MPQ Halloween 2021 Activities

Bad

Tony_Foot said:

This has been the hardest year as a hoarder as even I have struggled to find reason to break on one poor release after another. 

Actually this is a interesting phrase. After colossus and wanda and SC, probably the 3 meta 5*s this year.
And actually proves what I said that player's interest sometimes going against the game. 
What you were expecting is a broken character. Someone so fast or so tough to fight that all the others cannot stand a chance. The type of character everyone is going to ask a nerf some months after. And everyone is going to get angry after.
I don't know how gamora's powers were before but it seems it changed.
I heared rumours that SC changed few times too before release. So:
A broken character is not going to happen again, on gamora's release they said clearly they were passing rebalancing with her.
You will always be finding reasons to unhoard, sadly.

BlackBoltRocks

Bad said:

You will always be finding reasons to unhoard, sadly.

More like players like these will never find a reason to break their hoard, that reason being the characters are not to their taste/not up to their standards for a myriad reasons. Some people will never be satisfied no matter what.

ThaRoadWarrior

part of the problem must be that we are all fishbowled into our own little sub-metas based on MMR when it comes to PVP. What people are doing at 500+ 5* play vs baby champ play vs 4* etc. I assume there is some “largest group” of players that they focus on to make the biggest ROI, and perhaps this change to ghost rider is indicative of Shards and all that pushing players up to 5* play in higher numbers? Impossible to know

DAZ0273

Yeah. SHIELD Sim to me looks like Kitty/BRB/Polaris nearly adfinitum with some SW/Colossus. My MMR is puny 5's champ. I have no idea what it looks like to a 550 player. Conversely, I no longer have any idea what 4* MMR looks like beyond the ubiquitous Polaris + whoever. This game is being played on multiple levels all at once with various issues depending where on the path you are.

One of my favourite player gripes of all time was about a particular meta being a health pack sink ( I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head) but then it came out in the thread that this player had more than 1,000 healthpacks saved with plenty of Taco tokens to boot for more! I have no idea what level of play they must have been involved in that would require that level of healthpacks - more likely it was just that they fell into a pattern of complaint regardless of how ridiculously well equipped they were to deal with it.

Daredevil217

entrailbucket said:

HoundofShadow said:

The reason why 2018 was chosen is because in the first years of many games, changes are made frequently. It's logical because the metric and data that dev relies on in the first few years largely come from players' feedbacks. Over time, they would have gathered large amount of data/metric, refined and tweaked those metrics, and fewer changes are expected because things more or less stabilise. In terms of no of nerf, if we compare the first 4 years of nerfs to the last 4 years of nerfs, I believe there are more nerfs from 2014-2017 compared to 2018 to 2021. Players who play from 2014 can verify if what I said is accurate.

Since I only started playing in late 2017, I can't break down the entire meta set and I will limit it to only 5* meta play. The first 5* was created in September 2015. In late 2017, the meta was 3* and 5* Gambit. 

Timeline of 5* meta from late 2017 to 2021, based on imperfect memory:

Late 2017
Gambit reigns lasted from October 2017 to July 2018 - 9 months reign. Archangel was the first counter release in December 2017 and Cap (IW) was the second counter released in April 2018. Gambit was finally nerfed in July 2018. Because Gambit received strong feedbacks, that probably explains why a counter was also released 2 months later. The next counter happened 4 months later. I think Thor was also part of the Gambit meta later but I can't be sure

2018
Okoye was released in May 2018 and Kitty in September 2018. After Gambit was nerfed, the meta shifted to more Thorokoye: an offensive glass cannon that doesn't need a counter. The only thing wrong with this meta is that they made pvps boring. I think Hela (released April 2019) was the first 5* to directly counter this meta a little because Thor operates at <50% health and she punishes opponents for having 10 or more green aps.

Kitty pops up in September 2018 to create another meta with R4G but she didn't have an edge over Okoye. So, essentially we have 1 + 2 metas. Players were looking for counters but SM(BiB) was already a counter. I think 4* players were more unhappy with Kitty, rather than 5* players since they have Okoye to true heal.

Bishop popped in November 2018 and became a 5* meta, who unintentionally killed these two metas but requires a lot of healthpacks.

2019
Bishop continues his reign of terror until his nerf in September 2020. This is probably the longest reign a controversial "meta" has achieved.  Bishop managed to bring out the difference in thinking or grievances between non-5* and 5* players.

Non-5* players: Bishop allows them to punch up and they are sick of getting steamrolled by 5* players in pvps. With Bishop, 5* players are afraid of beating them.

5* players: they are getting punished for making match-3 and getting stunlocked by Bishop. Bishop made all 5* useless.

