Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?

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  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @kuntilanak said:
    The issue with MThor is that her passive not only gotten rid of special tiles very effectively, but also collects TONS of APs due to 'lucky' cascades afterwards. In that. her team will decimate the opponent very easily. But somehow that's pretty common when the AI controls her. I have her champed but rarely uses her as she doesn't process cascades as often as the AI does. YMMV.

    The same issue can be said for those characters being nerfed to the ground, like Gambit, Bishop and Worthy Cap. I was there when Gambit reigned terror as PVP queues where full of 3Gambit at 0-0-5 + Miles and Spider-Gwen, which by turn 3, you loose regardless, because this particular 3Gambit build generates tons of red + purple (pink? I dunno...) APs every turn without any drawbacks and the other 2 just stun locks the opponent team, both in offense and defense.

    Bishop and Worthy Cap generate APs under certain conditions, but those conditions were VERY EASILY TRIGGERED. Essentially their team gets truck loads of APs in just 2-3 turns (in the case of Worthy Cap, with the right partners), which then decimates opponents immediately, again both in offense and defense.

    So they're nerfed to oblivion.

    MThor is fairly similar to the above situations, but not as prominent, and you can beat her fairly easily with certain characters and tag-on boosts, so I don't see the dev will do anything about it. After all, higher usage of health packs and boosts = more sales -> profit...? :D

    (1) confirmation bias

    (2) stunner Bros did not just generate AP. They generated specific ap that they could they use to stun as early as turn 1. And it was basically impossible to avoid proc'ing them with a 5* team (they were not a problem at all in 4*-only play).

    (3) if one can "beat her fairly easily" as per your post then what exactly is the problem here?

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,010 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    I can't speak to what it's like for those who don't have the boosted guys, or who don't have them usable. I can only know the situation I'm in, and it's gotten much better.

    For me, when Chasm was king, I was running 672s and getting trivially stomped by 550 Chasm. I could beat him, but it wasn't easy a lot of the time. He was better than characters 100+ levels ahead of him, and that's not good.

    With Thor teams now I don't have that problem. I can beat her down with the boosted guys easily, even if they throw Colossus or some other defender in there. Those teams can beat me sometimes, but it's not consistent. It's certainly not a Chasm situation.

    I felt really bad this last event for all the sad rosters who only have 550 Thor and Colossus -- if they'd gone all in on good characters like Starlord and Gambit, we could've had a fair fight.

    That's the thing. At different MMR we are seeing very different things. You had massive issues taking down Chasm teams at 550. I don't argue that, I don't think you have any reason to lie about it. That was not at all my experience at a lower MMR. Chasm teams were fun to hunt at a lower MMR and they were giving me 75 points a pop. My own Chasm was an effective scarecrow but I routinely got hit by bigger rosters running boosted characters. As it should be.

    You find mThor to be trivial and aren't seeing her at 550 a lot against your boosted guys. I am seeing a wall of mThor. And when I run boosted characters they aren't a deterrent.

    Both things can be true.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    @revskip said:

    By the time they actually nerfed him there were plenty of very reasonable counters to that team. Including running Jane/Riri. Partly because she is just as OP as he was.

    No. There weren't very reasonable counters. The counters for chasm sucked. Chasm only could be reasonable countered by another chasm. That way you didn't get all the damage and had to use a lot of health packs each time fighting him.

    No. She isn't as OP as chasm and never has been. And can be beat by any team (again not like chasm even now with his rebalance).

    She is pretty popular because she is a fine partner for the other king, SC. She offers a mild defense with rng board which can kind of success. And if SC can't continue his combo she can shake the board and give another chance. Or if SC loses combo and downed she can struggle to win.
    You only have to see where she appears the most. Until 500 points she is everywhere. After that, not so much, or maybe some climber challenging their luck.
    Chasm is the opposite, as the slow defensive character he is.
    And for those reasons Mthor is totally different and never will see a nerf because she doesn't need it.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 90 Match Maker

    @Vhailorx said:

    @kuntilanak said:
    The issue with MThor is that her passive not only gotten rid of special tiles very effectively, but also collects TONS of APs due to 'lucky' cascades afterwards. In that. her team will decimate the opponent very easily. But somehow that's pretty common when the AI controls her. I have her champed but rarely uses her as she doesn't process cascades as often as the AI does. YMMV.

    The same issue can be said for those characters being nerfed to the ground, like Gambit, Bishop and Worthy Cap. I was there when Gambit reigned terror as PVP queues where full of 3Gambit at 0-0-5 + Miles and Spider-Gwen, which by turn 3, you loose regardless, because this particular 3Gambit build generates tons of red + purple (pink? I dunno...) APs every turn without any drawbacks and the other 2 just stun locks the opponent team, both in offense and defense.

