***** Elektra (Woman Without Fear) *****

HoundofShadow

Acquiring and champing 5* is different from talking about character's abilities. You don't have to be a 5* player to talk about 5* abilities. You can be a 3* player and also talk about how their ability can be useful at 3* tier.

I don't think @ThaRoadWarrior can be considered as casual player, given that he goes for full progression, if I didn't remember wrongly.

Everything started from my comparing Elektra's red to Apocalypse's red. Not everyone in the forum care about only meta. There are players who also care about playing interesting and fun mechanics. Again, such adjectives are subjective.

Anyway, the general consensus is that her red is bad or not good because 1) it's delayed damage 2) it's a 2-turn cd 3) it's not fortified. 4) expensive

My counter is that her red deal 23xx damage per ap, which is comparable to Apocalypse's red. When compared with other characters' red powers, like Ghostpool, her damage per ap is better.

The thing is based on past unpopular powers, I can summarise that a lot of dislikes from these unpopular power stems from two main causes: 1) lack of patience 2) low tolerance for risk.

The lack of patience stems from the fact some have serious dislikes against cd or repeater that is more than 1-turn. If it's unfortified, the dislike intensifies. Almost all cd/repeater based damage that are more than 1-turn are considered slow. For example, Kingpin, Loki and Captain Marvel, Magneto and Elektra. 

The low tolerance of risk is even more obvious. Almost every cd or repeater got to be fortified because they will get matched away quickly. It's as the players play like the AI and will match her cd away immediately. I'm sure many would be smart enough to fire her power when the best situation arises, right? 

The typical feedbacks to such powers can be categorised as: 

1) make it 1-turn cd or repeater and fortify it or change it to a direct damage power instead.
2) make the repeater fire at least once when that power is fired.

If every power starts to have such qualities as the bare minimum, power creep will happen even faster and the game will become really stale. i thought a lot of you like to talk about power creep and dislike power creep.

ThaRoadWarrior

CDs have been a liability for a long time if they are singular; Kitty pretty much made them obsolete at the 5* tier, even if fortified unless you can spam them. There are powers that do things on fire, and those are good - Ghostpool's power does everything it does on fire, the CD is a secondary effect you can chase or avoid. 

I wouldn't self-identify as casual, I grind an excessive amount. I just don't get caught up in aggressive competition outside of hitting full progression. I was meaning that casuals don't care about/have access to finished 5*s, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't evaluate finished 5*s against their tier-mates because those of us who are having this debate are, in fact, likely to get her champed. 

HoundofShadow

If I see Kitty as my opponent and I want to fire Elektra's red or other cd based power, I'll 1) stun her 2) down her 3) spam the board with special tiles 4) use someone who can remove special tiles. It takes Kitty's Circuit Breaker two turns to remove the first SAP or CD tile.

In the context of Elektra's red against Kitty, I don't think she has the opportunity to override her cd with Circuit Breaker, or I don't think she can even activate Circuit Breaker in the first place, if you choose to stun Kitty. 

20k damage in today's context is about ~27% of an average 5* health. The difference between firing now and it going off later is how risk averse players are. If the average health of 5* are 20k, I'll definitely question the point of delaying her cd for 2-turns when other characters can one-shot the other opponents immediately. 

I think the game has a good mix of direct damage and "high risk" based powers, that caters to one of the many criteria/preferences of players. It just so happens that Elektra's red power is a 2-turn cd that kind of doesn't fit your and other players' cup of tea. If Elektra's red deals damage directly, I think most would be fine with that. And I don't consider 9 ap cost expensive, given the amount of damage she deals. 

As for her purple, I don't think one would want to build around it too much unless you are dealing with SAP spammers like Polaris.

ThaRoadWarrior

The risk is that the other team is also doing things, and if they are a direct damage, low AP cost or even passive team, then 3 turns to fire, 2 turns to do something is not a good power. It just isn't. Characters we all agree are good exist, and you'll be facing them, and if this is your only option, you'll wish that you had a better more reliable tool in your box to deal with it I'm sure.

