Bishop sucking the fun out of the game

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Comments

  • DAZ0273
    DAZ0273 Posts: 10,092 Chairperson of the Boards
    Xair said:
    pvp is the reason for the debate if bishop wasn't in pvp, no one would care how op he is.
    trying to drag the debate to reasons out of the pvp scope is a distractor.

    i think the real problem is, that people don't understand how emotional a nerf can be.

    when i just started playing seriously gambit just entered the latest store. i invested a ton of time and money to get him upgraded, and i was completely reliant on him for my gameplay.

    i was not really aware of the heated debate in this forum around him, and i was completely taken by surprise when the nerfs came, and made him irrelevant, with zero compensation. i felt completely disappointed and i literally left the game for almost a year.

    only recently i decided to come back to the game, and now i see this same thing happening again.

    so i get it, some of the players that have bishop, absolutely love him, they feel dependant on what he has done to their game play, and they can't imagine the game without him. they refuse to even entertain critic and compare him to any other strong char, in order to defend their position.

    i get it, and i get that this debate is not really meant to convince any one, because everyone have their own opinion and it will remain as it is.

    the truth for me is that i can't beat teams with bishop in pvp. he is like a complete closed off defense, he is stronger than a shield cause at least a shield doesn't block my path. ever since bishop started popping up, i can't advance in pvp. i have to lose on purpose to get lower rank, in order to proceed.
    against Groot & kitty i have 50% chance of winning if i am lucky, but against with bishop i have 0% chance of winning.

    weather bishop generates more money to the game or not, bishop will get nerfed i am sure, this debate won't really make much difference.
    he is just too broken.
    the real problem is how will the dev team nerf him without causing players to be too upset, or even quit the game. 

    We should qualify that actually this is mostly about SHIELD sim, not all PVP. You can't run Grittyshop in most PVP. "The wall of Bishop" is not really elsewhere as far as I can tell and most complaints here are about Bishop + Gritty.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2019
    Even if I fumble in a match against Thor and triggered his half health before downing him, I don't fear it activating. I can still beat him even if he gets two maybe even three turns with it. Even if he fires off a power because of it.

    I fear Bishop's mechanic just seeing him as an opponent. 
  • DyingLegend
    DyingLegend Posts: 1,203 Chairperson of the Boards
    Tinfoil hat theory:

    Bishop makes you use health packs whether using him to tank or going against him. Thus no Nerf in immediate future 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    DAZ0273 said:
    Xair said:
    pvp is the reason for the debate if bishop wasn't in pvp, no one would care how op he is.
    trying to drag the debate to reasons out of the pvp scope is a distractor.

    i think the real problem is, that people don't understand how emotional a nerf can be.

    when i just started playing seriously gambit just entered the latest store. i invested a ton of time and money to get him upgraded, and i was completely reliant on him for my gameplay.

    i was not really aware of the heated debate in this forum around him, and i was completely taken by surprise when the nerfs came, and made him irrelevant, with zero compensation. i felt completely disappointed and i literally left the game for almost a year.

    only recently i decided to come back to the game, and now i see this same thing happening again.

    so i get it, some of the players that have bishop, absolutely love him, they feel dependant on what he has done to their game play, and they can't imagine the game without him. they refuse to even entertain critic and compare him to any other strong char, in order to defend their position.

    i get it, and i get that this debate is not really meant to convince any one, because everyone have their own opinion and it will remain as it is.

    the truth for me is that i can't beat teams with bishop in pvp. he is like a complete closed off defense, he is stronger than a shield cause at least a shield doesn't block my path. ever since bishop started popping up, i can't advance in pvp. i have to lose on purpose to get lower rank, in order to proceed.
    against Groot & kitty i have 50% chance of winning if i am lucky, but against with bishop i have 0% chance of winning.

    weather bishop generates more money to the game or not, bishop will get nerfed i am sure, this debate won't really make much difference.
    he is just too broken.
    the real problem is how will the dev team nerf him without causing players to be too upset, or even quit the game. 

    We should qualify that actually this is mostly about SHIELD sim, not all PVP. You can't run Grittyshop in most PVP. "The wall of Bishop" is not really elsewhere as far as I can tell and most complaints here are about Bishop + Gritty.
    I see bishop even unbuffed in regular pvp's. This is not about grittyshop. It's about bishop and what he does all on his own.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    I don't mean to minimize the fact Bishop has a broken character set but do want to add some perspective/reality to why the devs may not care.  I don't have the statistics (but would love to see them) but an educated guess of mine is that PvE is probably a much larger share of the game play throughout the entire player base than PvP is.  Better rewards and less stress for most players.  Therefore in reality, the devs don't put Bishop as a huge problem because he isn't a PvE breaking character and the vast majority of the player base isn't impacted.  Even within PvP, only with 5* characters is he broken.  Dwindle that player base even further since only a portion of the 5* PvP players (those that play PvP a lot) are the ones facing the pain.  According to the forums you would think is a huge part of the player base but in reality is a very small group of players in the overall scope of the game.  

