***** Elektra (Woman Without Fear) *****

Vhailorx

HoundofShadow said:

Unless you are using boost, all their powers require 3 match-3. Besides, we are comparing just the red power.

If we want to add in Apocalypse's yellow boost, then we need to throw in Elektra's yellow to even out the field.

450 Apocalypse's red will deal 12886 x 4 or 51, 544 damage. So, the first 3 hit of Apocalypse's red will be reduced by 50%. So, we have (6443 * 3) + 12886 = 32, 215 damage. So, his damage per ap will be 32315/14 = 2301.07

Elektra, on the other hand, would have dealt a total of 20851 + (8688*3) = 46915 damage. Her damage per ap would be 3127.66.

As you can see, Elektra's damage per ap on a level playing field is even better than Apocalypse and his boost. 

What can be seen is that they have different roles. Apocalypse is an all out offense character, whereas Elektra is a tactical/defensive character. In 1 v 1, Elektra can be better than Apocalypse.

This is a pretty poor comparison. You are ignoring a lot of variables that have a huge effect on the value of the powers (e.g., Elektra takes 2 turns to resolve and only does damage of the CD survives, and you are assuming that all 3 trap tiles are up when apoc's red is cast).  Plus you also ignore that apoc's damage boost can apply multiple times once cast, so it's value will go up as matches progress.

This is like claiming  5* Doc Oc's green is the most efficient power because it could do infinite damage for "just" 18ap.  Technically true if you ignore all the steps required to achieve that outcome.

entrailbucket

bbigler said:

entrailbucket said:

Except it's not at all difficult to compare characters from different categories.  There are at least two quite popular threads in the characters forum that rank all of the characters in order. 

Are you saying that any attempt to rank characters is invalid?  In a game with limited resources, players must decide where to spend those resources, and they often decide by comparing them.

Yes, we need to compare characters but comparing them is still difficult given the huge amount of variables involved.  We can compare individual powers but a character’s powers are meant to be played together.  We can try to compare similar characters such as offensive, defensive, batteries, board control, special tiles, etc …. but we’re still comparing apples to oranges.  

Many times character’s powers are a mix of the types stated above. This Elektra is a good example. Then it’s like we’re comparing a pasta salad with a stir fry.  

P.S. Colossus is a potato, he’s bland & boring, but gets the job done

Sort of?  Ranking characters in the middle tiers can be pretty difficult.  Ranking characters with complex powersets or characters that rely on specific synergy can be complicated.

I don't think it's at all difficult to say that Apocalypse is a better character than Elektra, though.  That doesn't mean Elektra is garbage or useless, I actually think she's just fine.  But she is objectively not as good as Apocalypse, and I don't see that as a controversial opinion in any way.

HoundofShadow

That's why it's difficult to compare characters. What players have are preferences for certain styles.

Many players, based on comments in past characters threads, prefer direct, cheap and high damage. They hate unfortified cds and repeaters tiles. They hate anything that takes more than 1 turn to activate. They don't like trap tiles either. I would say it's pretty easy to predict the responses. 

If the dev were to use the above as critieria to create characters' powers, I find that the game would be boring, and power creep will creep up even faster with such type of power design.  

Anyway, meta characters should be coming around April-June, based on past two years' meta releases. In the meantime, you'll still be stuck with one or two more mediocre or average 5* releases. 

entrailbucket

Elektra can be objectively worse than Apocalypse and still be a perfectly enjoyable character for you to use.  Those things aren't mutually exclusive.  She's not better than him but she doesn't have to be, because you don't care about that.

I really like using bad or mediocre characters because it's fun.  It's a challenge to use them but I can usually still win.  That doesn't mean they're not mediocre!  The game is much easier, and much more boring, when you only use the good characters.

ThaRoadWarrior

I've been trying to use the term "less good" to avoid trigging people who hear "worse" and want to assume we mean "trash tier."

Counter-play characters like all versions of Elektra mostly are are neat, but I would say that the only one that's truly good is probably 5* Wanda. I'd like this character to work, and I think she'll be fun enough though.

