Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?

bbigler

Bad luck can make you lose a match, or at least a health pack or two. When it comes to MThor, bad luck happens more often, unlike any other character.

Timemachinego

@bbigler said:
Bad luck can make you lose a match, or at least a health pack or two. When it comes to MThor, bad luck happens more often, unlike any other character.

Just wait until Teen Jean ascends and you can't make a move against her without making a match-5

KGB

@Timemachinego said:

@bbigler said:
Bad luck can make you lose a match, or at least a health pack or two. When it comes to MThor, bad luck happens more often, unlike any other character.

Just wait until Teen Jean ascends and you can't make a move against her without making a match-5

We really really need Teen Jean's power on a support. It's one of the things I've long been hoping for.

KGB

JoeHandle

Story time ...

tiomono

If I were to rebalance her, (and I'm not positive she needs it even though I find her frustrating to play against) my only change would be for her to not prioritize special tiles when she pops tiles. She could still destroy them but would not be guaranteed to destroy them.

revskip

@entrailbucket said:

@StanleyBurrell said:
Overall PvP seems to be in a good spot imo. Everything can be slapped by different teams.

I agree with this. As long as, generally, the boosted characters are the best by a lot, we'll get a diverse meta that shifts week to week. That's what's happening now.

That's not what I'm seeing at my MMR (490 ish). Shang-Chi/Jane all over the place and that combo is winning against double boosted. Had a retal match go sideways on turn 3 today running boosted Doc Ock and Panther. That team saw the double boosted team, laughed at it, beat it and then wiped them again on the retal.

In fact just scrolling through my other matches nearly all of them have some combination of Jane in them. If the excuse for taking Chasm out at the knees was that he was too prevalent Jane absolutely hits that metric. If it was because he was too good unboosted Jane hits that metric.

Passive board shake is massively OP. She'd be fine if you made her blue conditional like every single other character in the tier with board shake.

Bowgentle

Well, Doc Ock and Panther kinda suck.
Panther doesn't clap back hard enough, and Ock relies on special tiles, which are... Not good against Jane.
Use Gladiathor.

Zalasta

@revskip said:
In fact just scrolling through my other matches nearly all of them have some combination of Jane in them. If the excuse for taking Chasm out at the knees was that he was too prevalent Jane absolutely hits that metric. If it was because he was too good unboosted Jane hits that metric.

Passive board shake is massively OP. She'd be fine if you made her blue conditional like every single other character in the tier with board shake.

Chasm wasn’t adjusted because he was to prevalent, he was adjusted because he was so different to beat, especially with the resurrection meta when paired with iHulk and other resurrection toons. Jane is easily beaten, but does occasionally get a lucky cascade. I’m always glad to see Jane in PvP. Those are some fast and easy high point matches.

A better metric on how OP a character is in PvP might be defensive win rate.

Jane really isn’t OP, but it would be nice to have a stronger counter. A new 5 star with a power similar to 4* Deadpool’s purple power would end Jane’s reign as meta.

revskip

@Bowgentle said:
Well, Doc Ock and Panther kinda suck.
Panther doesn't clap back hard enough, and Ock relies on special tiles, which are... Not good against Jane.
Use Gladiathor.

Sure this boost week is suboptimal. But last week I was seeing the same thing running StarLord and Strange. Even with Strange punishing Jane with damage for every power fired I was still getting hit by teams running her. If the goal is to have double boosted be the meta then she needs to be tweaked back a bit.

The same folks who are playing apologist for her would use this same argument when advocating for a nerf of Chasm. "This a good boost week so of course you don't see him run as much".

Consistency would be nice. I'd prefer for the double boosted teams to be the meta, it keeps it fresh and changes every week. Characters that disrupt that dynamic should be brought back in line to the mean. She clearly disrupts that dynamic and is run all the time at my MMR against double boosted teams. It would be as simple as just removing the passive on her blue. She'd still hit hard as a truck when boosted and would still have plenty of utility.

@Zalasta said:

Chasm wasn’t adjusted because he was to prevalent, he was adjusted because he was so different to beat, especially with the resurrection meta when paired with iHulk and other resurrection toons.

By the time they actually nerfed him there were plenty of very reasonable counters to that team. Including running Jane/Riri. Partly because she is just as OP as he was.

Bowgentle

You were suppose to run Gambit last week.
If you run Strange you're asking for trouble, he dies to a stiff breeze.

revskip

@Bowgentle said:
You were suppose to run Gambit last week.
If you run Strange you're asking for trouble, he dies to a stiff breeze.

Didn't have Gambit last week. Don't have 1/2 Thor this week. You'd think with 3 out of the 4 double boosted available to me in both weeks that I should have enough firepower to scare off a non-boosted team, no? If not perhaps that non-boosted team should be nerfed a bit, no? Because by the reasoning used to take out Chasm was that unboosted toons shouldn't be savaging double boosted teams.

I mean that was the reasoning sombunall folks had for nerfing Chasm.

nwahs086

@Zalasta said:

@revskip said:
In fact just scrolling through my other matches nearly all of them have some combination of Jane in them. If the excuse for taking Chasm out at the knees was that he was too prevalent Jane absolutely hits that metric. If it was because he was too good unboosted Jane hits that metric.

