***** Carnage (Prophet of Knull) *****

RickOShay

We are often wrong, even with the numbers provided (as some have noted). 
ME Hulk, Agent Venom, and others were pretty well bashed prior to release - and shortly thereafter - even with their damage & specifics provided. They turned out to be quite solid after all. 

Now for this ??character, it's going to be dicey to guess what the damage numbers 'should' be. 
I'm quite certain his green will simply give you the damage for the value of the tiles destroyed. This is weak by itself but gives the chance for AP cascades and strong-ish attack tiles. It should cost 8 or less IMO.

The damage on Red is where I believe the critical judgement will be placed. For only 6 AP this still needs to hit for at least 7000 to the target.
I'm definitely hoping for more, but with the potential for valuable team damage (and the likelihood this is based on 4* Carnage) it's quite likely to be a bit weak in comparison to others.
However, since it always steals health from allies, it may be closer to 8K maybe 9K target damage (or more, to be fair). As a complete guess, the Team damage component is probably around the 3K mark.
Note: 4* Carnage red at 10 AP does not add additional damage to the target, just to the other enemies.  

Comparatively, 6 or 7 red AP abilities:
Rescue: 6 for around 10,000 dmg - ~1600 per AP (potential for 3rd hit for 2100 per AP avg)  
Parker:  7 for around 14,000 dmg - ~2000 per AP (potential for huge critical tile damage) 
Surfer:   7 for around   9,500 dmg - ~1400 per AP (potential value in AP gains from charged tiles)

*Prof $:  8 purple + choose red    - 2680 per AP (potential for additional match)
               8 purple + choose green - 1300 TEAM dmg per AP (very high for team-dmg per AP)

BuzzedLightbeer

Daredevil217 said:

BuzzedLightbeer said:

Daredevil217 and jp1, thanks so much!  I guess I will try to remain patient a little longer.  I get that it makes sense, just in case this new character does end up being better than initially advertised.

Also, though rare, we have gotten pre-release buffs (and nerfs). So there’s a small chance they realize 1 strike and 1 attack is too little and they up it before he’s released. Or maybe make the heal true heal. Something. Because as it stands now he seems very meh. 

This is true too, and something I also wouldn’t have thought about otherwise.  It will be interesting to see what the numbers end up being, for sure.

RickOShay

As I think more about this characters Black ability, I believe it would have been way more interesting to auto-swap (randomly move) up to 2 enemy special tiles every turn when they have more than 1.

If this is Carnage for example, his tendrils would be moving things around chaotically when the enemy has specials out. It's not too late dev's! 

Sm0keyJ0e

I am going to assume this character's best partner is Kitty, and that we finally have a 5* to go against the plethora of Kitty/Rocket teams out there. I'm also not going to count the third toon and pretend it's one of the 90% of PVP events where there is an essential. So just "in a vacuum" 2-on-2 speculation here. It appears Carnage (we'll go with that's who it is) is not an X-men, so you're going to need 4+ specials for Kitty to do her thing.

Carnage/Kitty vs. Kitty/Rocket (I think it's important to note Carnage should always be on the left in this team)

Turn 1: nothing happens other than enemy Rocket has thrown out 7 strikes. The obvious first move here is to try and match a Rocket strike, which is generally not too hard. You now have 1 attack tile. Enemy Kitty has started Circuit Breaker.
Turn 2: most likely there are >3 enemy specials still, so Carnage makes a match (do we get AP? This is rather important and unknown it seems) and creates a strike tile. You now have an attack and a strike tile out. Enemy Kitty has overwritten one of your specials, so you have one. Your Circuit Breaker has started.
Turn 3: I'm assuming at this point, another enemy strike has somehow been removed, at minimum by Circuit Breaker. It would still leave the enemy with 4+ strikes, and they're getting beefy now, so Carnage makes a match and creates a strike. I think it's also safe that at this point, between enemy moves and your own Carnage moves, you've lost a special tile. If Carnage matches it I think you get an attack? Also unknown, but let's assume yes. So likely still three specials, which your Kitty isn't doing anything with. Enemy Circuit Breaker has reduced your SAP's to two.
Turn 4: Enemy Gritty team is really rolling now and those strikes have been buffed for 4 turns. You're taking quite a bit of damage just from matches, not to mention maybe even someone is downed from some unfortunate cascades. If you've manage to whittle Gritty's strikes down to <4 (including your Circuit Breaker), bad news: Carnage is now creating enemy attacks for her to double dip those now powerful strikes and she has more stuff to keep the auto-buff rolling. This isn't feeling too good. Enemy Circuit Breaker is keeping you below the Kitty buff threshold. Meanwhile, Carnage creating attacks for the enemy 1. Keeps their Kitty buff-train rolling, and 2. completely prevents your Circuit Breaker from every going off.

