Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?

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  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @bbigler said:
    @BriMan2222 Regarding matching her charged tiles as a solution: first, she creates 3 charged tiles at battle start, so even if you match 1 per turn while she creates 1 per turn, she still has 3 every turn to blow things up. Second, you can’t always match her charged tiles every turn, so then she gets ahead of you with 4, 5, 6 and so on. Third, even if you match her charged tiles every turn, you’re being forced to take those colors, which means you may be missing the colors you need or getting match 4-s. The match goes much better if I collect the colors I need to take her down quickly. If I focused on matching charged tiles, it would take longer and thus give her even more time to hurt me.

    She only creates 3 charged tiles at the beginning of the match if you have her blue at 4 or above. Maybe it's different in your MMR, but most of the 550 players are in agreement that all out offense on her red and yellow with a 5/3/5 build is the optimal set up for her. This means she only creates 2 charged tiles at the start of the match.

    It's rare that you can't match at least one of them to start the game. Then she is at only 1 charged tile on the board and it's pretty easy to match one away each turn. You should also have an outlet for most colors, unless you are running a team with too many overlapping colors. I usually have an outlet for any color, or at worst there is one color I don't have a use for. Playing a team with too much overlap by choice is a problem you are creating for yourself.

    You've stated that you are using teams that are not good against her because you don't want to have to worry about be being attacked as much with another team (You'll probably be attacked just as much using those teams anyway) and allowing her to hang around for a super long time (8+ turns) and now you're saying that you are choosing teams with too much color overlap to have a use for most AP. A lot of your problems with Mthor seem to be self inflicted.

  • bbigler
    bbigler Posts: 2,111 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    Here’s the irony: when browsing PVP teams to fight, I always choose to fight MThor teams over Omega teams or Boosted 5-stars. Everyone else is easy except Switch, Electro and Kitty who counter my Omega. But with all teams, I know what to expect, except MThor. Matches with her are more unpredictable. Sometimes she goes down easy and sometimes she bashes my team.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    I don't know.
    Out of 30 times, she goes berserk maybe once on me, and that mostly with yellow because Shang is kind enough to use his red over hers.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I started early today and did see a wall of Thor.

    I did some digging, and a lot of those players had way better options this week -- Kingpin, for example, is very strong when boosted. Why aren't people using the boosted characters? Why pick Thor over better options?

    It's so weird to me that people talk about wanting a diverse metagame, or rock/paper/scissors counterplay, and then use the same team every single event. If Thor gets nerfed, it'll be because of all of you and your total lack of desire to even try anything else.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    Let's see if you all understand it in this way: SC Mthor is the modern version of thorokoye team.
    Did okoye get a nerf because of being so used? Nope. And thor? Not at all.
    Will SC Mthor see a nerf? No way.
    I could use kingping, and if I have time I'll use him past 500 points to rank up a bit.
    But if it isn't the case, I'll continue playing SC Mthor because is faster and because it saves health packs, no matter who could be the characters boosted.
    Exactly like okoye did.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    I started early today and did see a wall of Thor.

    I did some digging, and a lot of those players had way better options this week -- Kingpin, for example, is very strong when boosted. Why aren't people using the boosted characters? Why pick Thor over better options?

    It's so weird to me that people talk about wanting a diverse metagame, or rock/paper/scissors counterplay, and then use the same team every single event. If Thor gets nerfed, it'll be because of all of you and your total lack of desire to even try anything else.

    Because KP is slow. I think it also depends on level of character. MPQ has thrown out SC and MT in almost every "special" celebration this year. My thought is that if you looked at the average level for SC and MT across the board, they have two of the highest levels amongst the players. There have been so many ways to boost them over the past couple of years. Heck, I even have them both at 550 and they are definitely my go to team in PVP. They can beat anybody, bringing the right boosts, within a couple of turns.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    I have Thor at 550 too, and the boosted characters are significantly stronger and better overall than she is, at much lower unboosted levels.

    Lots of the rosters I looked at had a ton of options -- again, why not at least try something else?

    Unless she really is the best by a mile, and she really does completely blow every other team out of the water, even when she's not boosted and they are....

