***** The Hulk (Immortal) *****

Vhailorx

wymtime said:

Vhailorx said:

So he does at least 5.5k passive aoe damage, ~8k ally damage, and 32k for 7ap without condition.  That's all brutal (in a good way).

He also does 17.8k self damage every time he makes a match and revives around 19k health.  So isn't he going to be cycling an awful lot? (Does his death cycle reshuffle the player team's order?  If he is in front and dies does he go to the back before reviving, this exposing a teammate?).

I don't see him playing very for most players.  Too much self damage.  But for those willing to buy health packs, he seems like a pretty clear member of the meta.  For everyone else, he seems likely to be a terror in cl10 and on pvp defense.

Yet another member of the "characters that require heavy healthpack usage are just better in mpq (at least when released)". The heir to sentry and thanos.

He automatically comes back to life and does more match damage to tank.  This means he will not require health packs since you want him to die in a match.  An ideal starting health is just enough to survive self damage from one enemy match.

for the ally damage 8K is easily done in a match and is also why he will be best paired with true healers or characters that revive.  Doom, Loki, Phoenix, OML, Okoye, DD, or SS. Or characters with really high health like BRB.   For PVP you might use the loaner 3* to start off with but that will be ok below 500 points.  The 3* is normally dead weight anyway

edited: I am also really excited about this character an how unique he is.  I also think there will be some decent teams to help avoid the health pack suck.

He will kill himself every round at max self damage (his revive health equals his self damage, and his match damage will make him tank), so that is a minimum of 8k ally damage every turn (at 450).  Very few true healers in the game can sustain that for long.  I think hulk may very be the new meta (especially paired with okoye), but I don't think it will be a particularly fun meta at all.  He will be irritating to fight against in PVP (if not outright devastating if you don't stunlock him), and not exactly fun to use on offense has he chews threw your roster with abandon.

RickOShay

Vhailorx said:

wymtime said:

Vhailorx said:

He will kill himself every round at max self damage (his revive health equals his self damage, and his match damage will make him tank), so that is a minimum of 8k ally damage every turn (at 450).  Very few true healers in the game can sustain that for long.  I think hulk may very be the new meta (especially paired with okoye), but I don't think it will be a particularly fun meta at all.  He will be irritating to fight against in PVP (if not outright devastating if you don't stunlock him), and not exactly fun to use on offense has he chews threw your roster with abandon.

It sounds like you are increasing his self-match-damage at the same percent as his match-damage increase upon revival. I don't believe that to be the case.
It looks like the self damage is a static value, regardless of increased match damage.

Vhailorx

RickOShay said:

Vhailorx said:

wymtime said:

Vhailorx said:

He will kill himself every round at max self damage (his revive health equals his self damage, and his match damage will make him tank), so that is a minimum of 8k ally damage every turn (at 450).  Very few true healers in the game can sustain that for long.  I think hulk may very be the new meta (especially paired with okoye), but I don't think it will be a particularly fun meta at all.  He will be irritating to fight against in PVP (if not outright devastating if you don't stunlock him), and not exactly fun to use on offense has he chews threw your roster with abandon.

It sounds like you are increasing his self-match-damage at the same percent as his match-damage increase upon revival. I don't believe that to be the case.
It looks like the self damage is a static value, regardless of increased match damage.

Hmm, re-reading it looks like he will do a max of ~2500 self damage at 450, v. ~18k health at revive.  so he will last a bit longer (9 turns less whatever incoming damage he takes in that time).  So enough that the best true healers (like dd, GED, or thor fueled okoye) should be able to keep pace with him.  That's better.  but I am still concerned.  We have never had anyone like him in the game, so drawing early conclusions is a bit risky, but I am still thinking that the most likely outcome is that he will be a meta character who does things no one else can do, and has very significant drawbacks that dedicated players can ignore with pure spending (this would hardly be a new phenomen for MPQ, and that type of character is a proven money maker for demi/d3). 

