Break the hoard or not ?

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  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,739 Chairperson of the Boards
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    We don't know what their criteria are, but there are some commonalities among all the characters to be nerfed:

    - Every character that's been nerfed has been really strong, either offensively or defensively.
    - As a corollary, every character to be nerfed has dominated the meta for at least several months.
    - Every character to be nerfed has had a designed counter introduced before being nerfed, and the counter hasn't reduced their use.

    There are plenty of characters that have met these criteria that *haven't* been nerfed, but every character that's been nerfed has met them. 

    What does that mean?  It means we don't know anything.
    Who was OML's specific designed counter? I guess Kate Bishop's blue countered his healing, I think she was in game before his nerf? Can't think of anybody else?
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Sure, there's tons of variety!  The top players use all kinds of different teams...Okoye/Hulk, Okoye/Thor, now Okoye/Scarlet Witch.  The boosted 5* are definitely having an impact, I saw plenty of Okoye/Iceman and Okoye/Black Bolt too.  A lvl550 Okoye is pretty much a prerequisite for placing high in CL10 PvE as well -- look at the top of those brackets every event.


    The point is: I don't know if they're going to nerf her, *but neither does anybody else*. 

    There hasn't been a major nerf in a long time.  The effect of this is that a number of top players seem to be confused about whose game this is, or assume that strong characters are safe to plow resources into. Every time there's a big change people seem to be shocked by it, as though it hasn't happened a bunch of times before.

    Those of us who have lived through multiple cycles know that no character is safe, we don't have any say in how things work, and the devs will kill a strong character at any time with very little warning.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    DAZ0273 said:
    We don't know what their criteria are, but there are some commonalities among all the characters to be nerfed:

    - Every character that's been nerfed has been really strong, either offensively or defensively.
    - As a corollary, every character to be nerfed has dominated the meta for at least several months.
    - Every character to be nerfed has had a designed counter introduced before being nerfed, and the counter hasn't reduced their use.

    There are plenty of characters that have met these criteria that *haven't* been nerfed, but every character that's been nerfed has met them. 

    What does that mean?  It means we don't know anything.
    Who was OML's specific designed counter? I guess Kate Bishop's blue countered his healing, I think she was in game before his nerf? Can't think of anybody else?
    Kate Bishop.  Predictably, it didn't work at all.  At the time players had high hopes that she would counter him, but in practice it was just way too slow to have any impact.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,739 Chairperson of the Boards
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    R4G wonders when they will be nerfed.
    Kitty wonders also as the two of them have far greater impact at lower tiers as a cheap impact at low covers. Polaris might have loosened the death grip of Gritty on certain tiers but they can still do a lot from a weak cover distribution that disrupts what should be that tiers meta. 
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 9,739 Chairperson of the Boards
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    DAZ0273 said:
    We don't know what their criteria are, but there are some commonalities among all the characters to be nerfed:

    - Every character that's been nerfed has been really strong, either offensively or defensively.
    - As a corollary, every character to be nerfed has dominated the meta for at least several months.
    - Every character to be nerfed has had a designed counter introduced before being nerfed, and the counter hasn't reduced their use.

    There are plenty of characters that have met these criteria that *haven't* been nerfed, but every character that's been nerfed has met them. 

    What does that mean?  It means we don't know anything.
    Who was OML's specific designed counter? I guess Kate Bishop's blue countered his healing, I think she was in game before his nerf? Can't think of anybody else?
    Kate Bishop.  Predictably, it didn't work at all.  At the time players had high hopes that she would counter him, but in practice it was just way too slow to have any impact.
    It didn't work because it wasn't a permanent reduction to OML's health for the match. You had a few rounds to try and kill him and if you failed, he just healed right up again. But OML's healing wasn't really a dominating the meta type thing - it was a 2* player can get one cover in yellow and all of a sudden they are never using any other character for anything in all and every mode.
  • Zalasta
    Zalasta Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
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    I did finally decide to break the hoard. I was able to champ both Wanda, and Colossus. I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised by both of them. They may not be meta, but then I'm not a competitive PVP player. I will say that they've both been great support characters, and fun to pair with various teams.  No regrets on busting the hoard. I haven't had this much fun in a while.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
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    There are other teams that you've forgotten, before the 5* boost. For example:

    Kitty/BRB; Kitty/R4G; Kitty/Polaris; Polaris/BRB; BRB/Apocalypse; Apocalypse/Onslaught; Prof $/Onslaught

    With the 5* boost, there are more varieties from the boosted list, but the list of characters above appears less frequently.

