***** Chasm (Ben Reilly) *****

HoundofShadow

Some thoughts about Chasm:
1) Weakness: stun.
2) He counters SC in a way by stopping his winfinite via stunning if and only if SC didn't down him last.
3) He's all about tick damage, depending on how his match damage is calculated. For example, his first black match-3 will deal either 11, 319 or 8085 damage. Then, at the end of the turn, he deals 3380 or 4448. So, he deals a total of ~11k or ~15k damage.
4) His green passive affects his black passive and vice versa. His black also affects his purple passive. Green will affect purple only if Chasm is downed. Build wise: 5/3/5 and 4/4/5 is worth a try.

Carbage and Killmonger looks good on him because:

Chasm is going to tank all colours except red, which means he's going to be downed faster. 

Carbage helps you to
1) gain extra aps via extra non-Abyss matches. When Carbage's extra passive match triggers, it's based on whichever character has the highest match damage in that colour. This means more Abyss tiles per turn for Chasm since he tanks 6/7 matches. 
2) buffs his damage with strike tiles

Killmonger helps to
1) generate red ap in opponent's crit match 
2) increases certain match damage by 150%. (Need to verify if the game adds in 150% on top of Chasm 250%)

The potential weakness is excessive blue and yellow aps. However, since Abyss tiles deny ap gains, it might mitigate that a little. This brings me to second and third team for a rainbow coverage.

Chasm + 5* JF or 5* KK + Carbage.

Bad

Ben reilly finally. I'd say former devs would had released venom for spider anniversary because is more popular.
And after the numbers and the words are cleared, he is a really complex character. 
Because he uses his special tiles and also webs for different things. 
Usually you want him to always be tanking because if he don't creates his special tiles he will die.
Colossus would help to save a lot of damage that chasm will auto deal but I don't think it's a good sinergy because at black at 5 colossus never will fire his black nor he will be in front to the extra damage, as many turns the abyss tiles will destroy 3 blacks.
Purple at 4 will help chasm to revive at more health if there are the 3 abyss and a lot of webs. Because this character will die a few times in a long battle because of him. That will destroy all the abyss tiles and he needs to continue matching and create them for not dying. But that process will be slower if the 2 teams gain AP and his match damage is reduced, like Adam. So 5/4/4 could be a good set imo.
Obviously SC is discarded because the sinergy will be 0.
SW will help him to create more black and also to shield him on enemy turn as she will add a mark on her repeater for the enemy turn. 
The number on critical match not changing imo is a typo.
And it's needed to see him in play as there are many factors involved but I think he will be fun and fast.

Ormisdas

This character is the perfect defensive anti-meta. Not only removes the "first move" advantage of the attacking team, he just can stop most of the aggressive duos currently used in the PVP:

*Stops Shang Chi/Valkirye-MelindaMae teams, almost removing the AP bonus that SC needs to be quick and reliable
*Kills every couple with RG or BRB in it, avoiding their first-step positioning. So, Polaris and Kitty are shut down too!
*reduces the reliability of other combos as America Chavez+Colossus+Boost, because they start with a turn behind the enemy, and with an additional AP removal

I think we will see him a lot in PVP defensive teams, and I hope to see a certain BPanther revival (wishful thinking). 

bahamut685

Definitely look forward to seeing him in action.
Looks like he's got def. potential, despite the 2.0 crit multiplier... But we'll have to see how he plays, in practice, as opposed to theory.

MoosePrime

HoundofShadow said:

Questions

1) First of all, what are Abyss tiles? Are they a new tile type categorised under special tiles (SAP, repeaters etc), which would be susceptible to abilities like 3* Hawkeye or Mantis, or are they like Silver Surfer's Black Hole or Dr Ock's tentacles, which is categorised under character tiles, which would not be affected by Mantis' or Hawkeye's passives?

Also:

  Will Morbius remove them?

  Are they team specific or shared?

GrimSkald

MoosePrime said:

HoundofShadow said:

Questions

1) First of all, what are Abyss tiles? Are they a new tile type categorised under special tiles (SAP, repeaters etc), which would be susceptible to abilities like 3* Hawkeye or Mantis, or are they like Silver Surfer's Black Hole or Dr Ock's tentacles, which is categorised under character tiles, which would not be affected by Mantis' or Hawkeye's passives?

Also:

  Will Morbius remove them?

  Are they team specific or shared?

I'm just guessing here, I'm not a dev, but the wording of the power seems to imply that an Abyss tile would be considered a Neutral (i.e. not belonging to either player,) special tile.  So it would not be affected by Morbius, Hawkeye, or Mantis.  It would be affected by the new Thor (who just affects "special tiles,") and any other character who doesn't look at "ownership."

So yeah, it's more like a web tile than a protect tile.

Vhailorx

Seeing his numbers, I definitely think he will be a pest to fight, but i don't know that he will be meta.

He will heal pretty well if paired with a web tile generator, but I don't think he will be able to keep himself topped up to well on his own (since he must make abyss tiles that hurt him to generate webs that will heal him).

