New Feature in R191: Shards

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  • Bryan Lambert
    Bryan Lambert Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
    A tale of two organics...

    3*...  Organics probable (not rage inducing)
    4*...  Organics Rare, but still possible (could be annoying in some rare instances, but not likely).
    5*...  Organics almost impossible, depending on Feeder status.  The real crime with this tier will be unannounced feeders hitting.  Give a month notice COOL!  Give two days notice NOT COOL.
    This entire “devs can’t win” conversation conveniently ignores Latest 5’s, where there is no dilution and organically covering a 5 in a single series of consecutive pulls has been the optimal strategy for years - and the situation where both the wasted shard problem and the reduced cover rate hurts the most.
  • Bryan Lambert
    Bryan Lambert Posts: 234 Tile Toppler
    Also, the devs clearly could win. All they need to do is introduce a change to the in-game economy that’s a net positive for all players. Sure, there are lots of understandable reasons why they wouldn’t want to do that, becuase that’s the freemium world, but on those occasions when they’ve chosen to do so, they’ve caught very little flak.

    It’s moves like this, moves that are basically lateral shifts in the ingame economy with benefits for some, detriments to others, and mostly little change for everyone, that lead to conversations like this. Especially because they invariably (and understandably, but disingenuously) promote these as net positives for everyone, or as an “attempt to address dilution” when it’s really replacing the old, inadequate attempt to address dilution with a new, differently inadequate attempt to address dilution.
  • pheregas
    pheregas Posts: 1,721 Chairperson of the Boards
    Yeah.  I conveniently left out Latests on purpose.  As an exclusive Latest puller, there are slim chances that I'm going to get an unusable cover (I'm looking at you Chuck at 1/10/2).  I always get 13 covers for any character from Latest...  That being said...  There are often saved covers involved that leaves that 5 unchampable.

    I was then at the mercy of BH odds, which were fairly bad for me (it was 300+ pulls since my last 5* BH, which is of course cancelled now with the new shard system).  Now with Shards, I'll definitely be making very slow progress towards that 13th cover.  Hela, GE Doom, and Rescue are all contenders at the moment.

    My only two complaints with the shard system are (1) that they kept the "odds" the same (which is really just a lateral move, so it isn't much of a complaint).  Increasing cover output should have been implemented, IMHO.  And (2) that if a feeder ever does get released, if I'm working on that particular character, those shards are potentially "lost."  Sure, I'll still have them, but is it worth continuing to Shard that 5 just to cash in those shard points?   Does it invoke the fallacy of lost time/effort?  Either way, it's going to feel weird just being handed a cover and needing to dismiss all the effort I put into gaining the shards that I did.

    Three answers to that:  

    a) The targeted 5 had 12 covers, with saved covers.  Unlikely to continue shargeting that 5 with a new feeder announcement 
    b) The targeted 5 had 12 covers, with no saved covers.  Depending on how close.  Maybe continue for that LT reward upon completion.
    c) The targeted 5 was less than 12 covers, with or without saved covers.  May or may not continue depending on feeder payout.

    I am not, however, saying that 5's should not get feeders.  Every classic 5 should have a feeder attached to them the moment that they leave Latest.  There is zero reason not to do that.  A lot of shard-waste complaints could be instantly address by doing what others have already suggested.  1) Roll out all classic feeders at once.  or 2) make shard points character non-specific, but tier specific.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,527 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hey guys - quick question - are these Shard stores the same for all or randomised for each player? Only reason I ask is I am seeing 5* Hawkeye in there at present for anyboby interested. Sadly no use to me with my 0/0/1 but if the same for all players might be of interest to some.
  • Ed_Dragonrider
    Ed_Dragonrider Posts: 593 Critical Contributor
    DAZ0273 said:
    Hey guys - quick question - are these Shard stores the same for all or randomised for each player? Only reason I ask is I am seeing 5* Hawkeye in there at present for anyboby interested. Sadly no use to me with my 0/0/1 but if the same for all players might be of interest to some.
    They're random for each player. You may see Hawkeye, someone else has Green Goblin etc...
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,527 Chairperson of the Boards
    Ed_Dragonrider said:
    DAZ0273 said:
    Hey guys - quick question - are these Shard stores the same for all or randomised for each player? Only reason I ask is I am seeing 5* Hawkeye in there at present for anyboby interested. Sadly no use to me with my 0/0/1 but if the same for all players might be of interest to some.
    They're random for each player. You may see Hawkeye, someone else has Green Goblin etc...
    Well if anybody had a Jessica Jones and wants to trade! I figured it was random, many thanks for the confirmation Mr. Dragonrider. 😎
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,025 Chairperson of the Boards
    Not only is it random; but it doesn’t cycle through everyone. So I’ve had Thanos 2-3x in the store (my highest champ) and yet to have a Parker (my targeted hero). It wouldn’t be MPQ without more RNG!
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,527 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    Not only is it random; but it doesn’t cycle through everyone. So I’ve had Thanos 2-3x in the store (my highest champ) and yet to have a Parker (my targeted hero). It wouldn’t be MPQ without more RNG!
    Wow, that is actually pretty annoying!
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,945 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Not only is it random; but it doesn’t cycle through everyone. So I’ve had Thanos 2-3x in the store (my highest champ) and yet to have a Parker (my targeted hero). It wouldn’t be MPQ without more RNG!
    Wow, that is actually pretty annoying!
    1/35 or 2.8% chance twice a day if you have a specific person you want.

