Prevalence of MThor and could she be the target of a rebalance?

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:
I played MPQ for years before realizing there was even an optimal way to play it. I travel a lot for work and found it a diversion at the airport, waiting for a train, etc. > @entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:
We don't know what players are using in PVE though, from what I've seen on facebook, where most of the "casual" players seem to go to, most players don't seem to like or really understand pvp and mostly just stick to pve. They seem to just play a few matches in pvp and quit after hitting the first cp reward or shortly after that.

Maybe players are using all sorts of unique and fun teams in pve, and then when they decide to do pvp they just use the shang/mthor combo to get pvp done with asap.

Then it's the devs' job to create stronger incentives for them to use something else in PvP, so the rest of us don't have to deal with a boring, stagnant metagame.

Again, this is YOUR opinion. I don't mind hitting SC/MT at all. I don't find it boring or stagnant. Just because you do doesn't mean that is the be all end all and the devs should just acquiesce to that opinion.

I'm also ok that I understand that the above is my opinion. It just bothers me when people state opinions like they are fact. If you think PVP is boring and stagnant, that's fine. But it is opinion and not a fact.

So, just to be clear, the game you prefer would be only Shang-Chi/Thor mirror matches in PvP, for every event, forever, and you don't think such a game would be stagnant or boring? You would never get bored of using the same characters to fight the same characters?

In this scenario, why would new characters ever exist?

entrailbucket

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

So which is it? Is it that there is no diversity? Or is it that nobody wants to try anything other than MT/SC.

According to you, there is plenty of diversity. We just don't want to try it. So wouldn't that be on us and not the devs? Yet you keep complaining to the devs to do something about MT. But, by your own admission, there is diversity. So what, exactly, should be done?

Boosted Kingpin is faster than Thor. I did over 100 matches in less than 2 hours yesterday, against Thor teams, using KP/1* Spidey. I have 550 Shang-Chi and Thor and wouldn't be able to do anywhere near that number with the unboosted team.

So why isn't anyone else even trying them? Why are you all using the exact same team to fight the exact same team? Why am I seeing "Kingpin is slow" when he's crazy fast?

I guess the problem is that the incentive the devs have created isn't strong enough. Maybe the boost should be 200 levels. Maybe you should pay some penalty for using the same team over and over again. Or maybe the character who can trivially, on autopilot, beat characters that are 200 levels stronger...is too strong.

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

So which is it? Is it that there is no diversity? Or is it that nobody wants to try anything other than MT/SC.

According to you, there is plenty of diversity. We just don't want to try it. So wouldn't that be on us and not the devs? Yet you keep complaining to the devs to do something about MT. But, by your own admission, there is diversity. So what, exactly, should be done?

Boosted Kingpin is faster than Thor. I did over 100 matches in less than 2 hours yesterday, against Thor teams, using KP/1* Spidey. I have 550 Shang-Chi and Thor and wouldn't be able to do anywhere near that number with the unboosted team.

So why isn't anyone else even trying them? Why are you all using the exact same team to fight the exact same team? Why am I seeing "Kingpin is slow" when he's crazy fast?

I guess the problem is that the incentive the devs have created isn't strong enough. Maybe the boost should be 200 levels. Maybe you should pay some penalty for using the same team over and over again. Or maybe the character who can trivially, on autopilot, beat characters that are 200 levels stronger...is too strong.

Kingpin is faster than thor for you. Your KP is lvl 522, boosted he's around 645 right? My kp is boosted to 576. I've messed around with him, but he's probably the slowest option of my boosted characters and other 550's.

I'm sure a lvl 645 kp steam rolls teams fast, but I'm sure that would also be true of just about any character boosted to that level. Most people probably only have him baby champed, if champed at all.

Zalasta

I used Kingpin exclusively and sought out mThor teams with no losses.

I think the bigger issue is that a large number of 5 stars are trash, even when boosted. Add to that the color overlap and lack of synergy in the weekly boost list, and players fall back to their easy button teams.

An awful amount of blue/green/black this week. Only one red power, and no yellow. I’m not using HE without another countdown manipulator, and certainly not against mThor teams.

TFrame

So, just to be clear, the game you prefer would be only Shang-Chi/Thor mirror matches in PvP, for every event, forever, and you don't think such a game would be stagnant or boring? You would never get bored of using the same characters to fight the same characters?

In this scenario, why would new characters ever exist?

I really don't understand what you're talking about. I just cycled through 15 teams and they were all Kingpin/someone, Archangel/someone, or OR/Colossus. Did I see Mthor's while climbing? Yes. Did I fight and beat them all in 3 turns with Ascended Spiderman? Yes.

There is no meta right now (arguably OR/Colossus) because every team is beatable by pretty much any roster in the same tier. That is why pvp is healthier now than before the Chasm nerf.