    I think for those pro-Okoye's nerf, it's important to see how their roster look like. For example, if Okoye was nerfed, Apocalypse will step up and replace her. Maybe pro-nerf camp have high level Apocalypses. And given that Okoye has been promoted really heavily over the years, chances are most players affected have higher levelled Okoyes compared to their Apocalypses or other top characters. If so, this is done due to competitive reasons, rather than game balance reason.  >:)

  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    There are other teams that you've forgotten, before the 5* boost. For example:

    Kitty/BRB; Kitty/R4G; Kitty/Polaris; Polaris/BRB; BRB/Apocalypse; Apocalypse/Onslaught; Prof $/Onslaught

    With the 5* boost, there are more varieties from the boosted list, but the list of characters above appears less frequently.

    I think for those pro-Okoye's nerf, it's important to see how their roster look like. For example, if Okoye was nerfed, Apocalypse will step up and replace her. Maybe pro-nerf camp have high level Apocalypses. And given that Okoye has been promoted really heavily over the years, chances are most players affected have higher levelled Okoyes compared to their Apocalypses or other top characters. If so, this is done due to competitive reasons, rather than game balance reason.  >:)

    I very rarely see any of those teams, but maybe they're played at lower tiers?  I have 550 MMR and it's been wall-to-wall Okoye/x for 3 years.  When I break MMR it's 100% Polaris/x.

    I'm actually not pro- or anti- Okoye nerf, it doesn't affect me in any way.  I have her at 480 or something but I never use her.  After the first time I got burned by a nerf, in the first year of the game, I promised to never let it happen again.  So I don't prioritize leveling anyone, I just open everything and let covers fall randomly.

    I just don't understand how people can look at the entire history of the game and say "oh that'll never happen again," and continue putting all their eggs in one basket.

    It's like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown over and over again and Charlie Brown convincing himself it won't happen the next time.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited June 2021
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    We just need to take a reasonable approach and we'll realise Okoye is highly unlikely to get nerfed.

    What we know: the dev are aware of who the "best" character(s) are in the game and they are fine with it as long as they don't cause any big recurring problem.

    Gambit was nerfed mainly because 1) it was compulsory to use him as a counter and 2) the previous counters they released were not working. So, the dev are taking a release counters before nerf characters approach.

    Bishop and CapWorthy made 5* look like a 2* or 3* and they render players' characters inactive very quickly. So, they got the nerf.

    So, the dev have gave good reasons why they were nerfed. They don't nerf characters just because players are sick of seeing the same glass cannon meta team(s).

    Let's go through the 5* meta beginning from Okoye.

    Thorokoye: great offensively but a glass cannon. The only complain that they get was they are boring to fight against. Again, such problem has been prevalent  for years where you see the same set of teams over and over when you reach certain points in PvP.

    Gritty: healthpack drainer but Thorokoye could heal from those damage. Most complain probably comes from 4* players and maybe some 5* players without Thorokoye. The other counters are simply to match away their strike tiles or use SMBB. Bishop was also part of the counter. 

    Britty: complain was mainly they were slow to use and slow to fight against. Counters that bypass protect tiles were created more often. 

    iHulkoye: great offensively and defensively. Britty was the natural counter but they were slow. More counters were released and Wanda kinda stop this team. 

    So, the dev isn't going to nerf Okoye simply because people are tired of seeing her. She already has an in-built counter to by putting her at the back. She's a glass cannon. So far, counters have been working well. 

    On the flip side, let's play around with the idea that Okoye gets nerfed. Apocalypse will replace her. Over time, people will complain about getting bored of seeing Apocalypse. He gets nerfed. I think the next want to step up is like Wanda and Colossus. And the complain will be the same complain as Britty.

    Basically, getting bored of seeing the same character is not a sufficient reason for nerf. There must be more than that, including counters released are not working. Nerfs are also highly related to PvP rather than pve.








