Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:
Maybe people like Thor (and particularly Thor/Shang-Chi) because the game just plays itself while you watch?

Autopilot teams certainly can have a place, but they should never be more effective than teams you actually have to play.

That's ironic because one of the knocks on SC is that you have to think about placement and it slows his play down.

You can think you are superior with playing something other than MT/SC but it is not an auto-pilot team. No more so than if one played with Apoc or Riri.

They are just fast. Very, very fast. And if boosted KP were honestly THAT much faster, more (including me) would be playing him. But he isn't. Although I do know you mentioned above that he is.

And, I was one of those who bought the 1* Spidey ascended deal. And I did try him, but he is simply not as good. Looking back, waste of money. But at the time I thought it might be interesting.

Ok great, so just to be clear, unboosted, Thor is strong and so fast that she can destroy every other team, including all the boosted characters, and she's faster and stronger than guys who are 100 or 200 levels higher than her.

Does that sound like a balanced character? Aren't you just, like, openly admitting that she's massively overpowered?

No, I didn't say that at all. You conveniently seem to keep overlooking the part about me using MT with SC. I never said anything about MT being by herself could do everything. In fact, I have only mentioned using her with SC. Put her with, I dunno, 5* Vulture or a boosted KP or Archangel, and she's definitely not as valuable.

And again, why are so on this? If you nerf MT than someone else is OP and the fastest. Do you nerf them also? It's like whack-a-mole. If it's not them, it's someone else. And after that someone else there is another someone else.

I know in PVP you took great joy out of preventing people from reaching points. Does the same thing bother you so much with people using characters who are fun for them? If MT is so easy to beat (which you admit to with using KP) then why do you care so much?

And, to answer your final question, no she does not sound massively overpowered. She is not overpowered because I can absolutely beat her with no problem. She doesn't bother me one bit. I don't skip her. I don't avoid her. I can beat her. So she is not OP in my opinion.

So a character cannot ever be overpowered on offense? Only a defensive character can be overpowered? That's an... interesting take!

Bowgentle

Every time Bucket finds ONE person who apparently proves his point, we go in circles again.
Stop doing this to yourself, people.
And I'll continue running the one team that truly is everywhere, Omega Colossus.

Bad

@entrailbucket said:

Shang-Chi is well known to be both slow and horrifically bad on defense, because he requires so much player skill. I have him at 550 too. He'd be much worse and much slower without Thor causing free cascades and charging tiles every turn.

You can have him at 550, but you don't use him ever.
If not you wouldn't say silly things like autopilot mode(precisely with SC), or that Mthor is overpowered, or that SC really needs Mthor for anything.
Mthor just offers a good balance in performance and defense.
Just nothing more.
Try them out and then you'd have a contrasted opinion. Not like now.

bbigler

I can’t believe this thread is still going….

Ironically, I’ll say this …. People play a hundred battles a day to get the rewards. Over time they use those rewards to get better characters (or level up existing ones). They do that because they want to win faster and/or easier. They want this because they don’t want to spend a lot of time playing the game but they still want all the rewards. But the purpose of the rewards is to get better characters and win faster.

So, ultimately people are spending their time playing for the purpose of reducing their time playing. It’s like spending $100 in order to save $10. This is a pointless and futile exercise - grinding away at a game so that you don’t have to grind away at a game. Does anybody enjoy playing the same handful of characters ad nauseum every day?

I think too many people playing this game are stuck in a metaphorical hamster wheel, looking to a future where they spend less time in the wheel. But guess what? You can get off the hamster wheel, no one is forcing you to run on it. But I suppose those people are addicted to the aspect of steadily leveling up and are willing to grind away in endless mindless battles to feel good about that.

I applaud the players who want to simply explore all the different combinations and strategies of the game instead. They’re not satisfied doing the same thing all day every day, but require more intellectual stimulation.

If you’re wondering where I stand on this matter, I have a foot on both sides. I like the steady improvement but hate the grind, I like trying new teams but hate missing out on rewards. Being fast isn’t always fun, and having fun isn’t always fast.

Bowgentle

PVE is grind.
PVP can be whatever you want it to be.