BriMan2222

@TFrame said:

So, just to be clear, the game you prefer would be only Shang-Chi/Thor mirror matches in PvP, for every event, forever, and you don't think such a game would be stagnant or boring? You would never get bored of using the same characters to fight the same characters?

In this scenario, why would new characters ever exist?

I really don't understand what you're talking about. I just cycled through 15 teams and they were all Kingpin/someone, Archangel/someone, or OR/Colossus. Did I see Mthor's while climbing? Yes. Did I fight and beat them all in 3 turns with Ascended Spiderman? Yes.

There is no meta right now (arguably OR/Colossus) because every team is beatable by pretty much any roster in the same tier. That is why pvp is healthier now than before the Chasm nerf.

Yeah, Bucket plays in one of the lowest scoring slices and in the last few hours of the pvp event when most people are already shielded and done. In the last few hours of an event the only people still playing are making a mad dash to hit their goal asap. Those people don't really have time to experiment with new characters and are just using the team they know to be "the fastest". The wall of Mthor may not exist in other slices and/or at earlier in the pvp event.

Occasionally real life doesn't allow me time to climb in slice 2 so I play slice 4 where I know I can hit 1200 quickly, and I see many more boosted teams and OR/colossus teams when I play in 4.

entrailbucket

I started earlier yesterday and every team was Thor. Also, a bunch of players in this thread are saying they see a wall of Thor in PvP, but it's actually a good thing because...reasons, I guess.

If there's no wall, then that's fine. But why are people here saying that there is a wall and that's the way they like it?

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

So which is it? Is it that there is no diversity? Or is it that nobody wants to try anything other than MT/SC.

According to you, there is plenty of diversity. We just don't want to try it. So wouldn't that be on us and not the devs? Yet you keep complaining to the devs to do something about MT. But, by your own admission, there is diversity. So what, exactly, should be done?

Boosted Kingpin is faster than Thor. I did over 100 matches in less than 2 hours yesterday, against Thor teams, using KP/1* Spidey. I have 550 Shang-Chi and Thor and wouldn't be able to do anywhere near that number with the unboosted team.

So why isn't anyone else even trying them? Why are you all using the exact same team to fight the exact same team? Why am I seeing "Kingpin is slow" when he's crazy fast?

I guess the problem is that the incentive the devs have created isn't strong enough. Maybe the boost should be 200 levels. Maybe you should pay some penalty for using the same team over and over again. Or maybe the character who can trivially, on autopilot, beat characters that are 200 levels stronger...is too strong.

Kingpin is faster than thor for you. Your KP is lvl 522, boosted he's around 645 right? My kp is boosted to 576. I've messed around with him, but he's probably the slowest option of my boosted characters and other 550's.

I'm sure a lvl 645 kp steam rolls teams fast, but I'm sure that would also be true of just about any character boosted to that level. Most people probably only have him baby champed, if champed at all.

But that's exactly the problem, isn't it? People not having Kingpin at all, or having other characters 100 levels ahead of him, is a symptom of the overall diversity problem. The devs haven't created enough incentive to stop players from ignoring everyone who's not the best guy.

Bowgentle

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

So which is it? Is it that there is no diversity? Or is it that nobody wants to try anything other than MT/SC.

According to you, there is plenty of diversity. We just don't want to try it. So wouldn't that be on us and not the devs? Yet you keep complaining to the devs to do something about MT. But, by your own admission, there is diversity. So what, exactly, should be done?

Boosted Kingpin is faster than Thor. I did over 100 matches in less than 2 hours yesterday, against Thor teams, using KP/1* Spidey. I have 550 Shang-Chi and Thor and wouldn't be able to do anywhere near that number with the unboosted team.

So why isn't anyone else even trying them? Why are you all using the exact same team to fight the exact same team? Why am I seeing "Kingpin is slow" when he's crazy fast?

I guess the problem is that the incentive the devs have created isn't strong enough. Maybe the boost should be 200 levels. Maybe you should pay some penalty for using the same team over and over again. Or maybe the character who can trivially, on autopilot, beat characters that are 200 levels stronger...is too strong.

Kingpin is faster than thor for you. Your KP is lvl 522, boosted he's around 645 right? My kp is boosted to 576. I've messed around with him, but he's probably the slowest option of my boosted characters and other 550's.

I'm sure a lvl 645 kp steam rolls teams fast, but I'm sure that would also be true of just about any character boosted to that level. Most people probably only have him baby champed, if champed at all.

But that's exactly the problem, isn't it? People not having Kingpin at all, or having other characters 100 levels ahead of him, is a symptom of the overall diversity problem. The devs haven't created enough incentive to stop players from ignoring everyone who's not the best guy.