I would also say that Apocalypse is a rarity, a character worth playing for all three of his powers. most of the super good characters in this game have one power that is so useful that it doesn't even matter what else they do (okoye, kitty, really Thor is like this, i'm sure loads of others)

tonypq

Thinking of her red repeater just reminds me of how when I'd use 5Carol, her repeater would never go off. I wanted to like her red, but at least for me it was a nightmare to use. It would either get matched or destroyed before it could do anything. Quite often the repeater would get dropped right next to other red tiles and match itself before a single tick could happen, that was always a whole lot of fun. 

In this case at least you get 2 turns of stun if Elektras repeater is matched. Still not great for 9 AP and even less so if you're constantly missing out on the chunk of damage lost if the repeater is destroyed. 

I agree with others purple is expensive but the passive portion adds more value. Yellow is a pretty nice defensive ability and Swiss army knife. How good she'll ultimately be on her own or with others really revolves all around her yellow, I don't think red/purple will sway battles a whole lot. 

As cheap as her yellow is, I can't tell you how many times I've used my Apoc and was dumbfounded why it was taking me so long to get the AP to fire his yellow. Bad boards happen very often and or AP tug of war if there are characters on the enemy team prioritizing yellow matches. It's nice her yellow nets AP when traps are destroyed to help self fuel it. But there may be plenty of times she might not be helping out a whole lot if you struggle for a while to get the yellow AP needed. With Shang-Chi and other nukers in game, she could get burned down pretty fast before her yellow has any impact at all. 

She's still pretty interesting with her yellow possibly making an some fun defensive team with others. 

bbigler

entrailbucket said:

bbigler said:

entrailbucket said:

Except it's not at all difficult to compare characters from different categories.  There are at least two quite popular threads in the characters forum that rank all of the characters in order. 

Are you saying that any attempt to rank characters is invalid?  In a game with limited resources, players must decide where to spend those resources, and they often decide by comparing them.

Yes, we need to compare characters but comparing them is still difficult given the huge amount of variables involved.  We can compare individual powers but a character’s powers are meant to be played together.  We can try to compare similar characters such as offensive, defensive, batteries, board control, special tiles, etc …. but we’re still comparing apples to oranges.  

Many times character’s powers are a mix of the types stated above. This Elektra is a good example. Then it’s like we’re comparing a pasta salad with a stir fry.  

P.S. Colossus is a potato, he’s bland & boring, but gets the job done

Sort of?  Ranking characters in the middle tiers can be pretty difficult.  Ranking characters with complex powersets or characters that rely on specific synergy can be complicated.

I don't think it's at all difficult to say that Apocalypse is a better character than Elektra, though.  That doesn't mean Elektra is garbage or useless, I actually think she's just fine.  But she is objectively not as good as Apocalypse, and I don't see that as a controversial opinion in any way.

Right, she’s not a top 10 character, but I think she’s still very good, above average, 4 out of 5 stars.  Probably a top 20 character.  We’ll have to see how much play she gets after people have had a chance to champ and play her.  So, like 3 months from now. 

In my MMR of 1 baby champ I see in PVP…..(not including the established meta or boosted 5*s) 

**Shang has been proven, he’s great and used by many (including myself)
**Ultron has had some time and just a few people play him with Polaris in the Simulator 
**Gamora is starting to come out as I’m seeing her more
**Sersi is never seen since most people don’t have her covered well
**Big Wheel is never seen too

entrailbucket

Top 20 is probably about right, and that is *absolutely fine*.  If there was a stronger strike tile metagame at the 5* tier, she'd be higher than that. 

At my tier I will probably never see her unless she's boosted, but I'll probably use her when she's boosted, and she'll be somewhere between ok and good.

Seph1roth5

Math all you want, the real way to see if a character is powerful/good is how often they come up in pvp.  Gotta say, I've NEVER seen sersi or big wheel.  Seen maybe 1 gamora/ultron every couple weeks, MAYBE.  And then it's a "oh good I can stomp this team"

So yeah play who you want/everyone's good/let's all hug a rainbow.  I'm going to keep hoarding for 2/3 LL that are don't suck lol.

bbigler

Because of my restart I think more about the latest 5*s than the established meta Classics.  Meaning, how good are the Latest and do they work together?  Most people I talk to about this game have champed all the meta Classic 5*s, but they’re certainly not representative of all players.  

