Bishop sucking the fun out of the game

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  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    bluewolf said:
    Warbringa said:
    bluewolf said:

    All that said, he does impact the game in a negative way for 5* players.  It's pretty much as simple as that.  5* players are almost certainly the group that contains the people who spend the most on the game, so maybe some attention should be paid to our concerns
    I don't know if this is true.  You may wish to believe that but I think if it was and the devs & publishers saw a large monetary impact they would change it.  Face it, whales are one of the primary monetary drivers in the game.  Whales probably have maxed champed Bishops and actually don't mind it.  You also are not considering that the vast majority of players are not 5*.  Even if 5* players spend more per player (which may be true), that doesn't mean they are the driving revenue source of the game. I think many 5* players are able to accumulate enough resources in game that they don't have to actually spend money in many cases. I know that I am in that camp.  I would love to spend more money on the game....but that is a different discussion.
    It may be that whales are perfectly happy with Bishop.  Some probably are.

    I am somewhat convinced that the majority of money in the game comes from newer players vs 5* players. I grant you that.

    I note that you only picked on that part of things.  I have run across many people who are 5* players who hate Bishop, especially during the boosted weeks or the "pick any 3" PVPs where he gets lots of play.

    I stand by my point that having vets in the 5 tier engaged with the game helps the game.  Whether they are directly spending money or not (a lot of them do, even when it becomes unnecessary for success), they provide guidance and advice that is extremely valuable to the developers in terms of shepherding along motivated players.

    There are a lot of 5* players who are upset about Bishop being in the game the way he is.  He mostly operates for a lot of players as a "don't need to burn HP on shields" tool.

    If the game shut down tomorrow, or I had to quit, or whatever, part of my feelings would include joy at never seeing him in PVP again.  He depresses engagement at the high end of the playerbase with PVP when he becomes more viable (like in pick-3 PVP events, or when boosted) which seems like a bad thing for the game.
    I agree with you that he is a problem for 5* PvP, the only part of the post I had something to say that was different was the monetary portion.  I should have clarified that in my initial post, my apologies.  I just don't think the history of the devs/publishers shows they will make a change unless they believe it is hurting their bottom line.  For all we know, revenue may have increased since Bishop has been introduced....which means no nerf is coming.  Unfortunately the 5* PvP players may not be a big enough portion of revenue generation to influence them.  The other view, noted before in other posts, as that with Gambit they may simply waiting for various reasons.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    Warbringa said:
    bluewolf said: 
    Warbringa said:
    bluewolf said:

    All that said, he does impact the game in a negative way for 5* players.  It's pretty much as simple as that.  5* players are almost certainly the group that contains the people who spend the most on the game, so maybe some attention should be paid to our concerns
    I don't know if this is true.  You may wish to believe that but I think if it was and the devs & publishers saw a large monetary impact they would change it.  Face it, whales are one of the primary monetary drivers in the game.  Whales probably have maxed champed Bishops and actually don't mind it.  You also are not considering that the vast majority of players are not 5*.  Even if 5* players spend more per player (which may be true), that doesn't mean they are the driving revenue source of the game. I think many 5* players are able to accumulate enough resources in game that they don't have to actually spend money in many cases. I know that I am in that camp.  I would love to spend more money on the game....but that is a different discussion.
    It may be that whales are perfectly happy with Bishop.  Some probably are.

    I am somewhat convinced that the majority of money in the game comes from newer players vs 5* players. I grant you that.

    I note that you only picked on that part of things.  I have run across many people who are 5* players who hate Bishop, especially during the boosted weeks or the "pick any 3" PVPs where he gets lots of play.

    I stand by my point that having vets in the 5 tier engaged with the game helps the game.  Whether they are directly spending money or not (a lot of them do, even when it becomes unnecessary for success), they provide guidance and advice that is extremely valuable to the developers in terms of shepherding along motivated players.