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    Does everyone really prefer a game where only two characters on your roster have any use at all? You guys are all hoarding Latest and CP to make sure you can champion everyone -- why??? If you're just going to use the same two guys to do absolutely everything forever, what's the point?

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    @entrailbucket said:
    Does everyone really prefer a game where only two characters on your roster have any use at all? You guys are all hoarding Latest and CP to make sure you can champion everyone -- why??? If you're just going to use the same two guys to do absolutely everything forever, what's the point?

    Imo that's a personal question.
    And my personal answer is that after chasm's Black Year I'm already used to get 500 points in 15 wins, 20-25 minutes and that's it.
    Because I've found another game to play all the time I used to play pvp.
    If you want to play all type of characters, or play a lot of pvp that's perfectly fine.
    As fine as to play SC Mthor to get 500 points and call it a day.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    I have Thor at 550 too, and the boosted characters are significantly stronger and better overall than she is, at much lower unboosted levels.

    Lots of the rosters I looked at had a ton of options -- again, why not at least try something else?

    Unless she really is the best by a mile, and she really does completely blow every other team out of the water, even when she's not boosted and they are....

    And I disagree. KP is still slow. My SC/MT is much faster. I have no interest in doing slow just for variety. If you do, that is totally cool. But allow me to enjoy the faster team without saying that how I play is "bad".

    Why do I have to "try something else"? Because you think I should. I enjoy the game but it is a mobile game. Speed matters. So it is not fun for me to use KP just because you (or anyone else) think he is better. If it is fun for you, that is great. Go for it. But it is not fun for me.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I have Thor at 550 too, and the boosted characters are significantly stronger and better overall than she is, at much lower unboosted levels.

    Lots of the rosters I looked at had a ton of options -- again, why not at least try something else?

    Unless she really is the best by a mile, and she really does completely blow every other team out of the water, even when she's not boosted and they are....

    And I disagree. KP is still slow. My SC/MT is much faster. I have no interest in doing slow just for variety. If you do, that is totally cool. But allow me to enjoy the faster team without saying that how I play is "bad".

    Why do I have to "try something else"? Because you think I should. I enjoy the game but it is a mobile game. Speed matters. So it is not fun for me to use KP just because you (or anyone else) think he is better. If it is fun for you, that is great. Go for it. But it is not fun for me.

    So Thor is the fastest, strongest and best character by a mile -- in fact, she's so good that you have no desire or incentive to ever use any other character on your roster, even if they've been buffed and boosted above her level.

    See this, devs? Do you think that's an ok state for the game to be in? Do you think you'll be able to sell any other character while Thor is like this?

  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,287 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think for a lot of players its just a matter of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

    Personally, I like to mess around with a variety of teams from the boost list and see if I can find a fun, synergistic team. Fora lot of others though, they just want to win fast. They know mthor/shang works well and works fast so why bother learning new teams every week when old reliable does the trick.

    I find that way boring, and like to experiment with new teams but to each their own.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I have Thor at 550 too, and the boosted characters are significantly stronger and better overall than she is, at much lower unboosted levels.

    Lots of the rosters I looked at had a ton of options -- again, why not at least try something else?

    Unless she really is the best by a mile, and she really does completely blow every other team out of the water, even when she's not boosted and they are....

    And I disagree. KP is still slow. My SC/MT is much faster. I have no interest in doing slow just for variety. If you do, that is totally cool. But allow me to enjoy the faster team without saying that how I play is "bad".

    Why do I have to "try something else"? Because you think I should. I enjoy the game but it is a mobile game. Speed matters. So it is not fun for me to use KP just because you (or anyone else) think he is better. If it is fun for you, that is great. Go for it. But it is not fun for me.

    So Thor is the fastest, strongest and best character by a mile -- in fact, she's so good that you have no desire or incentive to ever use any other character on your roster, even if they've been buffed and boosted above her level.

    See this, devs? Do you think that's an ok state for the game to be in? Do you think you'll be able to sell any other character while Thor is like this?