It will be very interesting to see how he plays with the stunner bros in pvp.  his self damage will make him harder to pair with them (maybe a good thing?), but they will also be among the best ways to fight him on offense since he is really someone that needs to be stunlocked asap.  So he makes them less useful on defense, but even more essential on offense? 

spidyjedi84

Well, we finally got a Hulk that's going to be terrifying to play against...

Bad

If he is someone that needs to be stunlocked on defense, that proves his value. In a team where there are others who need to be stunlocked too, that is my definition of a strong team.
If the damage he deals to allies is unavoidable like carnage5, he is sure a health pack eater really interesting for d3.
And about challenge nodes, what I would truly want is that some nodes that are not challenge could be changed. Like gorgon,  or those recent with just one power.

bluewolf

Bad said:

If he is someone that needs to be stunlocked on defense, that proves his value. In a team where there are others who need to be stunlocked too, that is my definition of a strong team.
If the damage he deals to allies is unavoidable like carnage5, he is sure a health pack eater really interesting for d3.
And about challenge nodes, what I would truly want is that some nodes that are not challenge could be changed. Like gorgon,  or those recent with just one power.

You may be one of the only players who want the easier CNs turned up. 

I am fine if not every single CN is a monster.  Plus until IH, the options have been kind of limited in terms of team composition, partly out of a desire to make the CNs fit the events they are part of. 

You could probably build a CN that is nearly impossible at 650 with IH and a good partner like DD. 

TPF Alexis

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I'm wondering what the maximum green-on-the-board team for him is going to be. 5torm at the all 5* tier? Profe$$or X only adds 1 to the board on his purple, but the passive cascade potential is probably not to be ignored here.

Chuck adds three of whatever colour you select to the board, not one. But how well they work together depends heavily on whether or not his damage reduction works against the own team damage. Without that, he's got a pretty skimpy health pool.

Vhailorx

bluewolf said:

Bad said:

If he is someone that needs to be stunlocked on defense, that proves his value. In a team where there are others who need to be stunlocked too, that is my definition of a strong team.
If the damage he deals to allies is unavoidable like carnage5, he is sure a health pack eater really interesting for d3.
And about challenge nodes, what I would truly want is that some nodes that are not challenge could be changed. Like gorgon,  or those recent with just one power.

You may be one of the only players who want the easier CNs turned up. 

I am fine if not every single CN is a monster.  Plus until IH, the options have been kind of limited in terms of team composition, partly out of a desire to make the CNs fit the events they are part of. 

You could probably build a CN that is nearly impossible at 650 with IH and a good partner like DD. 

No, that team is stun-lockable.  The hard challenge nodes are the ones that kill you by turn 2 or 3, so it's hard to get any of the good stunlock engines going (at least without 550s).  something like gritty + IH?  At 650 that team will be doing 25k a turn or so to start and will have IH's immense damage lurking in the background, just 7ap or too much green on the board away.  So who do you stun first and how do you survive to get a second stun out? 

Bad

Vhailorx said:

bluewolf said:

Bad said:

If he is someone that needs to be stunlocked on defense, that proves his value. In a team where there are others who need to be stunlocked too, that is my definition of a strong team.
If the damage he deals to allies is unavoidable like carnage5, he is sure a health pack eater really interesting for d3.
And about challenge nodes, what I would truly want is that some nodes that are not challenge could be changed. Like gorgon,  or those recent with just one power.

You may be one of the only players who want the easier CNs turned up. 

I am fine if not every single CN is a monster.  Plus until IH, the options have been kind of limited in terms of team composition, partly out of a desire to make the CNs fit the events they are part of. 

You could probably build a CN that is nearly impossible at 650 with IH and a good partner like DD. 

No, that team is stun-lockable.  The hard challenge nodes are the ones that kill you by turn 2 or 3, so it's hard to get any of the good stunlock engines going.  something like gritty + IH?  At 650 that team will be doing 25k a turn or so to start with.  and who do you stun first

I want to cross blades with silver surfer, IH and Vulture. Now thats entertaining for real.
If its called a challenge then it should be a challenge.
Not just quick clearing for to enter quick ranking.
Truth is that I felt really frustated with the final challenge node of spiderman 2099 event. That should be an epic challenge with your all roster buffed. And it was a joke.