Maybe "people" went all in on the 735 offers they did for anniversary, so they got a big Okoye, Shang, Jane now?
You can have a level 460 roster and a 550 trio if you spent enough in the last two months.
That's not "ignoring everybody".

TFrame

@entrailbucket said:
I started earlier yesterday and every team was Thor. Also, a bunch of players in this thread are saying they see a wall of Thor in PvP, but it's actually a good thing because...reasons, I guess.

If there's no wall, then that's fine. But why are people here saying that there is a wall and that's the way they like it?

You're still ignoring the fact that any Mthor team is easily beatable by pretty much any 5* roster. So, what, exactly is the problem?

TFrame

And trust me when I say any 5* roster. Mine is pretty awful, clownish some might say (cough Bow cough . And I seek out the mthor teams.

Bowgentle

I may upgrade your roster level from clown to pantomime, eventually.

entrailbucket

@TFrame said:

@entrailbucket said:
I started earlier yesterday and every team was Thor. Also, a bunch of players in this thread are saying they see a wall of Thor in PvP, but it's actually a good thing because...reasons, I guess.

If there's no wall, then that's fine. But why are people here saying that there is a wall and that's the way they like it?

You're still ignoring the fact that any Mthor team is easily beatable by pretty much any 5* roster. So, what, exactly is the problem?

So you don't think it's a problem for everyone to be running the same team, even if they're weak on defense? You don't think it's a problem that every character but two is irrelevant, and that all new characters are instantly DOA?

entrailbucket

@Bowgentle said:

@entrailbucket said:

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:

@LavaManLee said:

@entrailbucket said:

@Bowgentle said:
I don't mind hitting Shang Jane for high points though?
As long as I don't have to use them myself.
And round and round and round we go again.
What's the argument now, that PVP matches are too easy because of Shang Jane?
I think you lost me now.

That there's no diversity in the PvP metagame, AGAIN.

We went directly from a wall of Chasm/Hulk to a wall of Thor/Shang-Chi. That despite rotating +100 level boosts that create tons more viable options, people prefer to use the same two characters, and refuse to even try anything else. That new characters, and buffed characters, will have no impact on the metagame and will never get looked at or even tried.

So which is it? Is it that there is no diversity? Or is it that nobody wants to try anything other than MT/SC.

According to you, there is plenty of diversity. We just don't want to try it. So wouldn't that be on us and not the devs? Yet you keep complaining to the devs to do something about MT. But, by your own admission, there is diversity. So what, exactly, should be done?

Boosted Kingpin is faster than Thor. I did over 100 matches in less than 2 hours yesterday, against Thor teams, using KP/1* Spidey. I have 550 Shang-Chi and Thor and wouldn't be able to do anywhere near that number with the unboosted team.

So why isn't anyone else even trying them? Why are you all using the exact same team to fight the exact same team? Why am I seeing "Kingpin is slow" when he's crazy fast?

I guess the problem is that the incentive the devs have created isn't strong enough. Maybe the boost should be 200 levels. Maybe you should pay some penalty for using the same team over and over again. Or maybe the character who can trivially, on autopilot, beat characters that are 200 levels stronger...is too strong.

Kingpin is faster than thor for you. Your KP is lvl 522, boosted he's around 645 right? My kp is boosted to 576. I've messed around with him, but he's probably the slowest option of my boosted characters and other 550's.

I'm sure a lvl 645 kp steam rolls teams fast, but I'm sure that would also be true of just about any character boosted to that level. Most people probably only have him baby champed, if champed at all.

But that's exactly the problem, isn't it? People not having Kingpin at all, or having other characters 100 levels ahead of him, is a symptom of the overall diversity problem. The devs haven't created enough incentive to stop players from ignoring everyone who's not the best guy.

Maybe "people" went all in on the 735 offers they did for anniversary, so they got a big Okoye, Shang, Jane now?
You can have a level 460 roster and a 550 trio if you spent enough in the last two months.
That's not "ignoring everybody".

Imagine if 550ing those three characters put you into an actual 550 MMR, with players like me, instead of with 95% players who also had 3 characters at 550 and everyone else at 450. Imagine a game where you got 50% less points/wins for using the same team for more than 5 fights in a row. That would probably be a good incentive to not go all in.

TFrame

@entrailbucket said:

@TFrame said:

@entrailbucket said:
I started earlier yesterday and every team was Thor. Also, a bunch of players in this thread are saying they see a wall of Thor in PvP, but it's actually a good thing because...reasons, I guess.

If there's no wall, then that's fine. But why are people here saying that there is a wall and that's the way they like it?

You're still ignoring the fact that any Mthor team is easily beatable by pretty much any 5* roster. So, what, exactly is the problem?