    You are really, really on this aren't you? Just because I use them this way doesn't mean everyone does. In fact, the post above this proves that the way I play isn't preferred by others. And it doesn't mean they can't sell other characters. I gave you MY specific opinion.

    Not everyone would agree with me and not everyone has both of them at 550. Not everyone prefers speed. I do. I don't give a rat's patootie about coming up with some dream team that has amazing rainbow coverage. But that's just me. Other people love to come up with unique combinations. I don't. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and play the game their own way.

    Just because I like to play this way doesn't mean the game is not in an ok state. For some reason, you seem to think it does.

  • KGB
    KGB Posts: 3,236 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    Does everyone really prefer a game where only two characters on your roster have any use at all? You guys are all hoarding Latest and CP to make sure you can champion everyone -- why??? If you're just going to use the same two guys to do absolutely everything forever, what's the point?

    I'm one of those who only uses a few teams in PvP.

    The answer is that I play this game casually (that word again), not for depth of strategy (I play other games for that). So it's a time passer for me and I simply enjoy collecting the characters, covers, supports and leveling them up as a completionist. Thus having 1 or 2 teams I can simply use over and over again is perfect for me because I don't want to spend a whole lot of time thinking about battles when I have to do close to 100 a day between PvE and PvP and I have limited time to play.

    Now if I only had to do a handful of battles a day to get all the rewards, I'd be more than happy to experiment with teams and strategies. Or if PvP was against actual humans then again I'd be experimenting more and using more teams.

    KGB

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    I have Thor at 550 too, and the boosted characters are significantly stronger and better overall than she is, at much lower unboosted levels.

    Lots of the rosters I looked at had a ton of options -- again, why not at least try something else?

    Unless she really is the best by a mile, and she really does completely blow every other team out of the water, even when she's not boosted and they are....

    And I disagree. KP is still slow. My SC/MT is much faster. I have no interest in doing slow just for variety. If you do, that is totally cool. But allow me to enjoy the faster team without saying that how I play is "bad".

    Why do I have to "try something else"? Because you think I should. I enjoy the game but it is a mobile game. Speed matters. So it is not fun for me to use KP just because you (or anyone else) think he is better. If it is fun for you, that is great. Go for it. But it is not fun for me.

    So Thor is the fastest, strongest and best character by a mile -- in fact, she's so good that you have no desire or incentive to ever use any other character on your roster, even if they've been buffed and boosted above her level.

    See this, devs? Do you think that's an ok state for the game to be in? Do you think you'll be able to sell any other character while Thor is like this?

    You are really, really on this aren't you? Just because I use them this way doesn't mean everyone does. In fact, the post above this proves that the way I play isn't preferred by others. And it doesn't mean they can't sell other characters. I gave you MY specific opinion.

    Not everyone would agree with me and not everyone has both of them at 550. Not everyone prefers speed. I do. I don't give a rat's patootie about coming up with some dream team that has amazing rainbow coverage. But that's just me. Other people love to come up with unique combinations. I don't. Everyone is allowed to have their own opinion and play the game their own way.

    Just because I like to play this way doesn't mean the game is not in an ok state. For some reason, you seem to think it does.

    95% of the teams I saw today were Thor teams. You are not in a minority among the higher-end players, at all. Everyone is only using her. Nobody is coming up either unique teams -- that's the entire point of this!

    Also everyone prefers speed, including me. I do 100+ matches in 2 hours or less every event. I couldn't care less about rainbow coverage or experimentation for its own sake -- boosted Kingpin is straight up just faster than Thor. I can oneshot her easily with blue boosts. His green shreds and his black will slow her to a crawl.

    So why does no one even try him? Or Archangel, who is good now? Or ascended 1* Spidey, who's insane? I saw people who bought that deal and were still running Thor over him. Why? Why would you spend money on a character and then not even try him?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    Maybe people like Thor (and particularly Thor/Shang-Chi) because the game just plays itself while you watch?

    Autopilot teams certainly can have a place, but they should never be more effective than teams you actually have to play.

  • LavaManLee
    LavaManLee Posts: 1,434 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2023

    @entrailbucket said:
    Maybe people like Thor (and particularly Thor/Shang-Chi) because the game just plays itself while you watch?