ThaRoadWarrior

TPF Alexis said:

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I'm wondering what the maximum green-on-the-board team for him is going to be. 5torm at the all 5* tier? Profe$$or X only adds 1 to the board on his purple, but the passive cascade potential is probably not to be ignored here.

Chuck adds three of whatever colour you select to the board, not one. But how well they work together depends heavily on whether or not his damage reduction works against the own team damage. Without that, he's got a pretty skimpy health pool.

I must have been thinking of his match-N extra tile thing; maybe he would be good at keeping green down then. I'll see if i can test the self-harm damage reduction with some of the others who do it. Carbage is probably the easiest example.

*Edit* can confirm, Profe$$or X does not reduce friendly fire from Carbage’s Blood Feud

IceIX

y4747 said:

IceIX said:

Hulk cares not for your Stuns, or Airbornes, or Invisibilities. He'll come back after being Downed with anything affecting him.

thanks for the answer, @IceIX ! a follow-up - what if he fires his red to win the fight, but has less health than the red self-damage (which is guaranteed after a single revive)? i assume he will stay downed at match end, because victory will proc before his black passive? if so, that'd bring some calculation to when to fire his red...

He'll deal the damage and kill the opponent, ending the round. He'll only take the self damage part if that isn't the end of the battle.

Daredevil217

DyingLegend said:

Another Hulk
Self Damage 
Own team damage. 

No thanks , pass

Another Hulk? This is in my opinion the first 5* Hulk in the game. 5* Banner is a joke as most Hulks in the game have been. 

Self-damage? Do you understand that you want him taking damage because true to the character, he gets stronger the more damage he takes. 

Own team damage?  While yes he isn’t as versatile as an Okoye or Professor, where you can team him with just anyone, we have enough true healers (yay for another Daredevil partner!) to make the team damage less of an issue. 

Passing on Hulk means passing on a character that will clearly be meta level good, with that 32K 7AP nuke and Okoye-able passive green. 

While he’s good now, there is also potential for exploitation with characters released in the future.  He is (and probably will be) the only character released that can truly never die unless left for last. Reason being, if played together you’d have to get both down to near dead and AOE both. I can’t see the developers being that cruel. But this is an extremely good character that people might regret passing on.

IceIX said:

He'll deal the damage and kill the opponent, ending the round. He'll only take the self damage part if that isn't the end of the battle.

That’s cool. Rogue’s power siphon works the same way. She doesn’t take self-damage if it KOs the last opponent. If I was a Hulk fan I’d be ecstatic right now. 

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I must have been thinking of his match-N extra tile thing; maybe he would be good at keeping green down then. I'll see if i can test the self-harm damage reduction with some of the others who do it. Carbage is probably the easiest example.

*Edit* can confirm, Profe$$or X does not reduce friendly fire from Carbage’s Blood Feud

Carnage doesn’t deal team damage, he “steals health”. However I just tried 3* Thanos and Gambit. Prof took the full damage. 

ThaRoadWarrior

I think that's a verbiage thing; i believe it still counts as "self-harm," where Carbage does that damage, then receives some health as separate steps in the order of operations. Even so, your experiment aligns with my expectations. 

tonypq

Haven't put a lot of thought into color overlap or lack of rainbow coverage, but what do you think about pairing Hulk with 5Thanos 5Carnage ?

Seems like a nasty team to face. Hulk, Thanos and Carnage contribute self damage to hurt the Hulk, then Thanos will kill or stun enemies in the process. Carnage will also put enemy special tiles on board to further speed Hulks black. Not sure what the AI would do as far as using Hulk or Carnages red, but with the player in control seems like a fun team.