    Bishop and Worthy Cap generate APs under certain conditions, but those conditions were VERY EASILY TRIGGERED. Essentially their team gets truck loads of APs in just 2-3 turns (in the case of Worthy Cap, with the right partners), which then decimates opponents immediately, again both in offense and defense.

    So they're nerfed to oblivion.

    MThor is fairly similar to the above situations, but not as prominent, and you can beat her fairly easily with certain characters and tag-on boosts, so I don't see the dev will do anything about it. After all, higher usage of health packs and boosts = more sales -> profit...? :D

    (1) confirmation bias

    (2) stunner Bros did not just generate AP. They generated specific ap that they could they use to stun as early as turn 1. And it was basically impossible to avoid proc'ing them with a 5* team (they were not a problem at all in 4*-only play).

    (3) if one can "beat her fairly easily" as per your post then what exactly is the problem here?

    (1) that's why i said YMMV. for me, it just didn't work out as i thought.

    (2) that's what i was trying to say, though not in that specific manner. the real deal was way too easily generate APs.

    (3) she can just as easily wipe you. at turn 3 or less. you may say RNG goes both ways, but when AI lose, it has no impact, but when player lost, it costs health packs and/or boosts, and slows you down a bit if you're trying to do the push. you can argue that there are plenty of characters to choose from, but in reality, there are only handful of characters can deal with MThor. at least in my reality... and she's everywhere.

  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,965 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    Use Jane lol. If you nerf Jane, OR needs to be next as she’s my only way to deal with his countdown and not eat a bunch of damage. After OR might as well just nerf everyone good.

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 90 Match Maker

    @Bad said:

    @revskip said:

    By the time they actually nerfed him there were plenty of very reasonable counters to that team. Including running Jane/Riri. Partly because she is just as OP as he was.

    No. There weren't very reasonable counters. The counters for chasm sucked. Chasm only could be reasonable countered by another chasm. That way you didn't get all the damage and had to use a lot of health packs each time fighting him.

    No. She isn't as OP as chasm and never has been. And can be beat by any team (again not like chasm even now with his rebalance).

    She is pretty popular because she is a fine partner for the other king, SC. She offers a mild defense with rng board which can kind of success. And if SC can't continue his combo she can shake the board and give another chance. Or if SC loses combo and downed she can struggle to win.
    You only have to see where she appears the most. Until 500 points she is everywhere. After that, not so much, or maybe some climber challenging their luck.
    Chasm is the opposite, as the slow defensive character he is.
    And for those reasons Mthor is totally different and never will see a nerf because she doesn't need it.

    Before the nerf, Chasm was difficult to handle mainly because a) he is almost always paired with the immortals and he's revival was easily triggered, and b) he drains ALL APs on both sides (except team-ups) very fast, so firing powers to end the match quickly usually is not an option. even with lucky cascade, you may not gather enough APs to use powers as he easily floods the board with the Abyss tiles. i tried mirror-matching before the nerf and it always ended up in a stalemate where i had to retreat at the end. that really sucks...

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    he's not difficult to deal with, just drawn out the match due to his damage mitigation. if you can bring a stunner along, then he's technically a pushover... :p

  • JoeHandle
    JoeHandle Posts: 522 Critical Contributor
    edited November 2023

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    he's not difficult to deal with, just drawn out the match due to his damage mitigation. if you can bring a stunner along, then he's technically a pushover... :p

    He doesn't mitigate power damage, so match, match, nuke; even easier with boosts.

    Jane can be dealt with as any other traditional "threat" has been, match away tiles, slow or stop her use of powers, stun her, send her flying, etc. Use a board control team to ensure she gets few or zero turns. My favorite is ... pound her into the dirt with boosted 5 * match dmg. Works great against ... just about anything, including Quandary :D

    I assume (assume...) this MThor frustration is driven by ...

    ... her not being as universally owned as ... say ... Shang is

    ... her actually have defensive value as ... say ... Shang does not

    ... her requiring matches to develop quickly , within 3-5 turns, a requirement that shuts out troll teams that weaker rosters rely on to beat stronger teams by not allowing enough time to gather needed AP, spam/ buff tiles and leverage them enough times, etc.

    ... her being most common amongst players that have recently (read: since Chasm) "jumped" from 4 * to 5 * play; being one of the few or only options these players have, they use her all the time, so players that are just behind or at the same level of roster development that are being matched with these players are seeing her ALL the time ... the second Chasm was nerfed it was suddenly Shang / MThor on every node, where once had been Chasm, given the appearrance of MThor having "replaced" Chasm and being as problematic. "Now she's just as omnipresent (not true); Chasm was nerfed for being omnipresent (not true); MThor must be nerfed!" ... Meanwhile players with more developed 5 * rosters see more variety, and have more options to employ, and thus see no reason to complain.