    Autopilot teams certainly can have a place, but they should never be more effective than teams you actually have to play.

    That's ironic because one of the knocks on SC is that you have to think about placement and it slows his play down.

    You can think you are superior with playing something other than MT/SC but it is not an auto-pilot team. No more so than if one played with Apoc or Riri.

    They are just fast. Very, very fast. And if boosted KP were honestly THAT much faster, more (including me) would be playing him. But he isn't. Although I do know you mentioned above that he is.

    And, I was one of those who bought the 1* Spidey ascended deal. And I did try him, but he is simply not as good. Looking back, waste of money. But at the time I thought it might be interesting.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Maybe people like Thor (and particularly Thor/Shang-Chi) because the game just plays itself while you watch?

    Autopilot teams certainly can have a place, but they should never be more effective than teams you actually have to play.

    That's ironic because one of the knocks on SC is that you have to think about placement and it slows his play down.

    You can think you are superior with playing something other than MT/SC but it is not an auto-pilot team. No more so than if one played with Apoc or Riri.

    They are just fast. Very, very fast. And if boosted KP were honestly THAT much faster, more (including me) would be playing him. But he isn't. Although I do know you mentioned above that he is.

    And, I was one of those who bought the 1* Spidey ascended deal. And I did try him, but he is simply not as good. Looking back, waste of money. But at the time I thought it might be interesting.

    Ok great, so just to be clear, unboosted, Thor is strong and so fast that she can destroy every other team, including all the boosted characters, and she's faster and stronger than guys who are 100 or 200 levels higher than her.

    Does that sound like a balanced character? Aren't you just, like, openly admitting that she's massively overpowered?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,820 Chairperson of the Boards

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:

    @LavaManLee said:

    @entrailbucket said:
    Maybe people like Thor (and particularly Thor/Shang-Chi) because the game just plays itself while you watch?

    Autopilot teams certainly can have a place, but they should never be more effective than teams you actually have to play.

    That's ironic because one of the knocks on SC is that you have to think about placement and it slows his play down.

    You can think you are superior with playing something other than MT/SC but it is not an auto-pilot team. No more so than if one played with Apoc or Riri.

    They are just fast. Very, very fast. And if boosted KP were honestly THAT much faster, more (including me) would be playing him. But he isn't. Although I do know you mentioned above that he is.

    And, I was one of those who bought the 1* Spidey ascended deal. And I did try him, but he is simply not as good. Looking back, waste of money. But at the time I thought it might be interesting.

    Ok great, so just to be clear, unboosted, Thor is strong and so fast that she can destroy every other team, including all the boosted characters, and she's faster and stronger than guys who are 100 or 200 levels higher than her.

    Does that sound like a balanced character? Aren't you just, like, openly admitting that she's massively overpowered?

    No, I didn't say that at all. You conveniently seem to keep overlooking the part about me using MT with SC. I never said anything about MT being by herself could do everything. In fact, I have only mentioned using her with SC. Put her with, I dunno, 5* Vulture or a boosted KP or Archangel, and she's definitely not as valuable.

    And again, why are so on this? If you nerf MT than someone else is OP and the fastest. Do you nerf them also? It's like whack-a-mole. If it's not them, it's someone else. And after that someone else there is another someone else.

    I know in PVP you took great joy out of preventing people from reaching points. Does the same thing bother you so much with people using characters who are fun for them? If MT is so easy to beat (which you admit to with using KP) then why do you care so much?

    Shang-Chi is well known to be both slow and horrifically bad on defense, because he requires so much player skill. I have him at 550 too. He'd be much worse and much slower without Thor causing free cascades and charging tiles every turn.

    And sure, if they nerf Thor, someone else would be the fastest, but it sounds like, from what you said, that she's SO much stronger and faster than everyone else that the next best guy wouldn't really be as much of a problem.

    And yes, it's absolutely hilarious when they take away players' overpowered toys. A bunch of people just quit! It's awesome! Don't go all in, have a backup plan, don't depend on just one or two guys.

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