    There are a lot of 5* players who are upset about Bishop being in the game the way he is.  He mostly operates for a lot of players as a "don't need to burn HP on shields" tool.

    If the game shut down tomorrow, or I had to quit, or whatever, part of my feelings would include joy at never seeing him in PVP again.  He depresses engagement at the high end of the playerbase with PVP when he becomes more viable (like in pick-3 PVP events, or when boosted) which seems like a bad thing for the game.
    I agree with you that he is a problem for 5* PvP, the only part of the post I had something to say that was different was the monetary portion.  I should have clarified that in my initial post, my apologies.  I just don't think the history of the devs/publishers shows they will make a change unless they believe it is hurting their bottom line.  For all we know, revenue may have increased since Bishop has been introduced....which means no nerf is coming.  Unfortunately the 5* PvP players may not be a big enough portion of revenue generation to influence them.  The other view, noted before in other posts, as that with Gambit they may simply waiting for various reasons.
    I'd agree with assessment if a Bishop bundle was thrown our way. If he is such a money maker, a bundle would be money in the bank.

    The reality is that the devs are just has checkout as the long term player base.
  • Nikita-K
    Nikita-K Posts: 33 Just Dropped In
    I never cared about Bishop, ran into him unprepared in PVE Sim and was surprised how fast he is. The next turn he was downed by my 5Ock even though he stunned my other characters 5trange and Phoenix. I was a bit lucky to get an early tentacle but I still don't think I have to care about him. (Ock 455, Phoenix 454, Strange 453)
  • Blackriver
    Blackriver Posts: 1 Just Dropped In

    Reading Bishop's powers, it is clear a design problem.

    Bishop is a mutant, so his powers are biological, so physically speaking he cannot hit you with more power than the cumulative blows he received.

    If he receives as much damage he should not attack AND gain blue tiles. The power should be an active one, and the the player should chose between do damage or stun.

  • Rhipf
    Rhipf Posts: 295 Mover and Shaker
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/915009#Comment_915009

    But if you go withe the new "godpower" theory does it really matter how much damage he takes? Wouldn't it just be a matter of how much of that "godpower" he can tap into?

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/915151#Comment_915151

    Bishop absorbs energy.

    In the comic book world this works out pretty well since you have lots of characters who shoot energy at each other (Havok, for instance).

    However, he doesn't do anything to stop/absorb physical blows. So in a fight with, say, Captain America, Cap might clean his clock (Bishop is probably a decent hand-to-hand fighter, but come on. This is Cap!). Shield tossed, Bishop down. Spidey would also waltz all over the One-Man-Blue-Man-Group.

    Okoye would clock him with her spear and he'd be out cold. Thor's Hammer would lay him out flat. Etc.

    Obviously MPQ doesn't have any way to modify dmg as being physically or energy based, so Mr. Bishop just absorbs everything.

    Anyway, trying to make character abilities fit their canon is just an exercise in frustration, as years of playing the game have taught us all too well.

  • bowla33
    bowla33 Posts: 203 Tile Toppler

    #nerfbishopstill

  • TPF Alexis
    TPF Alexis Posts: 3,826 Chairperson of the Boards
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/915154#Comment_915154

    IIRC, it's something he only learned how to do relatively recently, but he can absorb and redirect the kinetic energy from physical hits as well.

  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/comment/915165#Comment_915165

    Ha, should have known. MPQ's power creep got nothin' on comic book writers trying to put their spin on a years-old character.

  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2020
    bluewolf said:

    Bishop absorbs energy.

    In the comic book world this works out pretty well since you have lots of characters who shoot energy at each other (Havok, for instance).

    However, he doesn't do anything to stop/absorb physical blows. So in a fight with, say, Captain America, Cap might clean his clock (Bishop is probably a decent hand-to-hand fighter, but come on. This is Cap!). Shield tossed, Bishop down. Spidey would also waltz all over the One-Man-Blue-Man-Group.