Vhailorx

Bad said:

Vhailorx said:

bluewolf said:

Bad said:

If he is someone that needs to be stunlocked on defense, that proves his value. In a team where there are others who need to be stunlocked too, that is my definition of a strong team.
If the damage he deals to allies is unavoidable like carnage5, he is sure a health pack eater really interesting for d3.
And about challenge nodes, what I would truly want is that some nodes that are not challenge could be changed. Like gorgon,  or those recent with just one power.

You may be one of the only players who want the easier CNs turned up. 

I am fine if not every single CN is a monster.  Plus until IH, the options have been kind of limited in terms of team composition, partly out of a desire to make the CNs fit the events they are part of. 

You could probably build a CN that is nearly impossible at 650 with IH and a good partner like DD. 

No, that team is stun-lockable.  The hard challenge nodes are the ones that kill you by turn 2 or 3, so it's hard to get any of the good stunlock engines going.  something like gritty + IH?  At 650 that team will be doing 25k a turn or so to start with.  and who do you stun first

I want to cross blades with silver surfer, IH and Vulture. Now thats entertaining for real.
If its called a challenge then it should be a challenge.
Not just quick clearing for to enter quick ranking.
Truth is that I felt really frustated with the final challenge node of spiderman 2099 event. That should be an epic challenge with your all roster buffed. And it was a joke.

That's a little too 'git gud, bruh!' for me. Demi could make a new character with the passive power: "At the start beginning of a turn, if the match is now yet over, this character wins the match."

That would certainly be challenging.  It would not, however, be a good challenge. 

DyingLegend

Daredevil217 said:

DyingLegend said:

Another Hulk
Self Damage 
Own team damage. 

No thanks , pass

Another Hulk? This is in my opinion the first 5* Hulk in the game. 5* Banner is a joke as most Hulks in the game have been. 

Self-damage? Do you understand that you want him taking damage because true to the character, he gets stronger the more damage he takes. 

Own team damage?  While yes he isn’t as versatile as an Okoye or Professor, where you can team him with just anyone, we have enough true healers (yay for another Daredevil partner!) to make the team damage less of an issue. 

Passing on Hulk means passing on a character that will clearly be meta level good, with that 32K 7AP nuke and Okoye-able passive green. 

While he’s good now, there is also potential for exploitation with characters released in the future.  He is (and probably will be) the only character released that can truly never die unless left for last. Reason being, if played together you’d have to get both down to near dead and AOE both. I can’t see the developers being that cruel. But this is an extremely good character that people might regret passing on.

IceIX said:

He'll deal the damage and kill the opponent, ending the round. He'll only take the self damage part if that isn't the end of the battle.

That’s cool. Rogue’s power siphon works the same way. She doesn’t take self-damage if it KOs the last opponent. If I was a Hulk fan I’d be ecstatic right now. 

ThaRoadWarrior said:

I must have been thinking of his match-N extra tile thing; maybe he would be good at keeping green down then. I'll see if i can test the self-harm damage reduction with some of the others who do it. Carbage is probably the easiest example.

*Edit* can confirm, Profe$$or X does not reduce friendly fire from Carbage’s Blood Feud

Carnage doesn’t deal team damage, he “steals health”. However I just tried 3* Thanos and Gambit. Prof took the full damage. 

As I respect your viewpoint, im
still not excited for him. 
Its still a meh for me. Maybe it's the dilution, maybe it's the shards, maybe it's just the way the game is lately. I'm just not overly ecstatic. 

jackstar0

Not wild about GR and Doom in the store, so may have to sit until he hits LLs.

Does look like a hoot and a half though.

RickOShay

I just know I'm going to find myself avoiding green matches to help the chances of getting his AoE at the beginning of my next turn.  Thankfully I'm trained in avoiding green matches due to playing Thorkoye so often..

Anyway, let's look at our chances of getting that AoE and roughly how often.

Immortal Hulk level 450  5/3/5:
Starting boards will usually have around 9 green . [ 64 tile game board  /  7 colors ~= 9 ]   We've been told that TU have a slightly lower chance to drop than the 6 colored tiles. 