What about new players that just started champing 5*s? Or ones that have no 5* champs but a hoard instead?  Should they listen to our comments and skip Elektra because she’s not top 10?  I wouldn’t advise that.  Her yellow power alone makes her viable.  

She’s certainly playable in my MMR.  She could be paired with Sersi to feed her yellow & red.  From the 4* tier, Clagger can constantly add yellow tiles.  Melinda could constantly feed her Red and provide a 2nd stun color too.  

Can we have another character category of “Not bad as one of your first 5* champs”? 

TheRiddler

Seph1roth5 said:

Math all you want, the real way to see if a character is powerful/good is how often they come up in pvp.  Gotta say, I've NEVER seen sersi or big wheel.  Seen maybe 1 gamora/ultron every couple weeks, MAYBE.  And then it's a "oh good I can stomp this team"

So yeah play who you want/everyone's good/let's all hug a rainbow.  I'm going to keep hoarding for 2/3 LL that are don't suck lol.

I was talking to somebody in my alliance last night about entering into 5* pvp as he is about to champ the group from the last store.

I have about a dozen champ 5s in the 450-460 range. And I'm pretty much seeing Wanda/Colossus, BRB/Kitty or Polaris, ShangChi/Other and Boosted 5s. Occasionally I will see Profx/Onslaught and Hulkoye. Then for random character teams I see mostly Apocalypse, Ghostpool and Killmonger.

For the characters that have come out in the last year I see Wanda, Colossus and ShangChi and thats pretty much it unless the rest are boosted. I can probably count on my hands the amount of times I've seen the others unboosted.

Is that what everybody else sees in their pvp?

entrailbucket

It's just so weird that we can only handle the extremes of this argument. 

On one side are players who say that anyone who's not "meta" is worthless trash.

On the other side we now have players who are saying that all characters are equally good (maybe this is just that one player though).

Both players are absolutely right, in their own way, but I wish they weren't.

bbigler

TheRiddler said:

Seph1roth5 said:

Math all you want, the real way to see if a character is powerful/good is how often they come up in pvp.  Gotta say, I've NEVER seen sersi or big wheel.  Seen maybe 1 gamora/ultron every couple weeks, MAYBE.  And then it's a "oh good I can stomp this team"

So yeah play who you want/everyone's good/let's all hug a rainbow.  I'm going to keep hoarding for 2/3 LL that are don't suck lol.

I was talking to somebody in my alliance last night about entering into 5* pvp as he is about to champ the group from the last store.

I have about a dozen champ 5s in the 450-460 range. And I'm pretty much seeing Wanda/Colossus, BRB/Kitty or Polaris, ShangChi/Other and Boosted 5s. Occasionally I will see Profx/Onslaught and Hulkoye. Then for random character teams I see mostly Apocalypse, Ghostpool and Killmonger.

For the characters that have come out in the last year I see Wanda, Colossus and ShangChi and thats pretty much it unless the rest are boosted. I can probably count on my hands the amount of times I've seen the others unboosted.

Is that what everybody else sees in their pvp?

I’m seeing the same thing as you and I have just 1 Champ: Shang @ 450.  If we rank characters by how much we see them in PVP, then Apocalypse is far from #1.  More like #10 (the crowd gasps).  About half of the matches consist of the boosted 5*s for the week with the other half being the top 10 meta.  It’s a good variety and not all Wanda/Colossus.  Surprisingly, I have been seeing Gamora.  

bbigler

entrailbucket said:

It's just so weird that we can only handle the extremes of this argument. 

On one side are players who say that anyone who's not "meta" is worthless trash.

On the other side we now have players who are saying that all characters are equally good (maybe this is just that one player though).

Both players are absolutely right, in their own way, but I wish they weren't.

Who’s saying all characters are equally good?  I hope you didn’t get that impression from me.  I think some are better than others, but you also have to work with what you got.  

entrailbucket

bbigler said:

entrailbucket said:

It's just so weird that we can only handle the extremes of this argument. 

On one side are players who say that anyone who's not "meta" is worthless trash.

On the other side we now have players who are saying that all characters are equally good (maybe this is just that one player though).