But while we're talking about CDs doing ~20k damage, Ronan does that passively

Vhailorx

ThaRoadWarrior said:

The risk is that the other team is also doing things, and if they are a direct damage, low AP cost or even passive team, then 3 turns to fire, 2 turns to do something is not a good power. It just isn't. Characters we all agree are good exist, and you'll be facing them, and if this is your only option, you'll wish that you had a better more reliable tool in your box to deal with it I'm sure.

But while we're talking about CDs doing ~20k damage, Ronan does that passively

There is also a big opportunity cost.  9 ap spent on elektra's red is 9ap *not* spent on another ability (e.g., Apoc or thor or SC's red).  And as entrailbucket noted earlier, a high risk proposition only makes sense if the reward is large enough to offset the risk. and .27 of a newer 5* health bar is not especially high reward.

I'm sure it feels like we are all ganging up on poor elektra here, but it's not really about her; she is just the current exemplar. her powers are meh. Yellow is the most intriguing and might play up a bit once we can test it. (we don't really have anything like it in the game except 3/4* elektra's black and that comparison is flawed because she needed to tank to proc those traps, which is a non-starter in the day of 5*s.) But she is unlikely to be relevant in top tier competitive play.

that doesn't mean she isn't fun to use, or a favorite for some players or anything like that. it just means she doesn't look like she will be in the meta, or even meta adjacent.

entrailbucket

I don't even think anybody's ganging up on Elektra.  She's fine.  She's obviously not as good as the "good" characters.  That puts her in like with like 95% of the characters -- it's not some kind of grievous insult.

If someone thinks she's better than Apocalypse, feel free to make that case (you're wrong!).  If you think saying she's worse than Apocalypse is a terrible insult made by bad people who hate the developers and want to purposely ruin the game, that's indicative of some real weird bias on your side.

Bad

The red is super meh no matter how you see it. Ghostpool red is a lot better. Elektra deals a bit more damage than ghostpool?
If the cd is destroyed it won't never deal more damage than ghostpool. 
Also this red forces to put it on 5 for stun for 2 turns: ghostpool on 4 is already stunning for 2 turns, at 5 it only increases the damage. And also it can re- stun if matched or destroyed without limits, and it's 8 AP: that is a good power.
For the things elektra red is doing, 9 AP is too much.

ThaRoadWarrior

Comparing only the damage/AP is a misleading quantitative analysis, you have to do a qualitative analysis that factors in other things like ease of use, repeatability, likelihood it does anything at all, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that a numbers only approach is why we get powers that aren’t used much.

entrailbucket

It's risk/reward.  You have to adjust the damage output by the risk that you won't get any damage.

One thing they seem to have stopped doing (that I applaud them for) is making powers where the floor is "do nothing at all."  Something like "12AP: create a 3-turn CD that does X damage."

Almost every modern power either does something else when you cast it, fortifies the CD, or does something while the tile is on the board.

jp1

I don’t even care if she is mediocre, which isn’t so clear cut IMHO, I’m happy to have another A-List toon for a 5* release. 

bbigler

Can we please stop comparing every character to Apocalypse?  He’s good but he’s not super awesome amazing and outranks everyone else. He’s super easy on PVP defense and needs 21 AP (and waiting for his protects to be made) before firing his chain of attacks (which do major damage).  He’s slow and needs an AP battery like Thor.  If you use him just for his yellow damage increasing power, then he’s just like Okoye, and essentially a 1 trick pony.

In comparison to the other top 10 metas: 

Shang is much faster and hits harder than Apocalypse.  Matches end in 3 - 5 turns, and Shang is usually back to full health.  How many characters can do that? Protect tiles don’t stop 50K - 250K critical hits.  Even Colossus will fall against him.  

IHulk starts working right away dealing AOEs with board shake.  If you don’t have Electro, he’s a PVP deterrent (and downing him first doesn’t work).  He’s also a king in PVE clearing.  