Assuming your starting board has 9 green (I fully expect to have just 3...), 

Opening Move:  Plan to avoid green and obviously prioritize Red matches if possible. 
Enemy Turn: Hopefully they match a non-green color, and here we go:

1st turn: Hulk converts 1 tile to green and you now have 10 green present (or more if some dropped in).
He then destroys 2 green tiles, deals 5490 AoE damage, and destroys 2 green tiles which will add their damage to the target (~1700).
Then you get to make a match. You still have 8 green on the board at minimum here. 
Enemy turn: My enemies will certainly now find a way to match green, but if yours don't, you'll get the AoE again at the start of the next turn. Let's say the did get a green match-3 though.

Following turn: You're down to 5 green on the board at worst, and Hulk adds 1 again. Keep in mind, when every match-3 drops in 3 tiles from the top, each tile has around 1/7 chance of being green.. So for all 3 dropping in It's somewhere around 3/7 odds to get 1 green (kinda). 

RickOShay

Long story shor... longer,  I think this AoE is going to be a bit too easy to earn offensively. The AI however, will not fair as well for you at getting AoE's on defense of course. It will be pursuing green matches with standard priority among other team colors. 

So do you bring along a teammate with an active green power on offense at all? Maybe we shouldn't bother. I think it would be hard to get as much damage potential out of an active ability. It would take away from Hulk's potential for team damage if you make green matches at all. 

This Hulk sounds great for the most part. 
The only problem is that he is Very ill-equipped to deal with the current BRB Kitty meta. They will ruin an IHulk team due to their blue and red CD's activating on any AoE (even at -1 damage). 
And enemy BRB could benefit from that 1x added  green more than he loses from Hulk's passive of removing 2. This is because player-controlled Bill will be prioritizing and removing green matches whenever available, keeping the board at <8 quite often. 

wymtime

Vhailorx said:

wymtime said:

Vhailorx said:

So he does at least 5.5k passive aoe damage, ~8k ally damage, and 32k for 7ap without condition.  That's all brutal (in a good way).

He also does 17.8k self damage every time he makes a match and revives around 19k health.  So isn't he going to be cycling an awful lot? (Does his death cycle reshuffle the player team's order?  If he is in front and dies does he go to the back before reviving, this exposing a teammate?).

I don't see him playing very for most players.  Too much self damage.  But for those willing to buy health packs, he seems like a pretty clear member of the meta.  For everyone else, he seems likely to be a terror in cl10 and on pvp defense.

Yet another member of the "characters that require heavy healthpack usage are just better in mpq (at least when released)". The heir to sentry and thanos.

He automatically comes back to life and does more match damage to tank.  This means he will not require health packs since you want him to die in a match.  An ideal starting health is just enough to survive self damage from one enemy match.

for the ally damage 8K is easily done in a match and is also why he will be best paired with true healers or characters that revive.  Doom, Loki, Phoenix, OML, Okoye, DD, or SS. Or characters with really high health like BRB.   For PVP you might use the loaner 3* to start off with but that will be ok below 500 points.  The 3* is normally dead weight anyway

edited: I am also really excited about this character an how unique he is.  I also think there will be some decent teams to help avoid the health pack suck.

He will kill himself every round at max self damage (his revive health equals his self damage, and his match damage will make him tank), so that is a minimum of 8k ally damage every turn (at 450).  Very few true healers in the game can sustain that for long.  I think hulk may very be the new meta (especially paired with okoye), but I don't think it will be a particularly fun meta at all.  He will be irritating to fight against in PVP (if not outright devastating if you don't stunlock him), and not exactly fun to use on offense has he chews threw your roster with abandon.

His self damage on matches remains constant so he won’t keep dying every turn.  If you look at Doom he will fully heal 8k with 2 enemy match’s of yellow or Black.  With DD you will get more strike tiles bringing him back up to above 1/2 health.  Okoye can do a ton of self healing.

i don’t think he will he as awful in PVP As you think .  I could be wrong but I think he is more offensive power than a defensive menace.