    It's not that unlikely that you could be waiting a month to see a specific 5.
  • RickOShay
    RickOShay Posts: 452 Mover and Shaker
    If only they offered a 20 HP 'spin' option to reset the daily shard offers randomly. 
    I'd slot That machine. 
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 4,025 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited November 2019
    When it comes to combating dilution, for those saying “just add more rewards!”, I don’t envy the developers in this place. 

    If they refuse to add more resources while adding more stuff to chase (Dilution), it may scare off a lot of new players. The 4* and 5* mountains are almost impossible to climb. We are talking YEARS of grinding out this game for hours a day to earn a drop in the expanding ocean.  It’s disheartening to see so little progress. 

    However if they just pump the economy with more rewards, those who can stay on top of new releases, will cover everything even easier, they won’t have those “struggle points”, and don’t have incentive to spend. To be fair I consider myself one of those; I’ve only ever been a $2 a month player and have fared fine in terms of “keeping up” ever since transitioning to 5* land. Since Daredevil, I’ve only missed Wasp/Rescue but it was by choice and in doing so have been able to chase better classic 5s. It’s also those end game players who are winning all the good rewards making it even EASIER to progress. 

    So if it were me, I would try to make the game more friendly for newer players (increase rewards) since many in the end game can “keep up” as is. But I understand it isn’t an easy problem to solve. 

    Edit: it might be helpful for their data to ask WHY people spend. I know tons who will spend even if they don’t NEED to (no choke point) as well as those who refuse to due to perceived bad customer experience, even if they are at a choke point (me currently with Hero Points). 
  • crackninja
    crackninja Posts: 444 Mover and Shaker
    OJSP said:
    If a 5* character has some shards already while a feeder is announced for them, wouldn't it be better to continue until we get the cover? Considering we'd get a steady stream of covers from the 4* feeder, I'd argue we should continue until we eliminate any left over shards. Then, we could move on to the next one.

    I understand it's going to be a very slow process, but recycling a 4* or building a duplicate 4* is an option if we play long enough and we will get more 5* covers from the champion rewards. That one cover for the 5000 iso from lvl 452 reward could be what gets us faster to the next LT.
    What I think is ultimately going to happen is we will.be getting some quantity of shards for all 5*'s from rewards.  So we will get value from these shards eventually.  It will feel like a waste to see shards we purchased or got from opening tokens get lost in the ocean so to speak, but it's a sunk cost at that point and for me it will really just depend on how close to getting that cover I am.  Most likely I'll cut bait, because my one and only goal at this point is to champ them all.
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    DAZ0273 said:

    We all need to stop pretending that our comments have an outsized influence on what the developers do.

    I would normally agree with this 100%, the only thing that makes me think that the Developers do use this forum for enhanced customer feedback was the end of "Tapping". I couldn't even have told you what tapping was without the forum and I have been playing this game nigh on 4 years. I mean if the Forum represents a tiny percentage of active players then the percentage affected by tapping must be barely a blip. Yet it was addressed. Maybe this was on their radar anyway, dunno but there was a fairly active and regular campaign on here against it.

    They also do the surveys and get feedback that way.  I don't think we can know how much we, the forum posters, influence them without being told.
  • ElReyFelix
    ElReyFelix Posts: 105 Tile Toppler
    Daredevil217 said:
    Not only is it random; but it doesn’t cycle through everyone. So I’ve had Thanos 2-3x in the store (my highest champ) and yet to have a Parker (my targeted hero). It wouldn’t be MPQ without more RNG!
    @Daredevil217 I'm assuming you're referring to 5*'s? So you've already had Thanos 5* come up multiple times for shard purchase?
  • Ed_Dragonrider
    Ed_Dragonrider Posts: 593 Critical Contributor
    I also had Hela come around at least twice in the shard store... so it's definitely random.
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    OJSP said:

    My personal feeling is, this type of people won't be satisfied with anything anyway. People can be hard to please or overly critical for many reasons. Some people can even find tiny faults in everything (so they could be very good at certain jobs).

