Champions 2.0 Post-launch FAQ and Discussion

Phumade

@SuperCarrot said:
I have given up trying to correctly farm because of this 2.0 mess and am only ascending 1 stars to two stars for the rewards currently. I can currently ascend 17 characters…but after doing a few on that first day…I’m just not into it and kind of wish I had not done them. Thinking I will wait to see who will be heavy hitters when ascended. Until that gets sorted out and the myriad of other problems…I’m just going to stick to what I know. Fortune favors the bold and all of that, so more power to the early adopters.

You really only ascend when you have 2 maxed out champions at that tier. You should always do the first ascension when you have 2 maxed champs. Thats the simplest continuation of reward trees.

Now with that said, there are definite pay to advance opportunities. When you buy those ascended 1* chars, it also means your immediately going to the 5* reward tree and you'll be taking advantage of your 1* reward stream with 5* champ rewards.

There are some oppturnities when you can do an early ascension Max-Min that speeds you faster to the next tier. But ultimately, your trading aways the later half of your reward tree for that speed.

There will always be characters worth early ascension, but at least 80% of the game's characters can be slow played with max-max ascensions.

I'm sure the forum will eventually settle on an optimal build path. but you'll never go wrong with the max-max path.

meadowsweet

@Phumade said:
you'll never go wrong with the max-max path.

I keep seeing statements like this, and I think it underestimates the number of extra roster slots you need in order to max-max every single character in the game.

At the rate that you earn 4★ covers (and the rate they release new characters), players could conceivably need 150+ ADDITIONAL roster slots while they work on maxing out duplicates of every single character. To max-max & Ascend you need 113 additional covers: that's 8.7 times longer than the time it takes to get the 13 covers for a max-min duo. And roster slots also jump in cost.

Even for 3★ characters, in order to max-max, each step requires that you have 2 roster slots per character 50% of the time and 3 roster slots 13% of the time while you collect the 852 covers necessary to Ascend them to 5★, Level 450. Whereas a max-min only needs 1 roster slot 75% of the time to Level 450.

True, once you Ascend to 5★ you free up those roster slots again, but for 3★ and 4★ characters that process could take years.

Now, if you're a day 3,000+ top player who already had 500 roster slots, max champs and duplicates for every character, and you play optimally every day, maybe all that sounds fine to you. But newer or more casual players with fewer roster slots won't always have that luxury.

SuperCarrot

@Phumade said:

@SuperCarrot said:
I have given up trying to correctly farm because of this 2.0 mess and am only ascending 1 stars to two stars for the rewards currently. I can currently ascend 17 characters…but after doing a few on that first day…I’m just not into it and kind of wish I had not done them. Thinking I will wait to see who will be heavy hitters when ascended. Until that gets sorted out and the myriad of other problems…I’m just going to stick to what I know. Fortune favors the bold and all of that, so more power to the early adopters.

You really only ascend when you have 2 maxed out champions at that tier. You should always do the first ascension when you have 2 maxed champs. Thats the simplest continuation of reward trees.

Now with that said, there are definite pay to advance opportunities. When you buy those ascended 1* chars, it also means your immediately going to the 5* reward tree and you'll be taking advantage of your 1* reward stream with 5* champ rewards.

There are some oppturnities when you can do an early ascension Max-Min that speeds you faster to the next tier. But ultimately, your trading aways the later half of your reward tree for that speed.

There will always be characters worth early ascension, but at least 80% of the game's characters can be slow played with max-max ascensions.

I'm sure the forum will eventually settle on an optimal build path. but you'll never go wrong with the max-max path.

I appreciate this response. I really do. I have read plenty and am firmly a 5 star baby champ player with 2 star and three star farms going, I have 36 5 stars champed. I just, well… don’t want to mess with it. I have too many 4 stars left to champ (only have 91 champed) and well…turning and burning for iso is my plan. The ascension just currently is not for me. I am saving maxed 3 star duplicates(meaning in this case I have 3 maxed) that might be interesting (like Thanos)…but otherwise I am out of it currently.

