boosted. Rest assured, if the better characters had that same boost, that would not be a fair fight, nor would people choose the worse characters. EX: M'Thor, Shang, iHulk etc. need 1-3 covers to provide more value than too many 5 stars.

I'm not saying Tanak Tanak Tun is bad or good, just answering this question.

The entire existence of this mechanic I believe is based in the fact that those characters are usually so weak they would not see play unless boosted. I think the difference is "good" VS "good for a couple days every year or so because the others aren't also boosted".

Boosted characters (and yes, "god-boosted" characters) have probably been in the game longer than you've been playing it. The rotating boosts are designed to feature different characters, so players will roster them, buying slots and spending money.

Back before Gambit, my alliance used to love murdering arrogant 5* players with "god-boosted" 4* -- and they were really effective! They also conveniently kept us hidden in matchmaking, so we could only queue invaders to our slice. We all had high-level 5*, of course, but it was so much more fun beating people up with 4*. Gambit killed all that, though, because 4* mostly had to cast stuff to win fights.

At that time, the developers didn't think about a rotating 5* boost, not because it was a terrible idea that'd break the game, but because the rotation would've been like two or three weeks. It was inevitable once they built out the tier, though.

The developers have always tried to incentivize diversity and building a deep roster, because that's how they make money. You don't have to like the mechanic, but it's both very old and also here to stay.

MegaBee

@entrailbucket said:

@Domitronas said:

@entrailbucket said:
Explain how this is "bad faith." Is it really too much to ask that players use a character in the game before deciding if he's good or bad? I've looked at tons of these kits on paper and decided they were junk, then played them and found some use for them -- sometimes a very powerful one!

But you're missing the point here, all of these characters are good at the specific things they do. Golden May has probably the most unprecedented AoE nuke in the game, is there any other character in the game that can drain other AP to boost the damage by such a margin? No, there isn't. Same goes for High Evo, same for Darkveil. What does Nova do that other characters do not already do and do that better? Ok you want CDs, why would you ever pick Nova instead of Coulson? You want attack tiles - where do I even start. You want heals - plenty.

Take his kit and streamline it, take away the stupid heal, make up your mind whether you want to destroy his CDs or you want them to resolve, put that power budget into damage and you could have a great glass cannon character. If his black was just pure damage, say do X damage to random character Y times where Y is the amount of his CD tiles destroyed with no upper limit, that would already be on part with mThor's Red with the infinite scaling potential. But now you just have this nothingburger, and I'M SURE he is "usable when boosted", I'm sure, but it doesn't change that fact that his kit is just a random mess with wasted potential.

All those characters ARE good at the things they do, and before people actually used them in the game, there were several pages on this forum explaining how their kits were unfocused random messes with wasted potential, and that those characters were unusable -- quite similar to this thread, actually.

I'm serious. Go read the first few pages of each of those threads. We are, collectively, terrible at evaluating BCS's characters before using them.

I remember when people wildly underestimated Okoye when she was added.

LavaManLee

@MegaBee said:
I remember when people wildly underestimated Okoye when she was added.

Yes, but here's the difference. She is still worthwhile if baby champed. As is SC. As is MT. OR. Apocalypse. There's probably 15 or so that are still good if you aren't playing the 550 game.

People aren't begging for characters who have to be boosted to 672 to be useful. They want characters that if they put a little investment into them, they have something that can be used in PVE/PVP for fun.

Sure, 5Nova might be great at 672 but so what?

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:

@MegaBee said:
I remember when people wildly underestimated Okoye when she was added.

Yes, but here's the difference. She is still worthwhile if baby champed. As is SC. As is MT. OR. Apocalypse. There's probably 15 or so that are still good if you aren't playing the 550 game.

People aren't begging for characters who have to be boosted to 672 to be useful. They want characters that if they put a little investment into them, they have something that can be used in PVE/PVP for fun.

Sure, 5Nova might be great at 672 but so what?

How on Earth can you claim to know what "people" are "begging for?" Are you really saying that most players can't have fun with a character unless they're as strong as m'Thor or Omega Red? How many players do you regularly talk to about this? And yeah, I'm sure all 4 of the other people who post on this forum will agree with you, but that is in no way a majority.