He basically needs to tank to work, so I don't know that he will play mice with SC or colossus. And in any event he will tank less as a match goes on and hisatxh damage goes down.

His revive requires 3 abyss tiles (at least two matches to generate them).  That should happen pretty regularly, and accidentally procuring his res will result in a team stun, so it will be annoying. That said, it shouldn't be too daunting to defeat this ability using board control powers to make sure he will stay down before attacking him.

His match damage power is hard to judge.  As shown by colossus, big match damage is very powerful, and chasm will be even stronger to start the match. I just don't know how long that will last in practice.  If you start with a good board and get some cascades, will be be at 90% match damage on round 2?  I think if I am wrong in my assessment of him, it will be because this works better than it appears on paper.

Overall I think he will be pvp focused, will be terrifying when boosted, and will be a solid 3rd in shield sim. I don't know that he will reliably do enough damage fast enough to be a pick2 staple, even if his passive is super attractive to counter the "start of battle" passive meta.

Vhailorx

Ormisdas said:

This character is the perfect defensive anti-meta. Not only removes the "first move" advantage of the attacking team, he just can stop most of the aggressive duos currently used in the PVP:

*Stops Shang Chi/Valkirye-MelindaMae teams, almost removing the AP bonus that SC needs to be quick and reliable
*Kills every couple with RG or BRB in it, avoiding their first-step positioning. So, Polaris and Kitty are shut down too!
*reduces the reliability of other combos as America Chavez+Colossus+Boost, because they start with a turn behind the enemy, and with an additional AP removal

I think we will see him a lot in PVP defensive teams, and I hope to see a certain BPanther revival (wishful thinking). 

How does chasm "stop" SC/Valk?  Seems like at best he slows them down by 1 round.  That's very useful, but SC can still pump out absurd amounts of damage in just a few rounds with a little board luck.

Ormisdas

Vhailorx said:

Ormisdas said:

This character is the perfect defensive anti-meta. Not only removes the "first move" advantage of the attacking team, he just can stop most of the aggressive duos currently used in the PVP:

*Stops Shang Chi/Valkirye-MelindaMae teams, almost removing the AP bonus that SC needs to be quick and reliable
*Kills every couple with RG or BRB in it, avoiding their first-step positioning. So, Polaris and Kitty are shut down too!
*reduces the reliability of other combos as America Chavez+Colossus+Boost, because they start with a turn behind the enemy, and with an additional AP removal

I think we will see him a lot in PVP defensive teams, and I hope to see a certain BPanther revival (wishful thinking). 

How does chasm "stop" SC/Valk?  Seems like at best he slows them down by 1 round.  That's very useful, but SC can still pump out absurd amounts of damage in just a few rounds with a little board luck.

Now:
1st turn, SC makes a red match, gets 3+4 red AP
Enemy team hits
2nd turn, SC starts doing his thing

Against Chasm:
1st turn, SC team is stunned.
Chasm hits, create 2 abyss
2nd turn, SC matches red, gets 3+4 red AP
Chasm hits, create 2 abyss, remove 3 red AP from SC
3rd turn, SC matches red, gets  (4)+3+4=11
Chasm hits, more abyss, removes 3 red AP
4th turn, SC starts doing his thing

SC is not a tank, nor his usual partners. He (or Valky) must survive 2 turns more than in the non-Chasm scenario, must match red two consecutive (the "consecutive" is relevant) times instead of match red once...
If SC starts requiring board luck, for me he has lost a lot of his reliability. Until now, SC could break any defensive team excepting mythic-rare board states or unending enemy cascades on turn 1. This is going to change with Chasm... perhaps  

KGB

Vhailorx said:

Ormisdas said:

This character is the perfect defensive anti-meta. Not only removes the "first move" advantage of the attacking team, he just can stop most of the aggressive duos currently used in the PVP:

*Stops Shang Chi/Valkirye-MelindaMae teams, almost removing the AP bonus that SC needs to be quick and reliable
*Kills every couple with RG or BRB in it, avoiding their first-step positioning. So, Polaris and Kitty are shut down too!
*reduces the reliability of other combos as America Chavez+Colossus+Boost, because they start with a turn behind the enemy, and with an additional AP removal

I think we will see him a lot in PVP defensive teams, and I hope to see a certain BPanther revival (wishful thinking). 

How does chasm "stop" SC/Valk?  Seems like at best he slows them down by 1 round.  That's very useful, but SC can still pump out absurd amounts of damage in just a few rounds with a little board luck.

Presumably SC will be in front (he clearly tanks over Valk) and when he is, he will lose 3 Red per turn from the AP drain.  Eventually thanks to Valk's CD you'll gain Red AP faster than it's drained but it will take longer than normal and make the winfinte harder to achieve.

KGB

jsmjsmjsm00

Shang Chi matching abyss tiles won't  generate AP to begin with. That's another important point. 