  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    These are all exactly the same arguments made about Gambit, Sentry, X-force, Bishop, and every other character that got destroyed. 

    You can go back through all the old threads and read people defending them in the same ways, and *they were right*, but the devs didn't care, or they saw something different.

    Ultimately, this argument just isn't worth having.  If people choose to take another run at that football even though it's been pulled away every single time before, they deserve what they get.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    “The point is: I don't know if they're going to nerf her, *but neither does anybody else*.”

    I mean… is this really saying anything at all? I could say the same thing about Wasp. Sure, they’ve never nerfed the worst character, but there’s a lot they haven’t done before!!

    I don’t think anyone is saying “Okoye will never be nerfed”.  Like Hound, I think it’s highly unlikely, but clearly she is a better candidate than Wasp (or maybe not!? We don’t know anything!). Who are all these Charlie Browns you’re arguing with? That’s the thing I don’t get.

    “I'm actually not pro- or anti- Okoye nerf, it doesn't affect me in any way.  I have her at 480 or something but I never use her.“

    The part I bolded is just not true. You yourself have said that in order to succeed you need a 550 Okoye. So while YOU don’t play her, everyone else does. And so it stands to reason that everyone else losing their most effective weapon would result in better placement and rewards in both PVP and PVE for you, and you wouldn’t have to do a thing to change your playstyle. Your 550 pistols become a lot more attractive once the rocket launchers get banned. 

    Often times it feels like you’re debating with folks who I don’t see making the arguments you are claiming they are. So it feels like you’re actually arguing with or trying to convince yourself. Like, who are these Charlie Browns everywhere who think nerfs can never happen to the most powerful characters? Who are all these people who don’t understand “conventional wisdom” that having more options is a good thing? Who are all these people who don’t understand that over 7 years, the game has changed and will continue to change immensely? You’re saying a lot of (at least to me) really obvious statements and so I’m genuinely curious if this comes from having to face an endless sea of 550 Okoyes for YEARS rocking 550 classics who aren’t nearly as good. I imagine that must’ve been hard. 

    By the way:
    - You have used developer history as a reason to say “They will nerf her [Polaris]” going as far as telling folks to make other plans. 
    - Others (myself included) have used developer history to say “I don’t THINK Okoye will be nerfed”.
    - To counter all those historical examples you say we can’t trust history because the developers have done unprecedented things before! We know nothing!
    - Doesn’t that kind of negate the first point?  I don’t quite understand. 
  • Codex
    Codex Posts: 226 Tile Toppler
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    I too think the D3 would nerf Okoye. My thinking is strictly from a revenue source for D3. Once I get  a high level Okoye or one that competes well is PvE and PvP. D3 will be losing my revenue stream.

    One option for d3 is to create a better Okoye. This is a likely scenario. But consider if Okoye is enough for me to place well in PvE and PvP then why would i spend. For those ppl not competive like myself that only reaches progresssion the only way would be if they nerf Okoye and leaving me to chase Apoc or next great boosting damage character. 

    I don't know if I am alone in my thinking. I have to say from a money making perspective d3 could nerf Okoye. 

    I do think also that since d3 has put out Okoye in a lot of special legendary stores more so than others they may not nerf her. Reason being D3 sees the enormous impact of Okoye making it less of a grind of a game. And nerfing Okoye may cause some ppl to leave.

    Anyways that is my 2 HP.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Codex said:
    I too think the D3 would nerf Okoye. My thinking is strictly from a revenue source for D3. Once I get  a high level Okoye or one that competes well is PvE and PvP. D3 will be losing my revenue stream.

    One option for d3 is to create a better Okoye. This is a likely scenario. But consider if Okoye is enough for me to place well in PvE and PvP then why would i spend. For those ppl not competive like myself that only reaches progresssion the only way would be if they nerf Okoye and leaving me to chase Apoc or next great boosting damage character. 

    I don't know if I am alone in my thinking. I have to say from a money making perspective d3 could nerf Okoye. 

    I do think also that since d3 has put out Okoye in a lot of special legendary stores more so than others they may not nerf her. Reason being D3 sees the enormous impact of Okoye making it less of a grind of a game. And nerfing Okoye may cause some ppl to leave.