I realize there are a lot of hypotheticals in the above scenario, but in an "average" match I don't see how the pair of Carnage/Kitty is going to come out ahead of enemy Kitty/Rocket.

Lastly, I don't know who else is an intended partner for Carnage. It's great we finally have a passive special tile creator in 5* land, but he doesn't seem to have an ideal fit anywhere. Sure, in pick 3 PVP's there's probably more going on here, but that can be said with so many other toons as well, and it's really where the 4* meta toons take over and push the 5* guys out. Not sure this one upsets that apple cart, but like others have pointed out, I'll wait and see and maybe there are some final tweaks still to occur since we only got a "skeletal" update.

Edit: included Circuit Breaker for both teams as part of the turn-by-turn analysis.

RickOShay

Agreed there needed to be more with this character to help to combat Gritty teams. 

However, starting on Turn 3 we can't forget that your Kitty is now running her purple repeater, effectively removing one random enemy special every other turn, hopefully getting after the high level strikes.

I realize that in my case, she will only be removing the low level attack tiles..

Sm0keyJ0e

RickOShay said:

Agreed there needed to be more with this character to help to combat Gritty teams. 

However, starting on Turn 3 we can't forget that your Kitty is now running her purple repeater, effectively removing one random enemy special ever other turn, hopefully getting after the high level strikes.

Yes, that is a good point, and enemy Kitty is doing the same one turn before you, making it even harder to get your Kitty buff train rolling.

Edit: Also, you will never get your Circuit Breaker to actually go off.

jp1

Is Gritty even a legitimate problem for 5* player any longer? I’ll hit a Kitty team without a second thought. I think it’s time to start addressing other areas of the game.

Sm0keyJ0e

jp1 said:

Is Gritty even a legitimate problem for 5* player any longer? I’ll hit a Kitty team without a second thought. I think it’s time to start addressing other areas of the game.

I'm not sure it ever was for 5* players, but definitely an issue for 4* and below players, many of whom have pointed out their struggles on this forum. If Carnage was meant to be their savior, I'm not sure he's gonna be based on what we know thus far...

St_Bernadus

I think Kitty players were hoping for a true 5 star partner though. OML and Phoenix weren't it and both seem better than this one.

Daredevil217

Sm0keyJ0e said:

I am going to assume this character's best partner is Kitty, and that we finally have a 5* to go against the plethora of Kitty/Rocket teams out there. I'm also not going to count the third toon and pretend it's one of the 90% of PVP events where there is an essential. So just "in a vacuum" 2-on-2 speculation here. It appears Carnage (we'll go with that's who it is) is not an X-men, so you're going to need 4+ specials for Kitty to do her thing.