    ... sour grapes / butthurt.

    Meanwhile, objectively, MThor /= (pre-nerf) Chasm

    .

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards

    @JoeHandle said:
    ... her requiring matches to develop quickly , within 3-5 turns, a requirement that shuts out troll teams that weaker rosters rely on to beat stronger teams by not allowing enough time to gather needed AP, spam/ buff tiles and leverage them enough times, etc.

    Just to be clear, troll teams are only on defense. They mostly consist of teams designed to do a lot of cheap auto damage so players skip you to avoid using health packs.

    Glass cannon teams are what weaker rosters use to punch up against stronger teams since they have zero value on defense.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    At 550 I think Omega Red only has 200k HP -- Colossus passive isn't in effect on turn 0, so I can take 50k+ off with the first move. Then he's fairly close to one-shot range for most powers.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    At 550 I think Omega Red only has 200k HP -- Colossus passive isn't in effect on turn 0, so I can take 50k+ off with the first move. Then he's fairly close to one-shot range for most powers.

    I know how WE handle that team.
    I was more curious how people who think Jane is problematic deal with them.
    Also yeah that damage reduction not being in place for turn 0 surprised me.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,641 Chairperson of the Boards

    I want to jump in here and say...this sub is 10 pages long for a hero that can get chunked down in 3 turns.

    SheThor is great in PvE but is next to worthless in PvP. If you bring her against another SheThor you will probably lose. Her value is to scare you to attack her. But, she is nowhere near as strong as Chasm. She has no damage reduction and no healing...so good luck. Her usable partners are limited and all of those partners are also glass cannons.

    If you bring her against other teams, then you probably have better options.
    Really if I had to bring her, I would toss out SheThor and RiRi just to mess with people, but I use neither in PvP. It will be even worse for her when Cosmo and Worthy Cap get ascended.

    Even the hint of an idea that she needs to be balanced or nerfed or reduced is nearly laughable. Since she has shown up so often in PvP recently I skip far less frequently and when I see SC SheThor I always hit it.

    Yes she makes some heroes less viable, but there are plenty of options to beat her up.

    Such a wild thread to even entertain. People complained about Chasm because of him and iHulk. SheThor has NO iHulk equivalent partner.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    Even though MThor can be beaten, you have to admit that her cascades => match dmg => AP production is far beyond everyone else. Colossus is a good counter but he’s not invincible to her. Scarlet Witch could also counter. But they don’t stop her AP production.

    As for fighting against Omega: … MThor, Kitty and Switch counter him well.

    Chasm can be beaten with Omega & Colossus pretty easily.

  • kuntilanak
    kuntilanak Posts: 90 Match Maker

    @JoeHandle said:

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    he's not difficult to deal with, just drawn out the match due to his damage mitigation. if you can bring a stunner along, then he's technically a pushover... :p

    He doesn't mitigate power damage, so match, match, nuke; even easier with boosts.

    Jane can be dealt with as any other traditional "threat" has been, match away tiles, slow or stop her use of powers, stun her, send her flying, etc. Use a board control team to ensure she gets few or zero turns. My favorite is ... pound her into the dirt with boosted 5 * match dmg. Works great against ... just about anything, including Quandary :D

    I assume (assume...) this MThor frustration is driven by ...

    ... her not being as universally owned as ... say ... Shang is

    ... her actually have defensive value as ... say ... Shang does not

    ... her requiring matches to develop quickly , within 3-5 turns, a requirement that shuts out troll teams that weaker rosters rely on to beat stronger teams by not allowing enough time to gather needed AP, spam/ buff tiles and leverage them enough times, etc.

    ... her being most common amongst players that have recently (read: since Chasm) "jumped" from 4 * to 5 * play; being one of the few or only options these players have, they use her all the time, so players that are just behind or at the same level of roster development that are being matched with these players are seeing her ALL the time ... the second Chasm was nerfed it was suddenly Shang / MThor on every node, where once had been Chasm, given the appearrance of MThor having "replaced" Chasm and being as problematic. "Now she's just as omnipresent (not true); Chasm was nerfed for being omnipresent (not true); MThor must be nerfed!" ... Meanwhile players with more developed 5 * rosters see more variety, and have more options to employ, and thus see no reason to complain.

    ... sour grapes / butthurt.

    Meanwhile, objectively, MThor /= (pre-nerf) Chasm

    .