    For example, I am in a casual alliance that I would say is mostly veteran players.  About half of the players have 5* rosters and no one has ever even mentioned the Bishop problem in alliance chat.  Never.  I am not denying it is a problem but if you want to know why the devs don't have it high on their priority list, this is a major reason.  The other reason is that unless they feel he is impacting revenue streams (which he may actually help due to his health pack drain) that is a even bigger reason there may not be any change. 

    Problems and complaints that do come up in our alliance chat in our alliance chat....dilution, RNG, Shield Training required characters, supports (and the lack thereof), lackluster rewards for certain events or packages offered for purchase.  
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Warbringa said:
    I don't mean to minimize the fact Bishop has a broken character set but do want to add some perspective/reality to why the devs may not care.  I don't have the statistics (but would love to see them) but an educated guess of mine is that PvE is probably a much larger share of the game play throughout the entire player base than PvP is.  Better rewards and less stress for most players.  Therefore in reality, the devs don't put Bishop as a huge problem because he isn't a PvE breaking character and the vast majority of the player base isn't impacted.  Even within PvP, only with 5* characters is he broken.  Dwindle that player base even further since only a portion of the 5* PvP players (those that play PvP a lot) are the ones facing the pain.  According to the forums you would think is a huge part of the player base but in reality is a very small group of players in the overall scope of the game.  

    For example, I am in a casual alliance that I would say is mostly veteran players.  About half of the players have 5* rosters and no one has ever even mentioned the Bishop problem in alliance chat.  Never.  I am not denying it is a problem but if you want to know why the devs don't have it high on their priority list, this is a major reason.  The other reason is that unless they feel he is impacting revenue streams (which he may actually help due to his health pack drain) that is a even bigger reason there may not be any change. 

    Problems and complaints that do come up in our alliance chat in our alliance chat....dilution, RNG, Shield Training required characters, supports (and the lack thereof), lackluster rewards for certain events or packages offered for purchase.  
    Put a feeler out. Ask them what characters they avoid on defense. Dont mention bishop at all.
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2019
    tiomono said:

    I see bishop even unbuffed in regular pvp's. This is not about grittyshop. It's about bishop and what he does all on his own.
    Agreed. I don't fear Gritty teams with Bishop because of Kitty & R4G, I fear them solely because of Bishop.

    I hit every Gritty + 3rd team on Simulator I see.

    I skip every Bishop team, even when he's not with Gritty.

    Kitty is not the problem.
    R4G is not the problem.
    Gritty and Bishop are NOT the problem.

    Bishop alone is the problem.

    The Devs won't do anything because we're the Nerf Bishop thread is at 26 27 pages now, the longest thread I've seen here bar the "Worst of MPQ" & "Best of MPQ" threads, and they've not chimed in.

    Someone said on here (or elsewhere) that their silence speaks for itself.

    It is impossible for the Devs to not be aware of how frustrated the 5-star players are with Bishop.

    Have they said anything? Have they acknowledged our concerns?

    Their silence speaks volumes.

    Someone high up on the Demi/D3 team is laughing all the way to the bank because more people are buying more HP to buy more health packs, and they know it's because of Bishop.

    Bishop will not be nerfed while he's making money for Demi/D3.

    To borrow an infamous quote from my WoW days, Bishop is working as intended.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    You must have missed out Gambit nerf thread. That went on for almost 40 pages.

    Edit: here's the thread

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/68924/please-nerf-5-gambit/p1

    They did say something on discord: No nerf at the moment.

    If anything, wait for new character to be out  to counter him. Hopefully, it happens next Thursday.



  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Warbringa said:
    I don't mean to minimize the fact Bishop has a broken character set but do want to add some perspective/reality to why the devs may not care.  I don't have the statistics (but would love to see them) but an educated guess of mine is that PvE is probably a much larger share of the game play throughout the entire player base than PvP is.  Better rewards and less stress for most players.  Therefore in reality, the devs don't put Bishop as a huge problem because he isn't a PvE breaking character and the vast majority of the player base isn't impacted.  Even within PvP, only with 5* characters is he broken.  Dwindle that player base even further since only a portion of the 5* PvP players (those that play PvP a lot) are the ones facing the pain.  According to the forums you would think is a huge part of the player base but in reality is a very small group of players in the overall scope of the game.  