Most of the players I still talk to are more than happy with characters who are usable at 550 and great at 672.

Personally, I think everyone should be "usable when boosted," absolutely no one should be "usable all the time" or "so bad they're unusable even when boosted," and the devs should adjust power levels until we're there.

TheXMan

Which of the last six 5s is usable in pvp at 550 when not boosted? I saw a couple Aunt May when she first came out but not anymore. I see people grill with 550 Phyla-Vell.

OGAlphateam

I’m doing something wrong with this guy and I don’t know what.

I have a single red cover and I’m trying to complete the quests. I’m using Black Bolt to make the missing covers. I can fire off red and yellow, but it won’t let me fire off the black. It says “This will have no effect”. I thought it was because I was full on health and even at 50% health it would not fire. It kept saying that the Nova Corps tiles were at zero when Ive matched many.

Gymp28

I’d just like to chime in that I’ve only got Tanak at 1/1/1 and had quite a bit of fun using him in PvE with Shuri and Deathlok. You can really pump out his powers pretty rapidly to showcase all his multi-triggers.
Sure, that’s not fast or meta, but it was certainly entertaining:)

LavaManLee

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@MegaBee said:
I remember when people wildly underestimated Okoye when she was added.

Yes, but here's the difference. She is still worthwhile if baby champed. As is SC. As is MT. OR. Apocalypse. There's probably 15 or so that are still good if you aren't playing the 550 game.

People aren't begging for characters who have to be boosted to 672 to be useful. They want characters that if they put a little investment into them, they have something that can be used in PVE/PVP for fun.

Sure, 5Nova might be great at 672 but so what?

How on Earth can you claim to know what "people" are "begging for?" Are you really saying that most players can't have fun with a character unless they're as strong as m'Thor or Omega Red? How many players do you regularly talk to about this? And yeah, I'm sure all 4 of the other people who post on this forum will agree with you, but that is in no way a majority.

Most of the players I still talk to are more than happy with characters who are usable at 550 and great at 672.

Personally, I think everyone should be "usable when boosted," absolutely no one should be "usable all the time" or "so bad they're unusable even when boosted," and the devs should adjust power levels until we're there.

So just to be clear: you know that you talk to enough people to understand what they want but you also know that I don't. Got it. We may as well just change this to the "entrailbucket forum" because you can't question anything you say as you know what is best for us and the game.

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@MegaBee said:
I remember when people wildly underestimated Okoye when she was added.

Yes, but here's the difference. She is still worthwhile if baby champed. As is SC. As is MT. OR. Apocalypse. There's probably 15 or so that are still good if you aren't playing the 550 game.

People aren't begging for characters who have to be boosted to 672 to be useful. They want characters that if they put a little investment into them, they have something that can be used in PVE/PVP for fun.

Sure, 5Nova might be great at 672 but so what?

How on Earth can you claim to know what "people" are "begging for?" Are you really saying that most players can't have fun with a character unless they're as strong as m'Thor or Omega Red? How many players do you regularly talk to about this? And yeah, I'm sure all 4 of the other people who post on this forum will agree with you, but that is in no way a majority.

Most of the players I still talk to are more than happy with characters who are usable at 550 and great at 672.

Personally, I think everyone should be "usable when boosted," absolutely no one should be "usable all the time" or "so bad they're unusable even when boosted," and the devs should adjust power levels until we're there.

So just to be clear: you know that you talk to enough people to understand what they want but you also know that I don't. Got it. We may as well just change this to the "entrailbucket forum" because you can't question anything you say as you know what is best for us and the game.

Of course not. Neither you or I know enough players to say what everyone wants -- or even what MOST players want!

My point was that there are players who are perfectly happy with the stuff you're saying that nobody wants.

Zarqa

Oh come on. You claim often enough that you do know what other players or the devs want. Honestly, it’s starting to feel Hound has returned more and more to me recently. It’s the same argument over and over and over again, and I am pretty convinced it’s just for argument’s sake most of the time.

I appreciate your game knowledge and other contributions, but the constant arguments are getting tiresome.