    Having said that, feedback is feedback, as long as it's constructive and reasonable, the developers could still use their ideas. Being too negative would just put them off from reading past the first few words.
    Bingo.  Thanks for this!
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    edited November 2019
    Daredevil217 said:

    To the people saying, "we now have control! Waste is 100% preventable!" that was true under the old system as well.  Old system = just don't BH someone with 5 colors. New system = just don't ever pull Classics, spend in pop-up stores, or target anyone with a feeder.  Both are restrictive. 

    Just because this fits your playstyle it doesn't mean other people's reactions to this are invalid.  I feel like all feedback needs to be heard.

    HoundofShadow said:

    If the players here can't behave rationally and choose to behave like it's the end of the world, then I think it's much better for the developer to keep quiet and post only when they have the full details of updates to come, rather than giving partial updates.

    I think it's a mentality and attitude issue.
    Also, I need to point this out because it goes on far too much.  I don't see anyone here acting like the world is ending.  Many people are upset, but within proper context.  We all know "this is just a game" and I don't see anyone equating their anger toward these changes with the world ending.  You keep throwing out "the players assume this", "the players say that", "the players behave like this", when you don't really know.  And these hyperbolic statements like "choose to behave like the world is ending" actually add very little to the productivity of these threads.  If you are going to make these global, dismissive statements about "players", then please give some context as to where your own assumptions are coming from.

    Aside from these types of assertions about others, all I'm seeing is feedback and suggestions.  If it "feels good" we call it "positive feedback" if it "feels bad" we call it "negative feedback", "criticism", or even "attacking".  But at the end of the day it is all just feedback.  If it goes beyond that, that's what we have Mods for.

    As Hound likes to point out, the devs have data and metrics that none of us players do.  It is possible I am in fact in the minority.  Maybe I'm one of few 5* players who thinks Bishop is a problem, one of the only players who thinks communication around here is awful,  who wanted supports to be reasonably attainable, who likes character re-balances, pop-up stores, Bonus Heroes, and all the other cool things The rockett mentioned, that players seemingly loved that were taken away.  It could be just me and a handful of others.  Or... maybe the ways in which they collect their data often misses things.  Or maybe they think they are solving a problem for the majority of the players, but don't realize that in doing so, they create new ones.  So to all the people who defend the developers, say they feel sorry for them, and tell other players how they feel, why they are frustrated, and what they are assuming, it would be way more productive to say what YOU like and dislike, so they have that data rather trying to invalidate the opinions of others.  MY assumption is the developers are full-on adults who don't need people holding their hands or fragilizing them.
    OMG YES! Thank you!!!

    Bryan Lambert said:

    It’s moves like this, moves that are basically lateral shifts in the ingame economy with benefits for some, detriments to others, and mostly little change for everyone, that lead to conversations like this. Especially because they invariably (and understandably, but disingenuously) promote these as net positives for everyone, or as an “attempt to address dilution” when it’s really replacing the old, inadequate attempt to address dilution with a new, differently inadequate attempt to address dilution.
    Bingo.  Then it warrants feedback.
  • Chameleon
    Chameleon Posts: 183 Tile Toppler
    Daredevil217 said:

    So if it were me, I would try to make the game more friendly for newer players (increase rewards) since many in the end game can “keep up” as is. But I understand it isn’t an easy problem to solve. 

    Edit: it might be helpful for their data to ask WHY people spend. I know tons who will spend even if they don’t NEED to (no choke point) as well as those who refuse to due to perceived bad customer experience, even if they are at a choke point (me currently with Hero Points). 
    I completely agree.  I know it would inevitably make some players unhappy but I have been saying, for a while now, (elsewhere, mind you) that newer players should get more free roster spots.  I help mentor a lot of newer players (2 months to 2 years of playing) and they are constantly faced with who to roster and who to sell.  The amount of HP they would need to purchase to gain all the needed roster spots is vastly higher than veterans ever had to.

    Currently, in PvP, players are locked out of lower clearance levels as they progress.  If this was done in PvE then players in lower CLs could be rewarded with more HP to combat this.

    There may even be other ways to do this.  Perhaps I am too far off-topic for this thread.  Is there another one where it would fit better?  I don't read them all.

    We need the newer players to keep this game going, especially at the current rate of retirement.

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