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  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    There are already (more) counters available against Chasm/iHulk. People on the nerf train can't adapt or refuse to adapt. It's on them, rather on the dev. :o

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    They could make a character with a passive that was literally "make one move: win the game" and people would argue that he wasn't overpowered and shouldn't be nerfed.

    "Don't nerf, give us a counter!"

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    The counter would be "if everyone is downed, revive with full health and win the match."

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    The counter would be to stop playing MPQ: out of sight, out of mind.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,656 Chairperson of the Boards

    I am very anti nerf especially for games similar to this. There are several reasons for this. I am very much in the counter camp.
    Hopefully the next dev QA will come around and we can get some answers on what their plans will be.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2023

    Just a note. Though it isn’t explicitly stated in the rules (though please refer to Rule 7), is inappropriate to notify the developers and community managers because they have a different philosophy of how the game should be run than your own. Clarification of announcements, have at it. Tagging people to complain about characters etc. amounts to harassment so please refrain from doing so.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    When happens all the next points:

    • all you can see after you pass a certain amount of points is that character and that team
    • new characters designed for defensive pvp born DOA because of that character
    • this character nerfs all the characters in game but no one nerfs him( SC, BRB, Colossus, SW,...)
    • generally players don't play pvp for points anymore because of him.

    And devs response is:

    • to rebalance and old character into downing revivers with an absurd expensive power
    • to release another character downing revivers
    • to say they know he is strong but they can't track the number of skips in-game and the issue is tracked into a very limited circle.

    Then I wonder what is the reason of an official forum if denouncing all this also means harassment and another rule broken.

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    I think the way they handle balance changes has given the idea of balance changes a (deserved) bad reputation. I understand why they do things like this, but I don't think it's ideal.

    Ideally, you'd make frequent, small updates up or down, then monitor metrics to see whether you're "done" or you need to adjust more. You could change the threshold for Chasm's resurrection by 1 void tile, or adjust the amount of healing he gets by 10%, etc, then monitor and fine tune from there. There's no reason that balance changes have to be this huge swing up or down.

    The reason they don't do this is probably that they don't have the time/resources, and also we don't really matter. High level players' experience is (justifiably) low on their list of concerns, and it's easier to just smash a guy down now to make sure you don't have to revisit him later. It's annoying for us but it's completely understandable.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,656 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad:
    Then I wonder what is the reason of an official forum if denouncing all this also means harassment and another rule broken.

    Agreed he should have just removed the offending portion and referenced the forum rules.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2023

    What's the point of releasing counters when the only counter certain camp of players want is either nerf, something that turn Chasm/iHulk DOA immediately, or a counter that gives them an instant win automatically without thinking? Strategy requires thinking.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,656 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2023

    It should be a rock paper scissors feels. Giving multiple heroes a chance for wins. Obviously not all, but there should be a pair or crew that you can win with in pick 2

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    Nobody actually wants rock/paper/scissors. Rock/paper/scissors means that if Chasm is rock, some team will be paper, and Chasm won't be able to beat that team.

    All of the theoretical "Chasm counters" that exist right now can potentially beat him when skillfully piloted by a player, but trivially get stomped by him when they're played by the AI. Those are not counters.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    MThor/Riri can do it. I even took down 672 Chasm with my baby champed boosted mThor/Riri.

  • Sekilicious
    Sekilicious Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2023

    @dianetics said:

    @Bad:
    Then I wonder what is the reason of an official forum if denouncing all this also means harassment and another rule broken.

    Agreed he should have just removed the offending portion and referenced the forum rules.

    The rule wasn’t broken imo, but was skirting towards the line and was calling for people to cross it. As for @Bad comments, by all means come post your disapproval of Chasm however often you like. You don’t have to tag people to do it. I modified my original post to clarify that position.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2023

    So, the definition of a counter is an AI controlled counter team that can win against player controlled Chasm/iHulk all the time or 99% of the time? If the AI controlled counter team can't do it, then it's not a counter. Is that right?

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:
    So, the definition of a counter is an AI controlled counter team that can win against player controlled Chasm/iHulk all the time or 99% of the time? If the AI controlled counter team can't do it, then it's not a counter. Is that right?

    If you want a rock/paper/scissors metagame, this is what you're asking for. Otherwise you could just throw rock every time and win every time.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    The AI in MPQ is pretty dumb. A counter team controlled by AI that can beat Chasm/iHulk all the time looks broken. :o

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,992 Chairperson of the Boards

    That would very much depend on the nature of the counter. If it's a narrow enough counter, that team wouldn't be overpowered at all. I gave two suggestions earlier -- a character with a passive that disables resurrection or a character who passively converts all void tiles to basic tiles each turn.

  • dianetics
    dianetics Posts: 1,656 Chairperson of the Boards

    We had Wanda electro before that would crush hulkoye. But they were easily killed by other teams.

    Having multiple strong teams that can be countered easily by other teams will bring variety. This would hopefully make a healthier high level game.

    Nobody wants to see the same pair over and over. There should be variety, and you should never see 100% win defense or no defenses at all.

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