    I totally forgot about big C not mitigating power damage :D

    And, no, i don't want her nerfed as it's not really helping the game in the essential way, only drives a lot of players up the wall.

    @bbigler said:
    Even though MThor can be beaten, you have to admit that her cascades => match dmg => AP production is far beyond everyone else. Colossus is a good counter but he’s not invincible to her. Scarlet Witch could also counter. But they don’t stop her AP production.

    As for fighting against Omega: … MThor, Kitty and Switch counter him well.

    Chasm can be beaten with Omega & Colossus pretty easily.

    That's what I've been trying to say. MThor generates way more AP on her passive than anyone else (in the hands(?) of the AI, not so much when i use her), aside from those pesky sentry goons (really despise the green one)...

    I hunt her in PVP almost exclusively (not mirror matching, mind you) since she has no healing and no damage mitigation, and she's almost everywhere from my POV, but everytime fighting her felt like playing roulette. I can tell most of the time in 3-4 turn if i can win or retreat the match. Sometimes i scrap a win from the barrel bottom... so praise thy RNG entity? :D

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    I feel like I'm fighting a different mthor than all the people talking about how great her ap generation is. I fight mthor in pvp non stop and almost never does she get enough ap to fire a single power. Sure, it can happen where her charged tiles are in a position where I can't match them away and then also a big cascade happens, but this is extremely rare.

    Her ap generation is nowhere near being beyond everyone else. Half thor, Hawkeye with a count down spammer, and dethlok/kang all are much better at ap production.

  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,010 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bowgentle said:
    If handling Jane is a problem, how do you guys deal with the elephant in the room, Omega Colossus?

    The best Chasm/iHulk counter team of Electro/HEvo works really well. Omega's countdown feeds HEvo quickly and one good firing of HEvo black on Omega turns his damage down to 1/1/1 per turn.

    Collosus will slow things down in the beginning but your HEvo will get huge 5-6 turns in and blue and black will be one shot solutions shortly after that point.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards

    @BriMan2222 I fight MThor all the time with Colossus & Omega and I’m lucky if she doesn’t fire her powers. Usually she does, which ranges from 1 to 5 times before she’s down. So who do you use to fight her that doesn’t invite other people to attack you?

  • DrClever
    DrClever Posts: 584 Critical Contributor

    @DAZ0273 said:

    @Scofie said:

    A defensive character is largely pointless ... arsenal

    I knew you was an honoury Gooner! ;)

    1-0 to the Mighty Thor.

    The Man in the Raincoat would have played Chasm non stop.

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @bbigler said:
    @BriMan2222 I fight MThor all the time with Colossus & Omega and I’m lucky if she doesn’t fire her powers. Usually she does, which ranges from 1 to 5 times before she’s down. So who do you use to fight her that doesn’t invite other people to attack you?

    Depends on the boost week. Last week I was hitting them with starlord/gambit and letting gambit use her charge creation against her to one shot her, This week I've been using half thor with ascended cyclops and cyclops red hits very hard as a 5 star and boosted and gains enough ap for it from thor quickly. On bad boost weeks I'm using Collosus/Apocolypse. Focus on matching her charged tiles and with the charged tile match damage and extra ap, I can usually one shot her with a power before she gets to do anything.

    I always bring +2 ap boosts in each color, and with Collosus/Apoc I just need to focus on matching mthor down a bit while collecting yelow, then red or black. Then fire apoc yellow followed by red to finish her. Or, with black I can wait a turn to let collosus get back in front and clobber her, or if I feel confident that apoc yellow countdowns are in safe enough places on the board and mthor is down low enough on hp I might even wait to fire off apoc black.

    Omega red/colossus are the other meta team going around, but I'm not sure how good a partner omega red is for colossus vs mthor. She's probably gonna destroy Omega's black tile most of the time which is his biggest feature, his yellow is rendered useless for the same issue, and neither colossus black or omega's red hit hard enough without a damage booster.

  • Punter1
    Punter1 Posts: 729 Critical Contributor

    Maybe already stated but these discussions on meta-characters feel as much a comment on the need for older characters to be blanket updated. In most recent weeks, I've seen MThor and happily taken her down with some decent newer boosted characters. She can perform well and does punch-up but is very beatable.

    This week though, the boosted selection is fairly poor. Halfthor is fine, but only shines when under 50% and becomes very squishy. Panther is a one-trick pony who doesn't do that trick very well when boosted. Doc Ock has been recently-reworked but the countdowns are too vulnerable. Spidey is just overall underwhelming.

    With this crew, MThor's strength is much more noticeable. They are all fairly vulnerable to her and I've reverted to adding MThor to my team in PVP.

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