Meanwhile, Professor X (August released), Worthy Cap (September) and BRB (December released) were released. I often see Professor X paired with America Chavez. I think some players were using him to counter Bishop with success. Then Hawkeye/Worthy Cap meta was created. I think Bishop and Worthy Cap were called the Stunner Bros.

2020
BRB/Bishop and Hawkeye/Worthy Cap were the common pairs until The Hulk (Immortal) was released on 26 March. I can't remember if Hulkoye was killing these two teams before their nerfs.

Then, on 7 May, Apocalypse (Classic) was released with immunity to stun. I can't remember who was paired with Apocalypse often. Probably Kitty or Thor.

After Stunner Bros were nerfed, iHulkoye  and Kitty BRB reigned supreme in pvps. At this point of time, we have these two as our core metas. This is where 5* meta really have a rock/scissor/paper.

Kitty/BRB was eaten by Apocalypse/Thor, who was eaten by iHulkoye, who was eaten by Kitty/BRB.

2021
Wanda was created in April and killed iHulkoye. She and Colossus formed a new defensive meta until Ultron and Gamora arrives in September/October to counter them. During these six months, Apocalypse + Wanda/Colossus were probably the fastest counters to Wanda/Colossus, before 5* boost week kicks in.

With the exception of Bishop , completely dominant 5* meta rarely last more than 1 year. I suppose they were busy with Shards/Mighty Tokens project from late 2019 to mid 2020 and didn't focus too much on Stunner Bros. After they were more or less done with shards, they focused on Stunner Bros.

I don't compete for T1 in pvps because I'm not interested in Line coordination and I don't have time to shield hop frequently. Besides, you don't need to be T1 in pvps to know who the meta are. Once you cross 1000-1200 points, the metas show up. And those extensive knowledge comes from experiences of other players who share them in the forum. Also, those top players who lock themselves in Line will come back and post in the forums when they have beefs with the developers. So, that's where you see things from the really top players' experiences.

Your recollections of the metagame over these years are completely different from mine.  I was playing at a very high level during that time, and I remember exactly what was being used.  I've been a 5* player literally since 5* existed.  You're reconstructing a meta that you were not a part of based on forum posts and guesswork.  

Some of the teams you cite were never used at all, or were never a significant share of the metagame.  Almost nothing of what you wrote matches up with the highly specific timing of the cycle of releases and counters that you constructed, again via guesswork, in the previous post.

Going back to your previous point, no, it is not at all clear or easy to deduce their plans for countering characters or changing the metagame.

I find Hounds history lesson to be pretty spot on. Timing may be a bit wonky, but he more or less hit all the high notes. If you’re in 550 land then that obviously skews things greatly. Because it is much easier to collect 13 covers, sometimes on day one of a release, than to collect 113. So at the 550 level people are pretty much playing whatever 550s they unhoarded for and that lack of choice skews data.  If I have Switch and Colossus at 450 but unhoarded for a 550 Kitty/BRB, I’m of course playing the latter (god boosts have taught me how easily a 100 level advantage makes short work of that duo).  I also imagine that 4*s have less of an impact on the 550 meta because match damage alone makes quick work of them (Again, I can now say this thanks to my experience with god boosts).

I also wonder if the developers cater to the 550 crowd least because with few exceptions, they are the biggest minority, will spend regardless, and complain regardless.  I’m okay with this being pure speculation, because despite your thirst for behind the scenes info, they would be dumb to admit that it’s actually true. But it seems their 5* counters are geared more towards my level of play (I build wide, baby champing everyone; rather than building tall and going all in on three metas). 

Like Hound said though, if you are saying his history lesson is wrong, then the onus is on you to give us a proper meta history lesson. I mean you can always decline, but it’s kind of weak just to yell false without speaking truth to back it up. 

entrailbucket

HoundofShadow said:

I'm curious, how does the late 2017 to 2021 meta look like for you if it's not what I and some other experienced? Also, more importantly, what mmr level are you using? 

As for datamined info, those info aren't  made public because it's not official for release. Players who consume such  info run a risk of getting upset or angry. It also proves that the developer do re-balances from time to time before character releases. Unfortunately, players who read such info frame such changes that they don't like as "nerf".

Anyway, those who have champed GR, please do a review over the weekend to share with players how the new GR compares to the old GR.

Happily! 

When you talk about the metagame in MPQ, especially in the past, you're talking about one team.  Competitive players find the best team, get that team, then run that 100% of the time.  The cycle has repeated throughout the years.  Until 5* boosts, I saw the same team in every single event.



Late 2017 - Gambit and Thor are released in the same Latest cycle, the best team is Gambit/Thor.

May 2018 - Okoye released.  Gambit is nerfed shortly thereafter.  The best team becomes Okoye/Thor.