I would like to again say thank you for such a well thought out and meaningful response. It is very much appreciated and does not fall on deaf ears. Thank you, and many flowers for your response.

ThaRoadWarrior

Somebody go all in On Dr bong for science and see how many years it will take to get a pair of max champs to merge on a new release unfed 4*

KGB

@meadowsweet said:

@Phumade said:
you'll never go wrong with the max-max path.

I keep seeing statements like this, and I think it underestimates the number of extra roster slots you need in order to max-max every single character in the game.

At the rate that you earn 4★ covers (and the rate they release new characters), players could conceivably need 150+ ADDITIONAL roster slots while they work on maxing out duplicates of every single character. To max-max & Ascend you need 113 additional covers: that's 8.7 times longer than the time it takes to get the 13 covers for a max-min duo. And roster slots also jump in cost.

Even for 3★ characters, in order to max-max, each step requires that you have 2 roster slots per character 50% of the time and 3 roster slots 13% of the time while you collect the 852 covers necessary to Ascend them to 5★, Level 450. Whereas a max-min only needs 1 roster slot 75% of the time to Level 450.

True, once you Ascend to 5★ you free up those roster slots again, but for 3★ and 4★ characters that process could take years.

Now, if you're a day 3,000+ top player who already had 500 roster slots, max champs and duplicates for every character, and you play optimally every day, maybe all that sounds fine to you. But newer or more casual players with fewer roster slots won't always have that luxury.

I wouldn't worry about the 4* case at all. It will take YEARS to get a single max champed 4* which will make you a day 3000+ player which gets you to those 500+ roster slots you are talking about. In other words you won't be rostering 4* dups anytime soon.

For 99% of the player base, ascension will only happen for 1 and 2 star characters which are plentiful and have a fixed number of characters (ie no new releases). It's that final 1% that has to make decisions about duplicate 3 stars and probably .1% that has to make decisions about duplicate 4 stars.

You really don't have to try to ascend every last character in every tier.

KGB

ThaRoadWarrior

In my experience as an Eldritch F2P roster chasing low-champ everyone status, it takes about 9mths to a year to go from 0 to 370 on a 4* by committing to them as your only favorite, so you're probably looking at 2 years to double max a new release. Your mileage will vary of course based on current roster shape and who you are working on.

Bowgentle

Also depends A LOT on how many tokens you pull.
Those bonus shards add up.

ThaRoadWarrior

Yes, I've been pulling all my CP out of classic as i get them for a good while now, so I may or may not be earning shards faster than most. That being said, that anecdotal pull rate was before the activation of 1* characters, so honestly it could be a whole new ballgame now.

bbigler

Players will soon realize that max champing everything before ascending (max + max) will take forever. So I’m betting players will sacrifice 4* champ rewards to ascend their 4* sooner (for PVP).

The time frame to max 3-stars is reasonable though.

Scofie

@bbigler said:
Players will soon realize that max champing everything before ascending (max + max) will take forever. So I’m betting players will sacrifice 4* champ rewards to ascend their 4* sooner (for PVP).

The time frame to max 3-stars is reasonable though.

Depends where they are in the cycle for me, whether they're feeders and for whom. If I've a 271 Wasp, she's getting ascended.

entrailbucket

@bbigler said:
Players will soon realize that max champing everything before ascending (max + max) will take forever. So I’m betting players will sacrifice 4* champ rewards to ascend their 4* sooner (for PVP).

The time frame to max 3-stars is reasonable though.

I'm not sure we know yet. A lot of the higher-level players really, really care about maximizing efficiency with rewards, and I know there's a lot of math flying around saying to wait.

I suspect that many players will wait...until we get one of the ascended 4->5s boosted in PvP, and they start dominating over high level base 5*.

I didn't run 5* IW this week because I've got 672 Surfer/Phoenix, but my boosted IW (at lvl470ish pre boost) would have been VERY playable.