    Okoye would clock him with her spear and he'd be out cold. Thor's Hammer would lay him out flat. Etc.

    Obviously MPQ doesn't have any way to modify dmg as being physically or energy based, so Mr. Bishop just absorbs everything.

    Anyway, trying to make character abilities fit their canon is just an exercise in frustration, as years of playing the game have taught us all too well.

    Umm, at the risk of being moderately nerdy, how are differentiating "energy" from "physical blow."? Energy is just energy, whether kinetic or electro-magnetic.  It just does work, whether that is pushing an object into motion, or heating it up.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Bishops actual real weakness was against projectiles. One of the Criminals from the future who Bishop had incarcerated Mountjoy in the past specifically used a crossbow because this could harm Bishop and he couldn't absorb energy from the hits. Knifes and bullets also (although the latter may be on dodgy ground) - basically anything that can penetrate his skin. So Wolverine could presumably one shot kill Bishop but Cap's Shield might actually power him up from the kinetic damage. Bishops power dies not have an "off switch" so he can literally absorb energy at any time without consciously wishing to do so but with the provisions that it must be directed at him - so he is not like Havok who absorbs Cosmic radiation from background sources. Geek!
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,819 Chairperson of the Boards
    Vhailorx said:
    bluewolf said:

    Bishop absorbs energy.

    In the comic book world this works out pretty well since you have lots of characters who shoot energy at each other (Havok, for instance).

    However, he doesn't do anything to stop/absorb physical blows. So in a fight with, say, Captain America, Cap might clean his clock (Bishop is probably a decent hand-to-hand fighter, but come on. This is Cap!). Shield tossed, Bishop down. Spidey would also waltz all over the One-Man-Blue-Man-Group.

    Okoye would clock him with her spear and he'd be out cold. Thor's Hammer would lay him out flat. Etc.

    Obviously MPQ doesn't have any way to modify dmg as being physically or energy based, so Mr. Bishop just absorbs everything.

    Anyway, trying to make character abilities fit their canon is just an exercise in frustration, as years of playing the game have taught us all too well.

    Umm, at the risk of being moderately nerdy, how are differentiating "energy" from "physical blow."? Energy is just energy, whether kinetic or electro-magnetic.  It just does work, whether that is pushing an object into motion, or heating it up.
    I guess I was skimming a bit too fast last time I read about him.  He is able to absorb kinetic energy but was much less efficient at doing that vs other forms of energy.  Although now he is learning to do that as well, so I guess we should be calling him Super-Bishop as he is currently being described as nigh-invulnerable.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    The other thing to consider is whether Bishop's power also functions like Sebastian Shaw. Shaw basically has the exact same power as Bishop but instead of redirecting energy he converts energy expended against him in to enhanced strength and speed. But in a battle with Selene, the Black Queen she exposed that his weakness is against "passive attacks" (so god help him in MPQ!) - I.e. attacks that do not directly strike him or impact him - in the battle in question she encases him in stone and he can not absorb the energy fast enough to overcome being crushed or smothered (although of course a few panels later he busts himself free thus disproving that this would have killed him. CLAREMONT!!!!) So presumably if say Selene did the same to Bishop she could suffocate him without him being able to do much about it unless he was already supercharged up. I also *think* neither can absorb psychic energy, so Pro X should be able to wipe the floor with them.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    Vhailorx said:
    bluewolf said:

    Bishop absorbs energy.

    In the comic book world this works out pretty well since you have lots of characters who shoot energy at each other (Havok, for instance).

    However, he doesn't do anything to stop/absorb physical blows. So in a fight with, say, Captain America, Cap might clean his clock (Bishop is probably a decent hand-to-hand fighter, but come on. This is Cap!). Shield tossed, Bishop down. Spidey would also waltz all over the One-Man-Blue-Man-Group.

    Okoye would clock him with her spear and he'd be out cold. Thor's Hammer would lay him out flat. Etc.