2019 - The best team is still Okoye/Thor.

2020 - Hulk is released.  The best team is now Okoye/Hulk.

2021 - Scarlet Witch and Colossus are released.  The best team is Scarlet Witch/Colossus.


So where were the counters for these characters, by your previous deductions?  Why did we never get a counter for Okoye?  For Thor?  Why did Hulk get crushed by Scarlet Witch?

dianetics

How would you realistically counter okoye?
make a character like rogue in the 5* tier?
or a she hulk like character that drains all ap.
or maybe a character that negates bonus damage.
it’s going to be tough without creating a character that’s too powerful

edit** I guess you could make a character that deals permanent damage to a random enemy for 100% that is healed.

HoundofShadow

Our list didn't differ a lot. The only team missing is Kitty, Bishop/Capworthy, Prof X and BRB. And that difference largely happened in 2019.

The counters for Gambit were, by the dev own admission, Archangel and Cap IW.

Thorokoye didn't need a counter, the only counter they need is how to make pvp less boring. So, the counter was a shakeup of meta. Obviously, 550 and 450 mmr is different, so those missing lists above shook up 450 but not 550.

We did have a direct counter for Thor: Hela. IHulk also countered Thor. As mentioned, Thorokoye didn't need a counter because they are glass cannon. Thorokoye functioned quickly because of 50% health Thor and Okoye complementing with each other. Over the AI side, it's 100% health Thor. You counter him by spamming powers or 1 shot him before he hits 50% health. Okoye by herself has an inbuilt counter, which is by moving her to the back. Onslaught is a counter. 

As I mentioned and I should amend my statement, meta are shaken up either by having counters to them or by creating another meta. And to reiterate and add on, no meta has complete domination at 450 mmr level that went beyond 1 year, with the exception of Bishop. At your level, Thorokoye dominated for about 2 years.

Wanda killed iHulkoye because he was building at least 4 charges per turn on Wanda's repeaters, which reduced all subsequent damage by 80%. With Gamora out, we'll probably see her with iHulkoye in Shield sim wiping Apocalypse/Colossus/Wanda.

I think you have an extreme view of what a counter is, and if I didn't remember wrongly, it simply means obliteration of the meta, both on offense and defense.
For 450 mmr, we don't need obliteration of meta. That's why 450 mmr seems to be more fun than 550 mmr because we have more variety.

entrailbucket

In your previous post, you cited a very specific cycle of a certain period of months, in which the metagame changes, the devs create counters to that metagame, and eventually a new one is released.  You said that anyone could easily work out this cycle based on deduction.

I pointed out that there has been no such cycle.  The metagame changes much less frequently and much more sporadically than what your post listed, and counters are sometimes introduced, but often have no impact at all.  Hela, for example, perhaps countered Thor on paper, but was never widely used.

I didn't have 550s in 2018.  However, I was a competitive 5* player then.  By your own admission, you started playing this game in 2017.

Many teams may be viable at the 450 level now.  Many teams were viable at the 450 level over the years, as well.  At any specific point, only one of those teams was the best, and the best team was used 100% of the time by players who were competing.


So why are the devs now producing counters like Scarlet Witch and Gamora instead of counters like Hela and Archangel?  Something has changed, and no, I'm not able to deduce what has changed by looking at the history.

MegaBee

dianetics said:

How would you realistically counter okoye?

Keep the TU tiles low, like Onslaught.

dianetics

I don’t mean how do you defeat her. What would be a character implementation would put your opponent at risk like 5witch did to ihulk.

if okoye is the central star of 2 top tier meta teams that dominate all of 550 play as entrail suggests then she would be the character that needs a counter to reduce her effectiveness.

** edit Onslaught doesn’t do it. He’s been out too long and the proc is too conditionary

entrailbucket

dianetics said:

I don’t mean how do you defeat her. What would be a character implementation would put your opponent at risk like 5witch did to ihulk.

if okoye is the central star of 2 top tier meta teams that dominate all of 550 play as entrail suggests then she would be the character that needs a counter to reduce her effectiveness.

** edit Onslaught doesn’t do it. He’s been out too long and the proc is too conditionary

That's a fantastic question that I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about over the years.  They've tried so many things (like Onslaught, for example) and it's had zero effect on her.

My suggestion was a character that passively set the enemy team's TU AP to zero every turn, but that effect is very narrow and would basically only do anything against Okoye. 

You could create a character that passively damaged the enemy team every time they matched TU, but that's very wide and probably too good.

dianetics

Knulls purple was also and attempt but it’s too expensive.

im guessing they don’t want to go overboard, and they don’t want to reduce her damage bonus either.

they let her sit because she is now in classics and she is much harder to get to now.