Carnage/Kitty vs. Kitty/Rocket (I think it's important to note Carnage should always be on the left in this team)

Turn 1: nothing happens other than enemy Rocket has thrown out 7 strikes. The obvious first move here is to try and match a Rocket strike, which is generally not too hard. You now have 1 attack tile. Enemy Kitty has started Circuit Breaker.
Turn 2: most likely there are >3 enemy specials still, so Carnage makes a match (do we get AP? This is rather important and unknown it seems) and creates a strike tile. You now have an attack and a strike tile out. Enemy Kitty has overwritten one of your specials, so you have one. Your Circuit Breaker has started.
Turn 3: I'm assuming at this point, another enemy strike has somehow been removed, at minimum by Circuit Breaker. It would still leave the enemy with 4+ strikes, and they're getting beefy now, so Carnage makes a match and creates a strike. I think it's also safe that at this point, between enemy moves and your own Carnage moves, you've lost a special tile. If Carnage matches it I think you get an attack? Also unknown, but let's assume yes. So likely still three specials, which your Kitty isn't doing anything with. Enemy Circuit Breaker has reduced your SAP's to two.
Turn 4: Enemy Gritty team is really rolling now and those strikes have been buffed for 4 turns. You're taking quite a bit of damage just from matches, not to mention maybe even someone is downed from some unfortunate cascades. If you've manage to whittle Gritty's strikes down to <4 (including your Circuit Breaker), bad news: Carnage is now creating enemy attacks for her to double dip those now powerful strikes and she has more stuff to keep the auto-buff rolling. This isn't feeling too good. Enemy Circuit Breaker is keeping you below the Kitty buff threshold. Meanwhile, Carnage creating attacks for the enemy 1. Keeps their Kitty buff-train rolling, and 2. completely prevents your Circuit Breaker from every going off.

I realize there are a lot of hypotheticals in the above scenario, but in an "average" match I don't see how the pair of Carnage/Kitty is going to come out ahead of enemy Kitty/Rocket.

Lastly, I don't know who else is an intended partner for Carnage. It's great we finally have a passive special tile creator in 5* land, but he doesn't seem to have an ideal fit anywhere. Sure, in pick 3 PVP's there's probably more going on here, but that can be said with so many other toons as well, and it's really where the 4* meta toons take over and push the 5* guys out. Not sure this one upsets that apple cart, but like others have pointed out, I'll wait and see and maybe there are some final tweaks still to occur since we only got a "skeletal" update.

Edit: included Circuit Breaker for both teams as part of the turn-by-turn analysis.

I agree with most of this. However, there is a good chance that turn 1 you match a strike tile (giving you an attack), turn 2 between the free match and your own match you nab another strike or two giving you 1-2 attacks, plus the free strike. Basically the more Grocket strikes you match, the earlier you get the buff going. You also have the red nuke that the other team doesn’t have for matching 6 red. 

Still. The big thing you point out is that in the “best case scenario” you are still feeding her attacks. Black Suit and Thorkoye are both better options as Grittu counters. I don’t see where this character fits. Seems like they would have been a better 4* than a 5. 

Seasick Pirate

Will it be “Maximum” or “Absolute?”
Probably the more current, so let’s hope the artwork looks good for it.

Venomous

If it were Carnage, wouldn't it have the Sinister Six affiliation like 4 star Carnage does? Still possible they just didn't add it though. 

zodiac339

Seasick Pirate said:

Will it be “Maximum” or “Absolute?”
Probably the more current, so let’s hope the artwork looks good for it.

How about Carnage (Maximummer!). Broly gets taken over by the Carnage Symbiote after being transported to the Marvel universe. With no Kakarot to focus on, he turns his rage upon everything around him.

TPF Alexis

jp1 said:

Is Gritty even a legitimate problem for 5* player any longer? I’ll hit a Kitty team without a second thought. I think it’s time to start addressing other areas of the game.

Depends on which 5* they have. Thorkoye certainly wrecks Grockitty, as does BSSM, but not everyone in 5* land has them available. With Kitty, Cable, Storm, Widow, and Okoye, I haven't actually found a great combo to run against them. I can def take them, but it's not a team I jump on without hesitation, and is much more likely to need health packs than hitting, say, Thorkoye or Panthos.

wymtime

Daredevil217 said:

Sm0keyJ0e said:

I am going to assume this character's best partner is Kitty, and that we finally have a 5* to go against the plethora of Kitty/Rocket teams out there. I'm also not going to count the third toon and pretend it's one of the 90% of PVP events where there is an essential. So just "in a vacuum" 2-on-2 speculation here. It appears Carnage (we'll go with that's who it is) is not an X-men, so you're going to need 4+ specials for Kitty to do her thing.