Phumade

@meadowsweet said:

@Phumade said:
you'll never go wrong with the max-max path.

I keep seeing statements like this, and I think it underestimates the number of extra roster slots you need in order to max-max every single character in the game.

At the rate that you earn 4★ covers (and the rate they release new characters), players could conceivably need 150+ ADDITIONAL roster slots while they work on maxing out duplicates of every single character. To max-max & Ascend you need 113 additional covers: that's 8.7 times longer than the time it takes to get the 13 covers for a max-min duo. And roster slots also jump in cost.

Even for 3★ characters, in order to max-max, each step requires that you have 2 roster slots per character 50% of the time and 3 roster slots 13% of the time while you collect the 852 covers necessary to Ascend them to 5★, Level 450. Whereas a max-min only needs 1 roster slot 75% of the time to Level 450.

True, once you Ascend to 5★ you free up those roster slots again, but for 3★ and 4★ characters that process could take years.

Now, if you're a day 3,000+ top player who already had 500 roster slots, max champs and duplicates for every character, and you play optimally every day, maybe all that sounds fine to you. But newer or more casual players with fewer roster slots won't always have that luxury.

I mean do you actually get that volume of covers that puts you in a daily need to rotate 4*? I doubt anyone beyond the biggest spenders/hoard breakers are going to be deluged with newly created maxed champs.

I personally have opened and applied every cover possible and its only barely budged the levels. I don't deny its a new additional ask on the players, but the time scale is measured in years not days.

WhiteBomber

Patience can be a very difficult battle, I will surely be ascending characters I enjoy playing before the rewards get close to max efficiency.

bbigler

Here’s a hypothetical:
Let’s say Karnak is boosted next week and you have a max champed Karnak plus a dupe at level 283. Let’s say Karnak is ascendable too. Wouldn’t you like to ascend him now and play him?..,just to see if he’s the wrecking ball you think he would be?

Now repeat this hypothetical with:
Polaris
Medusa
Carnage
Juggernaut
Grocket
etc…

entrailbucket

That entire list will be murderers, and will likely punch very very far above their level.

Listen, Invisible Woman does 100,000 damage on her green ability, and I don't have her anywhere close to maxed out. She has 5* health and match damage in the modern range.

Absolutely nobody thinks Invisible Woman is any good as a 4*, and she's definitely not on that list you've got, but I am telling you that ascended, at 470 + the boost, she's a viable PvP option for me -- a player with 22 550s who's fighting 550 Thor/etc.

If one of the mediocre 4* turns into a viable 550-killer at lvl470, what will everyone else look like?

bbigler

@entrailbucket said:
That entire list will be murderers, and will likely punch very very far above their level.

Listen, Invisible Woman does 100,000 damage on her green ability, and I don't have her anywhere close to maxed out. She has 5* health and match damage in the modern range.

Absolutely nobody thinks Invisible Woman is any good as a 4*, and she's definitely not on that list you've got, but I am telling you that ascended, at 470 + the boost, she's a viable PvP option for me -- a player with 22 550s who's fighting 550 Thor/etc.

If one of the mediocre 4* turns into a viable 550-killer at lvl470, what will everyone else look like?

Yes, you’re proving my point. Ascending 4-stars now may be better than waiting years to do it later for the extra rewards.

entrailbucket

@bbigler said:

@entrailbucket said:
That entire list will be murderers, and will likely punch very very far above their level.

Listen, Invisible Woman does 100,000 damage on her green ability, and I don't have her anywhere close to maxed out. She has 5* health and match damage in the modern range.

Absolutely nobody thinks Invisible Woman is any good as a 4*, and she's definitely not on that list you've got, but I am telling you that ascended, at 470 + the boost, she's a viable PvP option for me -- a player with 22 550s who's fighting 550 Thor/etc.

If one of the mediocre 4* turns into a viable 550-killer at lvl470, what will everyone else look like?

Yes, you’re proving my point. Ascending 4-stars now may be better than waiting years to do it later for the extra rewards.