    Anyways that is my 2 HP.
    I agree with the logic. However, there is still money to be made off of Okoye in two ways. One, if you create characters that pair extremely well with her, people will chase them.  Two, create characters that counter Okoye, and people will chase them too.

    Scarlet Witch actually both pairs well with and counter’s Okoye’s best partner (while not shutting down Okoye herself). And people are finally moved to bust their hoards without a nerf or strong counter to Okoye herself being released. That’s genius. Make a harder counter to hulk or a soft counter to Okoye next. Then another good Okoye partner. Then a hard counter to Okoye. Then a new meta character. People would chase all of these and Okoye would remained untouched. Since she doesn’t break the game like Bishop did, it can absolutely be done. The question is will they do it. If they do, Switch was a great start!
  • ammenell
    ammenell Posts: 817 Critical Contributor
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    not all players are competitive.

    the last shield I used was 5 seasons ago, and after my last health pack I'm usually done with mpq for that evening.

    yet I have all the meta 5*s max covered, including wanda and colossus and enough pulls left to go all in for whatever meta latest comes after ronan 


  • Srheer0
    Srheer0 Posts: 510 Critical Contributor
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    If you really think about it, they have tried to put okoye tech into champion designs.

    Okoyes biggest feature is boosting ally power damages based on current TUP AP total.  

    Dark beast gets increased match damage based on his black AP.
    Apoc boosts damage in a similar way, but a flat amount when his yellow repeaters are out
    And now we have Wanda who increases specific colour damage by 3 4 or 5% per AP in the colour you chose at the point of it firing.

    I don't want to see Okoye nerfed as she is good for making PVE clears faster. What isn't good is having the iHulk interaction with her, forcing you to take care of her before you kill iHulk.

    Perhaps a suitable nerf to iHulk would be after 3 deaths he can't revive anymore. Or if you kill him while he is stunned he won't revive. Or put a green door tile on the board that you can match away like j5an / L5ki to stop them ressing.
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    “The point is: I don't know if they're going to nerf her, *but neither does anybody else*.”

    I mean… is this really saying anything at all? I could say the same thing about Wasp. Sure, they’ve never nerfed the worst character, but there’s a lot they haven’t done before!!

    I don’t think anyone is saying “Okoye will never be nerfed”.  Like Hound, I think it’s highly unlikely, but clearly she is a better candidate than Wasp (or maybe not!? We don’t know anything!). Who are all these Charlie Browns you’re arguing with? That’s the thing I don’t get.

    “I'm actually not pro- or anti- Okoye nerf, it doesn't affect me in any way.  I have her at 480 or something but I never use her.“

    The part I bolded is just not true. You yourself have said that in order to succeed you need a 550 Okoye. So while YOU don’t play her, everyone else does. And so it stands to reason that everyone else losing their most effective weapon would result in better placement and rewards in both PVP and PVE for you, and you wouldn’t have to do a thing to change your playstyle. Your 550 pistols become a lot more attractive once the rocket launchers get banned. 

    Often times it feels like you’re debating with folks who I don’t see making the arguments you are claiming they are. So it feels like you’re actually arguing with or trying to convince yourself. Like, who are these Charlie Browns everywhere who think nerfs can never happen to the most powerful characters? Who are all these people who don’t understand “conventional wisdom” that having more options is a good thing? Who are all these people who don’t understand that over 7 years, the game has changed and will continue to change immensely? You’re saying a lot of (at least to me) really obvious statements and so I’m genuinely curious if this comes from having to face an endless sea of 550 Okoyes for YEARS rocking 550 classics who aren’t nearly as good. I imagine that must’ve been hard. 

    By the way:
    - You have used developer history as a reason to say “They will nerf her [Polaris]” going as far as telling folks to make other plans. 
    - Others (myself included) have used developer history to say “I don’t THINK Okoye will be nerfed”.
    - To counter all those historical examples you say we can’t trust history because the developers have done unprecedented things before! We know nothing!
    - Doesn’t that kind of negate the first point?  I don’t quite understand. 
    Right, that's actually a really good point, and I should've made it myself.  The people I'm arguing with aren't posting here.  (A bunch of them are reading though!) 