    Obviously MPQ doesn't have any way to modify dmg as being physically or energy based, so Mr. Bishop just absorbs everything.

    Anyway, trying to make character abilities fit their canon is just an exercise in frustration, as years of playing the game have taught us all too well.

    Umm, at the risk of being moderately nerdy, how are differentiating "energy" from "physical blow."? Energy is just energy, whether kinetic or electro-magnetic.  It just does work, whether that is pushing an object into motion, or heating it up.
    I guess I was skimming a bit too fast last time I read about him.  He is able to absorb kinetic energy but was much less efficient at doing that vs other forms of energy.  Although now he is learning to do that as well, so I guess we should be calling him Super-Bishop as he is currently being described as nigh-invulnerable.
    This is quite true, apart from the things I mention we learn in Uncanny X-Men 300 that Bishop can absorb energy even when he is in the equivalent of a "stun" state - he does this when Magneto has the X-Men trapped in a "magnetic force" thing (Burble, blah Marvel Comics Physics) and he is able to absorb the energy being used to contain him do he can bust free. I assume though that if you tied Bishop up using some rope or whatever then that would be him buggered. This brings me to the conclusion that the ultimate Bishop counter will be The Trapster and his glue gun. The end of the  reign of Bishop's terror is in the hands of a glue gun people.
  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,275 Chairperson of the Boards
    Also Spider-Man should be able to easily beat that  punk - Spidey,'s webbing would be a perfect "passive" attack.
  • MegaBee
    MegaBee Posts: 1,044 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    bluewolf said:
    Vhailorx said:
    bluewolf said:

    Bishop absorbs energy.

    In the comic book world this works out pretty well since you have lots of characters who shoot energy at each other (Havok, for instance).

    However, he doesn't do anything to stop/absorb physical blows. So in a fight with, say, Captain America, Cap might clean his clock (Bishop is probably a decent hand-to-hand fighter, but come on. This is Cap!). Shield tossed, Bishop down. Spidey would also waltz all over the One-Man-Blue-Man-Group.

    Okoye would clock him with her spear and he'd be out cold. Thor's Hammer would lay him out flat. Etc.

    Obviously MPQ doesn't have any way to modify dmg as being physically or energy based, so Mr. Bishop just absorbs everything.

    Anyway, trying to make character abilities fit their canon is just an exercise in frustration, as years of playing the game have taught us all too well.

    Umm, at the risk of being moderately nerdy, how are differentiating "energy" from "physical blow."? Energy is just energy, whether kinetic or electro-magnetic.  It just does work, whether that is pushing an object into motion, or heating it up.
    I guess I was skimming a bit too fast last time I read about him.  He is able to absorb kinetic energy but was much less efficient at doing that vs other forms of energy.  Although now he is learning to do that as well, so I guess we should be calling him Super-Bishop as he is currently being described as nigh-invulnerable.
    This is quite true, apart from the things I mention we learn in Uncanny X-Men 300 that Bishop can absorb energy even when he is in the equivalent of a "stun" state - he does this when Magneto has the X-Men trapped in a "magnetic force" thing (Burble, blah Marvel Comics Physics) and he is able to absorb the energy being used to contain him do he can bust free. I assume though that if you tied Bishop up using some rope or whatever then that would be him buggered. This brings me to the conclusion that the ultimate Bishop counter will be The Trapster and his glue gun. The end of the  reign of Bishop's terror is in the hands of a glue gun people.
    Paste Pot Pete for the win!
  • Jacklag
    Jacklag Posts: 316 Mover and Shaker
    edited February 2020
    Like I said in many other threads, I am in favor of a soft nerf to Bishop, not a true nerf. What I mean by this is not making any change to Bishop himself, but creating a new 5* character or buffing an older one to act as a hard counter. I was expecting Havoc would be that counter, as in the comics he has the power to drain energy from others. Oh well.

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