Oh right, sorry! I was agreeing with you/expanding on what you were saying!

Phumade

@bbigler said:
Here’s a hypothetical:
Let’s say Karnak is boosted next week and you have a max champed Karnak plus a dupe at level 283. Let’s say Karnak is ascendable too. Wouldn’t you like to ascend him now and play him?..,just to see if he’s the wrecking ball you think he would be?

Now repeat this hypothetical with:
Polaris
Medusa
Carnage
Juggernaut
Grocket
etc…

Great question.

If I'm a small 5* roster with most 5* at 460 or below, then I immediately ascend Karnak to 450 and play him as part of my 5* toolkit.

If I'm a mid 5* roster with most 5* at 500 or below, with at least 5-10 5* over 475. I personal wait to grow that 283 to 370 and do the max max merge and play him with other 480 chars. but for sure, plenty of awesome chars that might be worth ascending early.

If I'm a big 5* roster with most 5* at 520-480, with at least 5-10 5* over 475, just let the dupe grow naturally. you've probably got better tools at this point and Karnak is purely for the rewards and random event.

None of these outcomes are wrong. There's nothing wrong with an early ascension of a max and min, you just need to really like that playstyle or justify some rationale to give up on the rest of the 4* reward tree.

Zooming out to the 100,000 foot level.

I could believe a case exists, where a player has purposely softcapped and has a full 4* farm. i.e. No 5*, 1 copy of all 4* at 370, 1 copy of 4* at 266-300. Full 3/2/1* farms etc.

Assuming this profile: Sure, you can absolutely make a game play case where you just immediately ascend Max-Min and just play as a 450 roster. But even here, I would say, early ascend your 10 best 4*. and then let the rest grow naturally to harvest the reward tree.

ThaRoadWarrior

I’ve been champ+1 my dupes at 3* and above for the LT, and just doing them as they become available. Yolo

I just haven’t decided how committed I am to rostering a backfill to make sure I can access any hypothetical targeted tier nodes in the future. So far I have maybe one or two of those.

entrailbucket

@Phumade said:

@bbigler said:
Here’s a hypothetical:
Let’s say Karnak is boosted next week and you have a max champed Karnak plus a dupe at level 283. Let’s say Karnak is ascendable too. Wouldn’t you like to ascend him now and play him?..,just to see if he’s the wrecking ball you think he would be?

Now repeat this hypothetical with:
Polaris
Medusa
Carnage
Juggernaut
Grocket
etc…

Great question.

If I'm a small 5* roster with most 5* at 460 or below, then I immediately ascend Karnak to 450 and play him as part of my 5* toolkit.

If I'm a mid 5* roster with most 5* at 500 or below, with at least 5-10 5* over 475. I personal wait to grow that 283 to 370 and do the max max merge and play him with other 480 chars. but for sure, plenty of awesome chars that might be worth ascending early.

If I'm a big 5* roster with most 5* at 520-480, with at least 5-10 5* over 475, just let the dupe grow naturally. you've probably got better tools at this point and Karnak is purely for the rewards and random event.

None of these outcomes are wrong. There's nothing wrong with an early ascension of a max and min, you just need to really like that playstyle or justify some rationale to give up on the rest of the 4* reward tree.

Zooming out to the 100,000 foot level.

I could believe a case exists, where a player has purposely softcapped and has a full 4* farm. i.e. No 5*, 1 copy of all 4* at 370, 1 copy of 4* at 266-300. Full 3/2/1* farms etc.

Assuming this profile: Sure, you can absolutely make a game play case where you just immediately ascend Max-Min and just play as a 450 roster. But even here, I would say, early ascend your 10 best 4*. and then let the rest grow naturally to harvest the reward tree.

I think you're making some big assumptions here, but I'll say this: during the week when Karnak is boosted, you literally cannot have a "better option" than a boosted, 550+ ascended Karnak.

The metagame is boosted characters now. Chasm is gone. If you don't have a 600+ character every single week, you're going to get stomped by somebody who does.