    Take a look through the rosters at the top of brackets, and the rosters of the top PvP alliances, and you'll generally see the same thing: a 550 Okoye and a bunch of 450s.  After last week you might also see a 500+ SW/Colossus/Knull.  There are 4* players who've done the same thing with Polaris: I have seen lvl370 Polaris teams in PvP with a handful of other champion 4* on their rosters.

    That's the "conventional wisdom" I'm arguing against, those are the Charlie Browns, and there are a ton of them.  Those folks haven't learned the lessons that all the rest of us have, and that you've stated yourself up there.  The game changes, and those changes are outside our control and are sometimes unpredictable. 

    I saw all the people with 550 Gambits quit -- people who thought the devs could not possibly nerf a character that they spent so much money for, and I don't want to see that happen again.
  • TheRiddler
    TheRiddler Posts: 291 Mover and Shaker
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    The issue for me is that Okoye has been around for 3+ years now at this point. That is 3 years that you have given people to chase a character. I'm sure there are lower level players who spent a ton of time and their limited resources to get her at champed levels.
    I guess in my eyes if they were gonna nerf the character then it should have been done long time ago at this point. Instead we have seen her constantly pushed in special release stores, anniversary vaults, special sales bundles etc.
    A nerf at this point would seem to say "We had no problem constantly pushing and selling you a overpowered character for 3 years but now she is too strong and we would rather you chase somebody new."
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    The issue for me is that Okoye has been around for 3+ years now at this point. That is 3 years that you have given people to chase a character. I'm sure there are lower level players who spent a ton of time and their limited resources to get her at champed levels.
    I guess in my eyes if they were gonna nerf the character then it should have been done long time ago at this point. Instead we have seen her constantly pushed in special release stores, anniversary vaults, special sales bundles etc.
    A nerf at this point would seem to say "We had no problem constantly pushing and selling you a overpowered character for 3 years but now she is too strong and we would rather you chase somebody new."
    Here's the question: how sure are you?  Sure enough to bet $10,000 cash on buying into Okoye?  Sure enough to spend 1-2 years of hoarded resources getting her to 550?  Because there are *hundreds* of players in the top alliances right now who have made that bet, and hundreds more are waiting for her to show up in a store again so they can join them.  I'm not exaggerating these numbers.

    This. Is. Dangerous.  "Go all in for Okoye" might not be conventional wisdom on this forum, or among the group of players who post here, but it's absolutely the conventional wisdom among players who populate the alliances that win everything.

    It's a worse situation for the game than Gambit ever was.  Because of Okoye's role and her abilities, it's unlikely that she'll ever be replaced in the meta, but what happens if they introduce a hard counter to her that makes her unplayable?  There's hundreds of competitive rosters out there that have a 550 Okoye and no backup plan.  What are they going to do?

    Maybe the chance of a nerf is low but it's not zero, and if that 1% or 2% or 5% chance hits it's going to be catastrophic, because people have been operating as if there is no chance at all. 

    That's all I've been trying to say.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,926 Chairperson of the Boards
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    I appreciate the clarification. That makes more sense. My guess is that if they create some hard counter to Okoye, she still won’t be unusable. She’ll still kill it in PVE and people will still get use out of her there. What will happen, is everyone will chase that hard counter and spend tons on it (which is the point I was making earlier about how you can still make money off Okoye as she is). 

    Because as you pointed out, a nerf to Okoye would he “catastrophic” to the playerbase, I can’t see them doing it without a really good reason. I think after the whole OML debacle the developers learned, and all the subsequent nerfs (Gambit, Bishop, Cap) were done after HEAVY player feedback (like every survey, several forum posts a day on page 1, etc.) complaining about how they’re ruining the game. Okoye has not gotten that level of vitriol. Not even close. In fact most appreciate her speeding up a game that’s quite grindy. Like you said, none of us really know why they do what they do. But if I had to bet, I’d say she gets left alone. 
  • entrailbucket
    entrailbucket Posts: 5,045 Chairperson of the Boards
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    You have more faith in them than I do! 

    I guess everybody else does too, because I'd never go all in, on anyone -- it's too risky, and I've still got nerf PTSD from years of decisions that seemed catastrophic when they were made.