Carnage/Kitty vs. Kitty/Rocket (I think it's important to note Carnage should always be on the left in this team)

Turn 1: nothing happens other than enemy Rocket has thrown out 7 strikes. The obvious first move here is to try and match a Rocket strike, which is generally not too hard. You now have 1 attack tile. Enemy Kitty has started Circuit Breaker.
Turn 2: most likely there are >3 enemy specials still, so Carnage makes a match (do we get AP? This is rather important and unknown it seems) and creates a strike tile. You now have an attack and a strike tile out. Enemy Kitty has overwritten one of your specials, so you have one. Your Circuit Breaker has started.
Turn 3: I'm assuming at this point, another enemy strike has somehow been removed, at minimum by Circuit Breaker. It would still leave the enemy with 4+ strikes, and they're getting beefy now, so Carnage makes a match and creates a strike. I think it's also safe that at this point, between enemy moves and your own Carnage moves, you've lost a special tile. If Carnage matches it I think you get an attack? Also unknown, but let's assume yes. So likely still three specials, which your Kitty isn't doing anything with. Enemy Circuit Breaker has reduced your SAP's to two.
Turn 4: Enemy Gritty team is really rolling now and those strikes have been buffed for 4 turns. You're taking quite a bit of damage just from matches, not to mention maybe even someone is downed from some unfortunate cascades. If you've manage to whittle Gritty's strikes down to <4 (including your Circuit Breaker), bad news: Carnage is now creating enemy attacks for her to double dip those now powerful strikes and she has more stuff to keep the auto-buff rolling. This isn't feeling too good. Enemy Circuit Breaker is keeping you below the Kitty buff threshold. Meanwhile, Carnage creating attacks for the enemy 1. Keeps their Kitty buff-train rolling, and 2. completely prevents your Circuit Breaker from every going off.

I realize there are a lot of hypotheticals in the above scenario, but in an "average" match I don't see how the pair of Carnage/Kitty is going to come out ahead of enemy Kitty/Rocket.

Lastly, I don't know who else is an intended partner for Carnage. It's great we finally have a passive special tile creator in 5* land, but he doesn't seem to have an ideal fit anywhere. Sure, in pick 3 PVP's there's probably more going on here, but that can be said with so many other toons as well, and it's really where the 4* meta toons take over and push the 5* guys out. Not sure this one upsets that apple cart, but like others have pointed out, I'll wait and see and maybe there are some final tweaks still to occur since we only got a "skeletal" update.

Edit: included Circuit Breaker for both teams as part of the turn-by-turn analysis.

I agree with most of this. However, there is a good chance that turn 1 you match a strike tile (giving you an attack), turn 2 between the free match and your own match you nab another strike or two giving you 1-2 attacks, plus the free strike. Basically the more Grocket strikes you match, the earlier you get the buff going. You also have the red nuke that the other team doesn’t have for matching 6 red. 

Still. The big thing you point out is that in the “best case scenario” you are still feeding her attacks. Black Suit and Thorkoye are both better options as Grittu counters. I don’t see where this character fits. Seems like they would have been a better 4* than a 5. 

This character will fit in with 5* DD depending on how big his strike tiles and attack lies will be.   If the strike tiles are strong and the red does big enough damage these two will do work early in PVP.  With the attack tiles you could see 13k+ damage per turn by round 4.  Remember a 1/2 health DD will be dropping strike tiles worth 800 damage per tun double dipping on attack tiles.

on defense kitty or doom would be better pairings but this character does have potential if the strike tiles are strong enough and if the red hits hard enough.

shardwick

Sm0keyJ0e said:

jp1 said:

Is Gritty even a legitimate problem for 5* player any longer? I’ll hit a Kitty team without a second thought. I think it’s time to start addressing other areas of the game.