So you don't think it's a problem for everyone to be running the same team, even if they're weak on defense? You don't think it's a problem that every character but two is irrelevant, and that all new characters are instantly DOA?

People can run whoever they want. Amd, again, I'm not seeing this wall of Mthor so.... I also never said every new character is DOA. Quite the opposite. What I said is that every team is beatable by every other team. Which is the mark of a healthy system. I haven't had a boosted 5 in weeks (other than ascended 1s) but I'm still able to play. And when I do have the boosted 5s, I'm not immune to attacks. All of this is good. Again, I don't understand the complaints. With Chasm it was different. Smaller rosters, even with boosted 5s, couldn't fight hulkasm. And hulkasm teams could float forever at 900pts. That was ridiculous. Now, everyone in a tier can compete. What more do you want?

Also, stop saying everyone is running Mthor/SC. They aren't. I've literally never run that team. Some do, up to a certain number of points. Then you stop seeing them because they don't survive higher than 700 or 800 for very long.

entrailbucket

@TFrame said:

@entrailbucket said:

@TFrame said:

@entrailbucket said:
I started earlier yesterday and every team was Thor. Also, a bunch of players in this thread are saying they see a wall of Thor in PvP, but it's actually a good thing because...reasons, I guess.

If there's no wall, then that's fine. But why are people here saying that there is a wall and that's the way they like it?

You're still ignoring the fact that any Mthor team is easily beatable by pretty much any 5* roster. So, what, exactly is the problem?

So you don't think it's a problem for everyone to be running the same team, even if they're weak on defense? You don't think it's a problem that every character but two is irrelevant, and that all new characters are instantly DOA?

People can run whoever they want. Amd, again, I'm not seeing this wall of Mthor so.... I also never said every new character is DOA. Quite the opposite. What I said is that every team is beatable by every other team. Which is the mark of a healthy system. I haven't had a boosted 5 in weeks (other than ascended 1s) but I'm still able to play. And when I do have the boosted 5s, I'm not immune to attacks. All of this is good. Again, I don't understand the complaints. With Chasm it was different. Smaller rosters, even with boosted 5s, couldn't fight hulkasm. And hulkasm teams could float forever at 900pts. That was ridiculous. Now, everyone in a tier can compete. What more do you want?

Also, stop saying everyone is running Mthor/SC. They aren't. I've literally never run that team. Some do, up to a certain number of points. Then you stop seeing them because they don't survive higher than 700 or 800 for very long.

I can't argue with all of you at once when you're all making completely different, contradictory points. Some people are saying nobody uses Thor at all, some people are saying everyone only uses her but they like it that way, and who knows what the others are even saying.

What do you people actually want? Do you want metagame diversity where a lot of characters matter and you fight different teams? Do you want PvP to just be endless mirror matches, as long as the One Good Team is bad on defense?

entrailbucket

Hey, here's one -- how did everyone feel about the Sentry nerf? He was only good on offense, but he let you win any match against any team in 10 seconds. Did you like the Sentry era? Should they have left him alone because he was bad on defense?

BriMan2222

@entrailbucket said:
Hey, here's one -- how did everyone feel about the Sentry nerf? He was only good on offense, but he let you win any match against any team in 10 seconds. Did you like the Sentry era? Should they have left him alone because he was bad on defense?

I'm not sure how many people on this post beside you remember that. I've been playing almost since day 1, but at the time that was the meta I probably had like 1 cover for Sentry.

entrailbucket

@BriMan2222 said:

@entrailbucket said:
Hey, here's one -- how did everyone feel about the Sentry nerf? He was only good on offense, but he let you win any match against any team in 10 seconds. Did you like the Sentry era? Should they have left him alone because he was bad on defense?

I'm not sure how many people on this post beside you remember that. I've been playing almost since day 1, but at the time that was the meta I probably had like 1 cover for Sentry.

This can't be true, are all of you guys really that new? I think I was doing like 4000 points per event by then, with 10-match, 2-minute hops. I think Bow was around?

Vhailorx

@entrailbucket said:
Hey, here's one -- how did everyone feel about the Sentry nerf? He was only good on offense, but he let you win any match against any team in 10 seconds. Did you like the Sentry era? Should they have left him alone because he was bad on defense?

Very hard to judge in retrospect because the game was so different then.

Should we still be able to bake cupcakes? I tend to think easy pvp climbing is good for players, but maybe it's only good for veteran players?

I was still below the endgame when sentry was nerfed and didn't have a strong opinion either way. I didn't love the xfw/Jane nerf 5 months later because it was so quickly followed by a shift to a 4* meta that probably would have made it less of a problem.

I don't mind cupcakes as a solution to the irritating PVP scoring system, but it was never great to have so much of the pvp endgame experience on Line instead of in game.