Bad

@bbigler said:

I applaud the players who want to simply explore all the different combinations and strategies of the game instead. They’re not satisfied doing the same thing all day every day, but require more intellectual stimulation.

And so saids someone as vet as entrailbucket and however having a new player roster because of quitting and erasing your account many times.
Sorry if I don't hear your advices about how this game must be played.

DrClever

@bbigler said:
Being fast isn’t always fun, and having fun isn’t always fast.

Have you been talking to my girlfriend again?

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:
Every time Bucket finds ONE person who apparently proves his point, we go in circles again.
Stop doing this to yourself, people.
And I'll continue running the one team that truly is everywhere, Omega Colossus.

I agree that nobody should ever talk to me. How on earth has nobody learned that yet, after however many years?

DAZ0273

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
Every time Bucket finds ONE person who apparently proves his point, we go in circles again.
Stop doing this to yourself, people.
And I'll continue running the one team that truly is everywhere, Omega Colossus.

I agree that nobody should ever talk to me. How on earth has nobody learned that after yet, however many years?

Can you quote yourself saying that 10 times in the last year? 😉😉😉😀

entrailbucket

I think a lot of players really do want a diverse metagame, where their roster matters and lots of characters are usable. Look at the complaints when a new 5* gets released -- people want them to be good.
When they buff characters, people want them to be good.

The boosts, plus all the buffs, have given us that, more than this game has ever had it. I never used "meta" teams, because I'm super cool and intellectual and fun (this is sarcasm, I'm well aware that I'm an insufferable jerk), but now the "meta" teams really aren't your best option anymore. The boosted characters are SO strong, especially modern guys or buffed guys, that they blow the "meta" teams out of the water. Chasm screwed that up for awhile, but now he's gone.

So how did we end up right back at the same place? Do people even want other characters to be good? Does anyone even try to use anyone else? How can so many complain about disappointing new characters and disappointing buffs and ascension being difficult when all they want is to use the same 2 guys for everything forever, and they'll never even try anyone else?

bbigler

@Bad said:

@bbigler said:

I applaud the players who want to simply explore all the different combinations and strategies of the game instead. They’re not satisfied doing the same thing all day every day, but require more intellectual stimulation.

And so saids someone as vet as entrailbucket and however having a new player roster because of quitting and erasing your account many times.
Sorry if I don't hear your advices about how this game must be played.

I didn’t say how it should be played, but I did say how people are playing it and I wanted to point out the irony that people play the game in order to reduce their time playing the game. But I’m not implying that I’m perfect or free from human flaws.

In my case, I like exploring new teams/strategies, but then I quickly get caught up in the enjoyment of roster progression and grind away at every event just to speed along my progression. This routine is so taxing on my real life that I quit the game for my own good. But then a year later I’m curious about what’s going on in the game and check things out. Before I know it, I’m hooked again and have to subsequently quit again for my own good.

I’ve also come to realize that I don’t care about being on top. A 550 roster isn’t going to make me any happier, but exceeding my past performance does. Hence, the roster restarts. And while I’m on the subject, I do plan to quit again soon, then you’ll have 1 less person to argue with.

Bad

Contrary to the popular belief, I don't enjoy to argue with others.

@bbigler said:

In my case, I like exploring new teams/strategies, but then I quickly get caught up in the enjoyment of roster progression and grind away at every event just to speed along my progression. This routine is so taxing on my real life that I quit the game for my own good. But then a year later I’m curious about what’s going on in the game and check things out. Before I know it, I’m hooked again and have to subsequently quit again for my own good.

See? Now we are scratching more layers here. It's not as easy as to say players want rewards in order to play less.
Now we have apart from how they want to play the game, how they prefer it, how they can, and also how they can handle it.

KGB

@entrailbucket said:
I think a lot of players really do want a diverse metagame, where their roster matters and lots of characters are usable. Look at the complaints when a new 5* gets released -- people want them to be good.
When they buff characters, people want them to be good.

So how did we end up right back at the same place? Do people even want other characters to be good? Does anyone even try to use anyone else? How can so many complain about disappointing new characters and disappointing buffs and ascension being difficult when all they want is to use the same 2 guys for everything forever, and they'll never even try anyone else?