    For example, I am in a casual alliance that I would say is mostly veteran players.  About half of the players have 5* rosters and no one has ever even mentioned the Bishop problem in alliance chat.  Never.  I am not denying it is a problem but if you want to know why the devs don't have it high on their priority list, this is a major reason.  The other reason is that unless they feel he is impacting revenue streams (which he may actually help due to his health pack drain) that is a even bigger reason there may not be any change. 

    Problems and complaints that do come up in our alliance chat in our alliance chat....dilution, RNG, Shield Training required characters, supports (and the lack thereof), lackluster rewards for certain events or packages offered for purchase.  
    Glad i read to the end before i chimed in, because you wonderfully said exactly what i was planning to bring up. The number of people impacted by bishop is probably comically small in comparison to the number of players who couldn't care less. 

    Just as a point of reference, as a pretty high up 5* vet (23 5* champs), my highest boosted 4* for PVP right now is Vulture at level 342, boosted to 447.  His strongest color, black, does 306 damage, so a match 3 is 918.  My un-boosted bishop, sitting at 286, requires 973 damage before jumping in front.  So, I have received 85 covers for just this one specific 4*, and he still doesn't do enough damage to trigger the power from a match just by itself.   Most people playing lower level PVP are probably still griping about a low level kitty with grocket in regular pvp, or grocket/medusa for sim that bishop is probably not even on their radar.  
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Daredevil217 said:
    jp1 said:
    The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous. 

    You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point? 

    Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...

    Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.

    Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.

    #bishopsucksfor20likes
    Look, no offense, but you just did everything I accused the nerf-detractors of in my last post.

    Should Thor be nerfed? I personally don’t think so, for plenty of reasons. However, it is debatable. I won’t pretend that it’s not. If you or Hound want to start a new thread or bump an old one, I’m all for it. I’ll likely debate it in whatever thread you all decide to use. 

    I pointed out several arguments that people have made as to why Bishop should be nerfed, and you still claim we boil it down to one issue devoid of context. 

    You attack the posters, saying they have a “cult mentality” rather than attack their arguments (plural) as to why he should be nerfed. If that’s the route you want to take, then I support you “giving up” in this thread.

    Maybe the reason why they all have a “cult mentality” is because they are all seeing the same broken mechanic? Most those who are not part of the “cult” are NOT getting punished for matching  3, are NOT having a miserable time with Bishop and do NOT see him as a problem in their tier?

    It’s not about 20 likes, saving health packs, or any other point that you brought in that is besides the actual points being made. Bishop needs to be fixed for all the reasons I stated in my last post.  I’m not going to repeat them all if they are just going to be sidestepped again.

    When focusing on his actual mechanics, you stated that when looked at in “a vacuum”, what Bishop does every time a 5* team matches 3 is “not okay”. If nothing else, know that I appreciate you at least acknowledging as much. 

    I find it ironic that the person who was so adamant about the 5* tier, who railed against transitioning for the longest time, who spent sooooo much time arguing with 5* players about pvp, is now a cheerleader for change because something upsets the apple cart for the 5* play.  just for giggles, i spent 30 seconds, went back almost a year, to a thread you created in last October, when you were just getting ready to transition.

    "I’ve been mulling over the 5* transition more and more (for me there’s just a few characters that seem fun to play, especially Daredevil). However I constantly hear two things that concern me.
    1) it’s harder to climb, I get attacked earlier and more often, need to shield more, etc. 
    For me I like waltzing to 900 in the last hour and not having to use shields! Would that go away once 5* can see me?
    2) It’s a Thorkoye fest. 
    One of the great things about the 4* tier is that I use and see a wide variety of characters. Within an event it is usually the featured and maybe 4-6 different characters in various combos- but you get a different set each event. Would it be Thorkoye central for every event? If so, how can you have fun only using those same characters. For those who talk about mixing in max champed 4s, I’d guess the mean of my 4s is only 300 and my highest is 310. 
    So if 1 and 2 are true (PVP is harder and way more of my roster is obsolete), what is the payoff for transitioning? I’m already getting pretty great rewards for the effort I expend. Is it really just for faster PVE? "

    So now i ask: how many people you do think are still out there, climbing late and getting rewards, without a thought or care about bishop?  or even worse, use him all the time to help get those better rewards?  I said it in the other thread, i regularly climb to 900 every pvp and rarely see Bishop.  So in my opinion, vacuum or not, is that he is probably not as bad as being made out to be.  

    p.s.  this isn't an attack or anything, i'm honestly asking out of curiosity.  what percentage of the player base do you  think is "negatively" impacted by bishop?  not just the total of who uses him, i am talking those that cannot get around him on a weekly basis, when he is unboosted in pvp, and can't skip to get by him.  
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spudgutter said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    jp1 said:
    The cult mentality in these threads is ridiculous. 