Both players are absolutely right, in their own way, but I wish they weren't.

Who’s saying all characters are equally good?  I hope you didn’t get that impression from me.  I think some are better than others, but you also have to work with what you got.  

No, it's the player who explicitly keeps saying that all characters are equally good because they do different things.  In the Abigail thread he was arguing that she's just as good as Apocalypse.

Bad

Apocalypse is one of the Three Damage Multipliers. Dot. That is the peak of this game. Nothing is better than to increase the damage of others so there is no better characters than apocalypse, okoye and SW.

He is not the best on defense as AI will misuse his yellow. And a lot of new characters have their best power on yellow like elektra so both won't be compatibles. 
Well, those facts don't make that apocalypse is still one of the best .
SW is a slower damage multiplier but she is great defensively, more than apocalypse and okoye, so she is more popular. 
Also SW boost more effectively godboosted characters. 
And if another character multiplying damage appeared it will be another character which won't be compared with any other. 

ThaRoadWarrior

I think it’s even more important for New Players to compare the attainable new characters to the harder to get good characters you are up against, because these are the tools you have to use against them. That was my experience transitioning with a single 5 at least.

Seph1roth5

I'm not even looking for a super meta char to bust open my LL hoard.  Last time I did it was for scarlet witch/ronan/knull.

SW - I liked her ap regen, damage reduction, and the blue power if it came up (rarely does)
ronan - I liked his multiplying blues, big countdown hit for taking out annoying 4* in pvp
Knull - Liked his general beefiness, steady damage, and purple power which rarely comes up for me.

All 3 had basically 1 power each that I thought was really good/interesting, one that seemed good, and the other was unimportant.  I mainly polaris/brb in pvp but sometimes swap to apocalypse/sw for when special tiles are bad or I just want a good beatdown.

Sw was by far the most used for me out of all of those, since her AP generation can help with anyone else.  Ronan I've used some here and there, whenever capt marvel 4* is powered up or there's a fight vs 1 or 2 people.  Knull I'll use if I have a 3rd slot and don't know what to do with it.

I just don't see many of the 5* that came out since that trio being that useful to me.  I would've liked a Shang Chi or Odin, but never liked the rest of their LL pack.

bbigler

Bad said:

Apocalypse is one of the Three Damage Multipliers. Dot. That is the peak of this game. Nothing is better than to increase the damage of others so there is no better characters than apocalypse, okoye and SW.

He is not the best on defense as AI will misuse his yellow. And a lot of new characters have their best power on yellow like elektra so both won't be compatibles. 
Well, those facts don't make that apocalypse is still one of the best .
SW is a slower damage multiplier but she is great defensively, more than apocalypse and okoye, so she is more popular. 
Also SW boost more effectively godboosted characters. 
And if another character multiplying damage appeared it will be another character which won't be compared with any other. 

I respectfully disagree.  Any character power can be amplified to the point of overpowering all others.  What if there was a power that drained 75% of your AP every turn? Or a power that added 10K in protect strength each turn?  Or a power that healed your team for 30K each turn?  Or a power that generated 5 AP in all colors each turn? Or a power that stuns the enemy team each turn? 

Any of those extreme powers would dominate the game and be considered the best.  Remember the broken Gambit era?  He wasn’t a damage increaser but dominated the game.  OML healing used to dominate.  Thor’s AP generation used to dominate.  Now Wanda & Colossus damage reduction is dominating.  Who knows what will dominate in the future?  Continuous Team invisibility?  Winfinite combos? Perhaps enemy level reduction powers?  

entrailbucket

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I think it’s even more important for New Players to compare the attainable new characters to the harder to get good characters you are up against, because these are the tools you have to use against them. That was my experience transitioning with a single 5 at least.

This is a huge problem that gets short shift around here because reasons, I guess.  These super old Classics like Okoye and Apocalypse (or even SW/Colossus, who are getting older) are hard for new players to get ahold of, and most vets like it that way.

If there was real power creep, new players would be fine because these old characters would be outclassed by the new stuff.  Instead they're stuck chasing down 3-year-old Classics, or they get to try to beat Apocalypse with Abigail Brand.