Vhailorx

Ormisdas said:

Vhailorx said:

Ormisdas said:

This character is the perfect defensive anti-meta. Not only removes the "first move" advantage of the attacking team, he just can stop most of the aggressive duos currently used in the PVP:

*Stops Shang Chi/Valkirye-MelindaMae teams, almost removing the AP bonus that SC needs to be quick and reliable
*Kills every couple with RG or BRB in it, avoiding their first-step positioning. So, Polaris and Kitty are shut down too!
*reduces the reliability of other combos as America Chavez+Colossus+Boost, because they start with a turn behind the enemy, and with an additional AP removal

I think we will see him a lot in PVP defensive teams, and I hope to see a certain BPanther revival (wishful thinking). 

How does chasm "stop" SC/Valk?  Seems like at best he slows them down by 1 round.  That's very useful, but SC can still pump out absurd amounts of damage in just a few rounds with a little board luck.

Now:
1st turn, SC makes a red match, gets 3+4 red AP
Enemy team hits
2nd turn, SC starts doing his thing

Against Chasm:
1st turn, SC team is stunned.
Chasm hits, create 2 abyss
2nd turn, SC matches red, gets 3+4 red AP
Chasm hits, create 2 abyss, remove 3 red AP from SC
3rd turn, SC matches red, gets  (4)+3+4=11
Chasm hits, more abyss, removes 3 red AP
4th turn, SC starts doing his thing

SC is not a tank, nor his usual partners. He (or Valky) must survive 2 turns more than in the non-Chasm scenario, must match red two consecutive (the "consecutive" is relevant) times instead of match red once...
If SC starts requiring board luck, for me he has lost a lot of his reliability. Until now, SC could break any defensive team excepting mythic-rare board states or unending enemy cascades on turn 1. This is going to change with Chasm... perhaps  

I think this is a best case scenario.  Chasm makes 2 abyss tiles per match.  And they only proc ap destruction when they themselves are matched (and then only destroy 3 ap if there are 3 abyss tiles on the board), so a lot of things have to happen for this cycle to totally shut down SC.

Chasm will allow down SC a bit (he will show everyone down), but I don't think SC will be unusable against him. I definitely see chasm as a good start-of-match options. He dominates there with massive match damage, ap destruction, and a first round stun. But if his utility falls off a cliff after round 3 or 4 then I don't think he will be a sustainable meta, fast start or not.

Bad

Some factors here:
- Valkirye will give red to SC when he has built a combo and starting hitting hard.
-SC needs all the AP possible for to bypass a non favorable board: losing 3AP is a great loss for him. 
- SC has low health: he needs to start his winfinite soon and gaining combo points for to restore more health.
- SC can lose a good move if he can't charge a red or purple tile: special tiles or webs will be a great hindrance. 
- if SC has all the team stunned possibly will lose all his combo.

Yoik

What would the the eta that Chasm appears within the packs latest ledge? I wanted to pull for thor but i may wait for chasm to get in there now too

tonypq

Am I the only one who feels some of us are over rating Chasm a bit ?

He seems interesting as any other near the top of mid range 5s sure, but I'm not sure how crazy for him I am. The all passive is kind of cool I guess even if there's some wonky tug of war mechanics involved. I wouldn't necessarily miss having actives as long as the passives and overall kit synergy seem to work good enough together. 

Bowgentle

Yoik said:

What would the the eta that Chasm appears within the packs latest ledge? I wanted to pull for thor but i may wait for chasm to get in there now too

Start of next season.
So 4 weeks from tomorrow.

jsmjsmjsm00

Wording implies AP destruction happens at end of turn regardless of whether Abyss tiles are matched. FYI. 

Matching the tiles just denies AP and creates web tiles. 

LavaManLee

tonypq said:

Am I the only one who feels some of us are over rating Chasm a bit ?

He seems interesting as any other near the top of mid range 5s sure, but I'm not sure how crazy for him I am. The all passive is kind of cool I guess even if there's some wonky tug of war mechanics involved. I wouldn't necessarily miss having actives as long as the passives and overall kit synergy seem to work good enough together. 

I think it depends on your definition of "over rating".  His kit in and of itself is fine.  But where he will shine, at least for me, is three fold: PVE Mindless Ones (just taking care of them is reason to get him), PVP Col/Wanda and a must have for PVP overall.  By PVP overall, I mean that he will be run a lot (I think) in PVP and the best way to deal with him is to bring your own.

Are people overrating him?  Perhaps.  It will be very interesting to see what happens over the next month or so.

MoosePrime

jsmjsmjsm00 said:

Wording implies AP destruction happens at end of turn regardless of whether Abyss tiles are matched. FYI. 

Matching the tiles just denies damage and AP, and created web tiles. 

Do Abyss tiles not do damage?  I'm not seeing that in the power descriptions.

HoundofShadow

Matching Abyss tiles denies ap, but not match damage. It's cool though. 

How can we keep Chasm's aps as low as possible?

How can we create Abyss tiles more quickly?