I'm not sure it ever was for 5* players, but definitely an issue for 4* and below players, many of whom have pointed out their struggles on this forum. If Carnage was meant to be their savior, I'm not sure he's gonna be based on what we know thus far...

In 4* land Kitty isn't even that big of an issue for me. I'll usually go with Rocket, Medusa and Bishop to counter. Worst case scenario is I get a bad board with enemy tiles spread out and hardly any purples to collect for Medusa and then the enemy hits a big cascade.

ThaRoadWarrior

I actively attack Gritty teams now with GE Doom/Chavez and a +black/green boost in pick 2 pvp. Bishop still gets the skip in simulator though.

the way this green is worded, any match/destruction of an enemy special creates one for you, so I expect this character will go well with Sabretooth.

spidyjedi84

In the world of Bishop teams as far as the eye can see, I don't hesitate attacking Gritty teams without a Bishop anymore. Especially if they're just a low level Kitty. Make those glass jaw floaters regret basing their climbs around a weak character.

Daredevil217

spidyjedi84 said:

In the world of Bishop teams as far as the eye can see, I don't hesitate attacking Gritty teams without a Bishop anymore. Especially if they're just a low level Kitty. Make those glass jaw floaters regret basing their climbs around a weak character.

While I agree that Gritty isn’t a “problem”, I do see them more than any other combo in pick 2 still. So a character somewhat designed to counter them and who plays well against them is a nice addition to the roster. Problem is this character doesn’t do that particularly well though it seems it may have been part of their design niche. 

wymtime said:
This character will fit in with 5* DD depending on how big his strike tiles and attack lies will be.   If the strike tiles are strong and the red does big enough damage these two will do work early in PVP.  With the attack tiles you could see 13k+ damage per turn by round 4.  Remember a 1/2 health DD will be dropping strike tiles worth 800 damage per tun double dipping on attack tiles.

on defense kitty or doom would be better pairings but this character does have potential if the strike tiles are strong enough and if the red hits hard enough.

I’m not sure if you’re aware, but I mentioned Daredevil and Doom as potential partners on page 1. They will definitely make for “fun teams” but I don’t really see him moving the needle for most players. I think most could skip and not bat an eye. 

wymtime

Daredevil217 said:

spidyjedi84 said:

In the world of Bishop teams as far as the eye can see, I don't hesitate attacking Gritty teams without a Bishop anymore. Especially if they're just a low level Kitty. Make those glass jaw floaters regret basing their climbs around a weak character.

While I agree that Gritty isn’t a “problem”, I do see them more than any other combo in pick 2 still. So a character somewhat designed to counter them and who plays well against them is a nice addition to the roster. Problem is this character doesn’t do that particularly well though it seems it may have been part of their design niche. 

wymtime said:
This character will fit in with 5* DD depending on how big his strike tiles and attack lies will be.   If the strike tiles are strong and the red does big enough damage these two will do work early in PVP.  With the attack tiles you could see 13k+ damage per turn by round 4.  Remember a 1/2 health DD will be dropping strike tiles worth 800 damage per tun double dipping on attack tiles.

on defense kitty or doom would be better pairings but this character does have potential if the strike tiles are strong enough and if the red hits hard enough.

I’m not sure if you’re aware, but I mentioned Daredevil and Doom as potential partners on page 1. They will definitely make for “fun teams” but I don’t really see him moving the needle for most players. I think most could skip and not bat an eye. 

I did see your post about DD, I just think too many people are looking at Kitty Pride and rocket and groot and not looking at what this character could be good with.  One issue with DD is he can be slow and needs a partner to do some damage while he tanks.  Carnage will allow DD to tank some colors but also drop back below 50% health.  To keep going.  I think this pair will be viable up to around 800 then need to switch to Thor Okoye or gritty kitty.  In my mind that is a win in this meta and I think can be more reliable in climbing than gritty.  Gritty is mainly for defense to float, but with Carnage’s health pool he should save on some health packs and DD will be a great offensively partner and either Doom, JJ, or Kitty will provide defensive deterants.  

Yes I am assuming it is carnage