Passive board shake is massively OP. She'd be fine if you made her blue conditional like every single other character in the tier with board shake.

Chasm wasn’t adjusted because he was to prevalent, he was adjusted because he was so different to beat, especially with the resurrection meta when paired with iHulk and other resurrection toons. Jane is easily beaten, but does occasionally get a lucky cascade. I’m always glad to see Jane in PvP. Those are some fast and easy high point matches.

A better metric on how OP a character is in PvP might be defensive win rate.

Jane really isn’t OP, but it would be nice to have a stronger counter. A new 5 star with a power similar to 4* Deadpool’s purple power would end Jane’s reign as meta.

Ascended 4 star Deadpool?

Bowgentle

@revskip said:

@Bowgentle said:
You were suppose to run Gambit last week.
If you run Strange you're asking for trouble, he dies to a stiff breeze.

Didn't have Gambit last week. Don't have 1/2 Thor this week. You'd think with 3 out of the 4 double boosted available to me in both weeks that I should have enough firepower to scare off a non-boosted team, no? If not perhaps that non-boosted team should be nerfed a bit, no? Because by the reasoning used to take out Chasm was that unboosted toons shouldn't be savaging double boosted teams.

I mean that was the reasoning sombunall folks had for nerfing Chasm.

I don't really care if she's nerfed.
I have her at 550, I haven't used her in weeks.
But no, I don't think having bad 5s boosted should put you into untouchable God mode.

Zalasta

@nwahs086 said:

@Zalasta said:

@revskip said:
In fact just scrolling through my other matches nearly all of them have some combination of Jane in them. If the excuse for taking Chasm out at the knees was that he was too prevalent Jane absolutely hits that metric. If it was because he was too good unboosted Jane hits that metric.

Passive board shake is massively OP. She'd be fine if you made her blue conditional like every single other character in the tier with board shake.

Chasm wasn’t adjusted because he was to prevalent, he was adjusted because he was so different to beat, especially with the resurrection meta when paired with iHulk and other resurrection toons. Jane is easily beaten, but does occasionally get a lucky cascade. I’m always glad to see Jane in PvP. Those are some fast and easy high point matches.

A better metric on how OP a character is in PvP might be defensive win rate.

Jane really isn’t OP, but it would be nice to have a stronger counter. A new 5 star with a power similar to 4* Deadpool’s purple power would end Jane’s reign as meta.

Ascended 4 star Deadpool?

Maybe. I guess we'll see what happens when the reports start coming in. I'm not in a position to do so yet. In any event, it can be easier to roster/champ a new 5-star than it would be for most people to ascend a 4-star character to use as a counter.

entrailbucket

I can't speak to what it's like for those who don't have the boosted guys, or who don't have them usable. I can only know the situation I'm in, and it's gotten much better.

For me, when Chasm was king, I was running 672s and getting trivially stomped by 550 Chasm. I could beat him, but it wasn't easy a lot of the time. He was better than characters 100+ levels ahead of him, and that's not good.

With Thor teams now I don't have that problem. I can beat her down with the boosted guys easily, even if they throw Colossus or some other defender in there. Those teams can beat me sometimes, but it's not consistent. It's certainly not a Chasm situation.

I felt really bad this last event for all the sad rosters who only have 550 Thor and Colossus -- if they'd gone all in on good characters like Starlord and Gambit, we could've had a fair fight.

Vhailorx

@nwahs086 said:

@Zalasta said:

@revskip said:
In fact just scrolling through my other matches nearly all of them have some combination of Jane in them. If the excuse for taking Chasm out at the knees was that he was too prevalent Jane absolutely hits that metric. If it was because he was too good unboosted Jane hits that metric.

Passive board shake is massively OP. She'd be fine if you made her blue conditional like every single other character in the tier with board shake.

Chasm wasn’t adjusted because he was to prevalent, he was adjusted because he was so different to beat, especially with the resurrection meta when paired with iHulk and other resurrection toons. Jane is easily beaten, but does occasionally get a lucky cascade. I’m always glad to see Jane in PvP. Those are some fast and easy high point matches.

A better metric on how OP a character is in PvP might be defensive win rate.

Jane really isn’t OP, but it would be nice to have a stronger counter. A new 5 star with a power similar to 4* Deadpool’s purple power would end Jane’s reign as meta.

Ascended 4 star Deadpool?

Dp's purple is great against fosthor, but you have to survive her turn. What we really need is something like the sybiant mutant's passive that immediately does damage for friendly tile destruction. That would be a very good counter to Jane, just pair that passive damage with someone who can flood the board with specials. Then fosthor will kill herself.

Overall I agree with zalasta. The problem with chasm is that he was difficult and not very fun to play against. Fosthor is occasionally frustrating when she gets a mega cascade. But to me it feels like fighting gritty back in 2018. It can punish you quickly if the ai gets board luck, but there are plenty of viable ways to fight them with a good chance of success.

kuntilanak

The issue with MThor is that her passive not only gotten rid of special tiles very effectively, but also collects TONS of APs due to 'lucky' cascades afterwards. In that. her team will decimate the opponent very easily. But somehow that's pretty common when the AI controls her. I have her champed but rarely uses her as she doesn't process cascades as often as the AI does. YMMV.