Wanda works right away hitting back and protecting against cascades (a general PVP deterrent). Plus, she can also increase damage from powers.

Kitty works right away buffing specials, and if used on strikes, it also acts like a damage increaser, but increases match damage as well.  Then she has the passive to remove enemy specials that aren’t repeaters, then blow up afterwards. 

BRB works immediately placing protects, which can also fuel his powers to place more protects and do some good hits. He’s self fueling like Shang.  

Okoye is similar to Apocalypse except that her damage increase is not limited and can work immediately.  She can true heal but lacks a good hitting power herself, which means she’s a support character.  

Colossus is also a 1 trick pony and only useful for PVP defense (and possibly SCL 10 challenge nodes).  

Even Prof X and Onslaught work right away dealing damage and gaining AP.  So could we please stop the love affair with Apoc?

ThaRoadWarrior

Looks like the passive never steals more than one; 5/5/3 still feels like the build. Love the cover.

she might be fun with Kitty against special makers if you can proc the steal before circuit breaker.

entrailbucket

I don't think it's about Apocalypse specifically, I think he's generally just used as convenient shorthand for "a good character."  At least that's how I use him.


The math is a bit off there though... anyone using him at the upper levels is full boosting (+4 red/yellow), using Thor, or doing both.  7ap powers are a LOT better than 9ap because you can start one match-3 away 

ThaRoadWarrior

Cheap powers don’t show well in the AI’s hands because a player can spam them and the ai cannot. An offensive apocalypse with Thor is preeeettty good.

Vhailorx

entrailbucket said:

It's risk/reward.  You have to adjust the damage output by the risk that you won't get any damage.

One thing they seem to have stopped doing (that I applaud them for) is making powers where the floor is "do nothing at all."  Something like "12AP: create a 3-turn CD that does X damage."

Almost every modern power either does something else when you cast it, fortifies the CD, or does something while the tile is on the board.

This is a good point. IMO the best design philosophy for CD/repeater abilities is to have multiple possible outcomes that do different things, rather than 1 good and 1 bad outcome. So for a CD that's "Do X if the CD' resolves/is on the board, and Do Y if the tiles is matched or destroyed. One example would be DD's green.  That's a well designed power. The player may want it to do different things depend on the circumstances, but it rarely ever feels like a complete waste to cast.

Re: apocalypse. I agree that he is not the best meta character. But he is sort of the meta gatekeeper in that he defines the bottom of a meta for damage boosting and nukes. There are better boosters and better nukers, but no one who does both as well as him. Plus he is immune to stun, offers some defense, and has a large health pool. He is a rare character who is good because of his three actives and doesn't need a passive trick (though his passive trick actually quite good too).

And 7ap powers are way better than 9ap powers. Even if you don't max boost it is still much more likely thay you will pick up 1 ap from a match 4 or have one left over from casting another power than it is to find a 3rd whole match3 (especially when both teams are chasing the same color). Nor do you need to worry as much about losing out on ap when matching crit tiles.

bbigler

entrailbucket said:

I don't think it's about Apocalypse specifically, I think he's generally just used as convenient shorthand for "a good character."  At least that's how I use him.


The math is a bit off there though... anyone using him at the upper levels is full boosting (+4 red/yellow), using Thor, or doing both.  7ap powers are a LOT better than 9ap because you can start one match-3 away 

That’s my point, Apocalypse is slow without boosts and Thor.  Let’s say you fire his yellow on turn 2.  His red can hit right away with the boosted damage, but his black needs to wait 2 more turns for the protects to come out.  

If you full AP boost Shang, then he could go winfinite on the 2nd turn and end the match.  And he doesn’t need Thor to help him.  With Valkyrie, Shang can go off on the 2nd turn without boosts.  Nevertheless, Shang requires more thinking and is more board dependent.  

As for Elektra, I think her Red is good, solid, 3 out of 5 stars.  If her partner has a better red power, then use theirs, otherwise it’s useful.  

HoundofShadow

Ronan's cd has some drawback that reduces his match damage and it targets random opponent, and his red is conditional for extra damage.  But I still like him a lot, for his blue power.