Bad

To be fair the only hard counter released is SW.
Gamora needs to collect 7 yellow and to protect her repeater: on defense that it's nothing. And still that won't protect her from the thorn- whipp repply from SW, except it she gets stunned.
Ihulk getting crushed is an indirect way for okoye being crushed too on pvp as there is no better defensive and ofensive partner for her.

entrailbucket

Bad said:

To be fair the only hard counter released is SW.
Gamora needs to collect 7 yellow and to protect her repeater: on defense that it's nothing. And still that won't protect her from the thorn- whipp repply from SW, except it she gets stunned.
Ihulk getting crushed is an indirect way for okoye being crushed too on pvp as there is no better defensive and ofensive partner for her.

Right, so...WHY?  Why release one super hard crushing counter to one meta character, and then stop?  This reflects something they've never, ever done before.  Is it something they're trying to do more often?  Is it an alternative to making changes to Hulk?  

Why can't we just know this stuff?

Maybe some people aren't interested in the whys, and that's ok.  What harm is there in briefly telling the rest of us what their strategy is?  Can we expect more of these counters?  How might they choose who gets countered?  Are they satisfied with how the new strategy is working?

dianetics

To be cynical money. The cover race and roster slots that fuel earnings is the reason.
From a business perspective why would I pay time and money to a pr person to explain development.
from a practical perspective it’s just lazy.
There is probably no specific reason but many different factors when the actual audience is a tiny minority of the player base 

mdreyer93

Kinda bummed the Halloween Horrors vault doesn't have any 5* shards. I don't think I'll be spending any of my HP hoard on it. I was hoping for some shards for the revamped Ghost Rider...

dianetics

There isn’t much in there besides be4st. 1/41 ain’t great odds. It would have been cool if they threw a costume in there or something 

Bad

entrailbucket said:.

Right, so...WHY?  Why release one super hard crushing counter to one meta character, and then stop?  This reflects something they've never, ever done before.  Is it something they're trying to do more often?  Is it an alternative to making changes to Hulk?  

Why can't we just know this stuff?

Maybe some people aren't interested in the whys, and that's ok.  What harm is there in briefly telling the rest of us what their strategy is?  Can we expect more of these counters?  How might they choose who gets countered?  Are they satisfied with how the new strategy is working?

I think it's obvious. They were a duo pretty broken offensively and defensively and if not stopping them in time all pvp would be ihulkoye teams. 
They were 80% of pvp teams and an auto pilot team. Also the gacha rule mentioned is fulfilled: one day a good character will not be good anymore.
I don't have okoye but I think still it's possible to win battles. Obviously it's gonna be hits. Perhaps what some players don't like is to get a lot of hits.

HoundofShadow

The cycle is not meant to be followed strictly. The point of that cycle is tell you that you can roughly expect to see the meta change every 6 months or so, due to rock/scissor/paper. The reason why you can't put a specific month on the cycle is because as the dev mentioned, their schedules change somewhat frequently. If Marvel decided to ask the dev work on a last minute or urgent project, they might have to stop what they are doing and fulfill Marvel's request first. 

Moving on, meta change is defined as counter to an existing (dominating) meta or a shakeup of the meta. A shakeup of meta doesn't have to be a nerf or a counter. It can simply be new mechanics. For example, Colossus is a meta, but he doesn't counter any existing meta. However, he shook the meta by introducing defensive meta, where he reduces enemy match damage by 83%, and also kicked off match damage meta. Together with Wanda, they created a passive offensive-defensive meta which covered both power and match damage.

We are not going to argue about the efficiency of the counters created in the last 4 years towards various metas and as you mentioned, counters were created. What's important is that it signifies the intention of the dev, that is to shake up the meta. If the counter doesn't work, they create another one. It proves my point that they will create counter for (problematic) meta approximately 6 months later. 

The first 5* was created in September 2015 and 5* was meant to be the end game. In the first couple of years they don't have enough data for 5* gameplay. From Sep 2015 onwards, they were accumulating data and feedback about 5* gameplay. Back then, there weren't a lot of 5* for them to have meaningful comparison. It's 2021 now and over the years, they have learned the mistakes they made and refined and tweaked the way nerfs and counters are handled, based on feedbacks, metrics and datas collected.

In 2019, I think one of the core game designers left MPQ and worked on other Marvel game. So, they were probably adjusting to new changes in their design team.

In 2020, we had Covid-19, which affected a lot of Marvel Projects.

To end, it's impossible for anyone to have perfect execution of any project they do. People become better when they learn from their own mistakes and experiences of others. As to why counters in 2019 aren't as good as those in 2021 or 2020, the short answer is experiences gained over the years refined their skills and maybe a "shakeup" of the dev team contributed to new way of approaching the game metaplay.