The same issue can be said for those characters being nerfed to the ground, like Gambit, Bishop and Worthy Cap. I was there when Gambit reigned terror as PVP queues where full of 3Gambit at 0-0-5 + Miles and Spider-Gwen, which by turn 3, you loose regardless, because this particular 3Gambit build generates tons of red + purple (pink? I dunno...) APs every turn without any drawbacks and the other 2 just stun locks the opponent team, both in offense and defense.

Bishop and Worthy Cap generate APs under certain conditions, but those conditions were VERY EASILY TRIGGERED. Essentially their team gets truck loads of APs in just 2-3 turns (in the case of Worthy Cap, with the right partners), which then decimates opponents immediately, again both in offense and defense.

So they're nerfed to oblivion.

MThor is fairly similar to the above situations, but not as prominent, and you can beat her fairly easily with certain characters and tag-on boosts, so I don't see the dev will do anything about it. After all, higher usage of health packs and boosts = more sales -> profit...?

Vhailorx

@kuntilanak said:
The issue with MThor is that her passive not only gotten rid of special tiles very effectively, but also collects TONS of APs due to 'lucky' cascades afterwards. In that. her team will decimate the opponent very easily. But somehow that's pretty common when the AI controls her. I have her champed but rarely uses her as she doesn't process cascades as often as the AI does. YMMV.

The same issue can be said for those characters being nerfed to the ground, like Gambit, Bishop and Worthy Cap. I was there when Gambit reigned terror as PVP queues where full of 3Gambit at 0-0-5 + Miles and Spider-Gwen, which by turn 3, you loose regardless, because this particular 3Gambit build generates tons of red + purple (pink? I dunno...) APs every turn without any drawbacks and the other 2 just stun locks the opponent team, both in offense and defense.

Bishop and Worthy Cap generate APs under certain conditions, but those conditions were VERY EASILY TRIGGERED. Essentially their team gets truck loads of APs in just 2-3 turns (in the case of Worthy Cap, with the right partners), which then decimates opponents immediately, again both in offense and defense.

So they're nerfed to oblivion.

MThor is fairly similar to the above situations, but not as prominent, and you can beat her fairly easily with certain characters and tag-on boosts, so I don't see the dev will do anything about it. After all, higher usage of health packs and boosts = more sales -> profit...?

(1) confirmation bias

(2) stunner Bros did not just generate AP. They generated specific ap that they could they use to stun as early as turn 1. And it was basically impossible to avoid proc'ing them with a 5* team (they were not a problem at all in 4*-only play).

(3) if one can "beat her fairly easily" as per your post then what exactly is the problem here?

revskip

@entrailbucket said:
I can't speak to what it's like for those who don't have the boosted guys, or who don't have them usable. I can only know the situation I'm in, and it's gotten much better.

For me, when Chasm was king, I was running 672s and getting trivially stomped by 550 Chasm. I could beat him, but it wasn't easy a lot of the time. He was better than characters 100+ levels ahead of him, and that's not good.

With Thor teams now I don't have that problem. I can beat her down with the boosted guys easily, even if they throw Colossus or some other defender in there. Those teams can beat me sometimes, but it's not consistent. It's certainly not a Chasm situation.

I felt really bad this last event for all the sad rosters who only have 550 Thor and Colossus -- if they'd gone all in on good characters like Starlord and Gambit, we could've had a fair fight.

That's the thing. At different MMR we are seeing very different things. You had massive issues taking down Chasm teams at 550. I don't argue that, I don't think you have any reason to lie about it. That was not at all my experience at a lower MMR. Chasm teams were fun to hunt at a lower MMR and they were giving me 75 points a pop. My own Chasm was an effective scarecrow but I routinely got hit by bigger rosters running boosted characters. As it should be.

You find mThor to be trivial and aren't seeing her at 550 a lot against your boosted guys. I am seeing a wall of mThor. And when I run boosted characters they aren't a deterrent.

Both things can be true.

Bad

@revskip said:

By the time they actually nerfed him there were plenty of very reasonable counters to that team. Including running Jane/Riri. Partly because she is just as OP as he was.

No. There weren't very reasonable counters. The counters for chasm sucked. Chasm only could be reasonable countered by another chasm. That way you didn't get all the damage and had to use a lot of health packs each time fighting him.

No. She isn't as OP as chasm and never has been. And can be beat by any team (again not like chasm even now with his rebalance).

She is pretty popular because she is a fine partner for the other king, SC. She offers a mild defense with rng board which can kind of success. And if SC can't continue his combo she can shake the board and give another chance. Or if SC loses combo and downed she can struggle to win.
You only have to see where she appears the most. Until 500 points she is everywhere. After that, not so much, or maybe some climber challenging their luck.
Chasm is the opposite, as the slow defensive character he is.
And for those reasons Mthor is totally different and never will see a nerf because she doesn't need it.