Actually, my point about 20k damage being ~27% of average 5* hp is to point out that there's not a lot of difference between dealing damage now and dealing damage 2-turn later since the opponent won't be downed anyway. It's not like you can finish every match on the 5th turn, unless you are using iHulkoye. If the average 5* hp is 20k, then it makes sense to consider why putting a 2-turn cd that deals 20k damage later is bad or not good.

I think we have different risk tolerance level and the risk tolerance level for some of you seem low. She creates a red cd which you can calculate the probability of getting matched within 2 seconds in the next 2 turn before you fire it. The risk is virtually non-existent. On the other hand, i I understand that some prefer guaranteed direct damage over such powers. 

I don't think I ever say she'll be meta. I already guessed that she won't be considered favourably because she has already failed the meta test for all her powers.  Given that ~85% of the new 5*  released won't be meta, I wonder why every 5* has to be compared with meta. It's like always comparing some average person's wealth with Elon Musk's when that person is not Jeff Bezos.

And I'm surprised that 8ap is not considered expensive and 9 is expensive. Do some really min-max ap usage/gain as well? I end up with excess aps most of the time at the end of each match. What's the standard for cheap power nowadays? 8 or even fewer? Also, how many of you can guarantee match-4 every time by your second turn without using specific characters' abilities, seeing how match-4 is brought up when comparing ap cost.

A cd with multiple outcome is likely to be bad, based on past powers and dev's philosophy. I remember the dislike for powers with multiple out incomes because it'll be weak. Even in real life, multi-tasking is not as productive as single tasking.

entrailbucket

What is this utter nonsense about 85% of characters won't be any good?  What rule says that?  In the game, how do they indicate which characters are meant to be good and which are meant to be bad?  Does Elektra have a big "BAD" stamp on her cover and Okoye has a "GOOD" one? 

We compare 5* characters to other 5* characters because they have the same number of stars.

HoundofShadow

I said meta, not good. I have statistics to back me up. 

Edit: you always compare 5* with meta and always use finishing matches in <2min to determine usability of 5*. Did you have a change of mind suddenly? 

Meta 5* Release for 2018

May - Okoye (Warrior General)

Sep - Kitty Pryde (Uncanny X-Men)

Meta 5* Release for 2019

15 Aug - Professor X (Classic)

5 Dec - Beta Ray Bill (Korbinite Cyborg)

Meta 5* Release for 2020

26 Mar - The Hulk (Immortal)

7 May - Apocalypse (Classic)

Meta 5* Release for 2021

11 Mar - Colossus (Phoenix Force)

8 Apr - Scarlet Witch (WandaVision)

The % for 2018 and 2019 is much higher because the release back then was 4/4/5/4 instead of 4/5/4/5, but it still doesn't change the fact that only 2 metas are released.

On top of that, the dev has been  living this philosophy since the game existed.

Q: At the top of the leaderboards, Versus is geared towards playing fast (to avoid being hit while unshielded) rather than playing creatively with diverse rosters. The 'fastest' teams dominate. Are you comfortable with this element of the game?

A: Yes and no: In any multiplayer game, high-end competition is going to be a somewhat different game than what most people are playing. There are fewer viable strategies and they’re typically a little less expressive and creative. We’re comfortable with the fact that some of the characters we release won’t find a role in that environment and are just there to be fun and interesting for folks that are less focused on being at the top. We do want the top of the leaderboards to be an interesting place to be, and intend to continue shaking things up with new characters and balance changes when we see a single team composition dominating. But speed will probably always be more important at the top than it is for most players.

entrailbucket

Ok, where's Shang-Chi on that list?  Where's Onslaught?  Where's Adam Warlock?  Is the rule 2 good characters per calendar year?  Or a rolling year?  Or their fiscal year?



Your completely made up "schedule" has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of characters released or the intentions of the dev team, and everything to do with the fact that the hoarders earn enough resources to max out exactly 2 characters per year.