Definitely the people on these forums want the new characters to be good. Especially when its a requested favorite like Omega Red.

Players seem to really like simple to use characters (ie ones without complex power descriptions and ones who don't require complex teams or complex power interaction as in multiple powers need to be fired to achieve the win). That's why passive damage teams like Omega Red and Polaris (and pre nerf Chasm) etc are all the rage and why a lot of new complex characters aren't well received.

There is something else I've been thinking about. Maybe players don't care to use many teams of their own, but rather they'd like a variety of teams to fight against. This sort of makes sense when you see how often we get posts or monthly questions about new PvEs or new game modes. I wonder these players who use the same teams over and over (like me) are happy with that as long as they can queue an infinite variety of interesting teams to fight.

KGB

entrailbucket

So...you see the problem there, right?

If you use the same team for everything, and most other players use the same team for everything, then all you'll ever see is the same team.

That's the problem with a player vs player game. If there's only one best strategy, or weapon, or deck, or whatever it is, then every player has a strong incentive to only ever use that strongest thing, and the metagame becomes tremendously boring. Other competitive multiplayer games fix this by making sure there are multiple viable characters, or teams, or decks, and doing nerfs/buffs/bans/whatever to maintain that.

In MPQ, there's this bizarre attitude like "Why do you care what I use? It's none of your business! Leave me alone and let me just use the strong guy to beat all the enemies super fast!"

Except it is my business, because you're making the game boring for everyone else. Those other teams aren't computer controlled enemies, they're other players. No matter how badly some people want to pretend it's not, PvP is player vs player.

BriMan2222

We don't know what players are using in PVE though, from what I've seen on facebook, where most of the "casual" players seem to go to, most players don't seem to like or really understand pvp and mostly just stick to pve. They seem to just play a few matches in pvp and quit after hitting the first cp reward or shortly after that.

Maybe players are using all sorts of unique and fun teams in pve, and then when they decide to do pvp they just use the shang/mthor combo to get pvp done with asap.

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:
We don't know what players are using in PVE though, from what I've seen on facebook, where most of the "casual" players seem to go to, most players don't seem to like or really understand pvp and mostly just stick to pve. They seem to just play a few matches in pvp and quit after hitting the first cp reward or shortly after that.

Maybe players are using all sorts of unique and fun teams in pve, and then when they decide to do pvp they just use the shang/mthor combo to get pvp done with asap.

Then it's the devs' job to create stronger incentives for them to use something else in PvP, so the rest of us don't have to deal with a boring, stagnant metagame.

Bowgentle

I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

LavaManLee

I played MPQ for years before realizing there was even an optimal way to play it. I travel a lot for work and found it a diversion at the airport, waiting for a train, etc. > @entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:
We don't know what players are using in PVE though, from what I've seen on facebook, where most of the "casual" players seem to go to, most players don't seem to like or really understand pvp and mostly just stick to pve. They seem to just play a few matches in pvp and quit after hitting the first cp reward or shortly after that.

Maybe players are using all sorts of unique and fun teams in pve, and then when they decide to do pvp they just use the shang/mthor combo to get pvp done with asap.

Then it's the devs' job to create stronger incentives for them to use something else in PvP, so the rest of us don't have to deal with a boring, stagnant metagame.

Again, this is YOUR opinion. I don't mind hitting SC/MT at all. I don't find it boring or stagnant. Just because you do doesn't mean that is the be all end all and the devs should just acquiesce to that opinion.

I'm also ok that I understand that the above is my opinion. It just bothers me when people state opinions like they are fact. If you think PVP is boring and stagnant, that's fine. But it is opinion and not a fact.

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

LavaManLee

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

So which is it? Is it that there is no diversity? Or is it that nobody wants to try anything other than MT/SC?

According to you, there is plenty of diversity. We just don't want to try it. So wouldn't that be on us and not the devs? Yet you keep complaining to the devs to do something about MT. But, by your own admission, there is diversity. So what, exactly, should be done?

And, honestly, do you think that if something happens to MT there wouldn't be some other meta that would be found and used?