    You know, I give up as well. I would rather see Bishop nerfed into oblivion than read this nonsense on an endless loop. How far home can you drive the same point? 

    Thor needs a nerf as well if a ridiculous mechanic is all that matters. Half-health Thor is gaining tons of free AP and doing massive damage from turn 1. Then after 2 to 3 turns he is dropping enough AOE damage to wipe most of the team. That is a perfectly acceptable mechanic though? Okay...

    Remember, it doesn’t matter if Thor can be beat, it’s not the point, it’s his one specific mechanic and if it is fair or not. No other factors can be considered.

    Long live Thorkoye, Health pack free PvP, shield hopping, and Line manipulation. Make the masses happy.

    #bishopsucksfor20likes
    Look, no offense, but you just did everything I accused the nerf-detractors of in my last post.

    Should Thor be nerfed? I personally don’t think so, for plenty of reasons. However, it is debatable. I won’t pretend that it’s not. If you or Hound want to start a new thread or bump an old one, I’m all for it. I’ll likely debate it in whatever thread you all decide to use. 

    I pointed out several arguments that people have made as to why Bishop should be nerfed, and you still claim we boil it down to one issue devoid of context. 

    You attack the posters, saying they have a “cult mentality” rather than attack their arguments (plural) as to why he should be nerfed. If that’s the route you want to take, then I support you “giving up” in this thread.

    Maybe the reason why they all have a “cult mentality” is because they are all seeing the same broken mechanic? Most those who are not part of the “cult” are NOT getting punished for matching  3, are NOT having a miserable time with Bishop and do NOT see him as a problem in their tier?

    It’s not about 20 likes, saving health packs, or any other point that you brought in that is besides the actual points being made. Bishop needs to be fixed for all the reasons I stated in my last post.  I’m not going to repeat them all if they are just going to be sidestepped again.

    When focusing on his actual mechanics, you stated that when looked at in “a vacuum”, what Bishop does every time a 5* team matches 3 is “not okay”. If nothing else, know that I appreciate you at least acknowledging as much. 

    I find it ironic that the person who was so adamant about the 5* tier, who railed against transitioning for the longest time, who spent sooooo much time arguing with 5* players about pvp, is now a cheerleader for change because something upsets the apple cart for the 5* play.  just for giggles, i spent 30 seconds, went back almost a year, to a thread you created in last October, when you were just getting ready to transition.

    "I’ve been mulling over the 5* transition more and more (for me there’s just a few characters that seem fun to play, especially Daredevil). However I constantly hear two things that concern me.
    1) it’s harder to climb, I get attacked earlier and more often, need to shield more, etc. 
    For me I like waltzing to 900 in the last hour and not having to use shields! Would that go away once 5* can see me?
    2) It’s a Thorkoye fest. 
    One of the great things about the 4* tier is that I use and see a wide variety of characters. Within an event it is usually the featured and maybe 4-6 different characters in various combos- but you get a different set each event. Would it be Thorkoye central for every event? If so, how can you have fun only using those same characters. For those who talk about mixing in max champed 4s, I’d guess the mean of my 4s is only 300 and my highest is 310. 
    So if 1 and 2 are true (PVP is harder and way more of my roster is obsolete), what is the payoff for transitioning? I’m already getting pretty great rewards for the effort I expend. Is it really just for faster PVE? "

    So now i ask: how many people you do think are still out there, climbing late and getting rewards, without a thought or care about bishop?  or even worse, use him all the time to help get those better rewards?  I said it in the other thread, i regularly climb to 900 every pvp and rarely see Bishop.  So in my opinion, vacuum or not, is that he is probably not as bad as being made out to be.  

    p.s.  this isn't an attack or anything, i'm honestly asking out of curiosity.  what percentage of the player base do you  think is "negatively" impacted by bishop?  not just the total of who uses him, i am talking those that cannot get around him on a weekly basis, when he is unboosted in pvp, and can't skip to get by him.  
    What percentage of the playerbase was affected by 5* Gambit? I suspect it was even lower than bishop because 5* gambit had a perfect counter. It was 5* gambit.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2019
    I distinctly remember people building multiple 5 only black covered gambits at the 3* tier and devs acted pretty quickly there too.
  • Southside84
    Southside84 Posts: 93 Match Maker
    First off, i'll start by saying I'm not a 5 star player.  I have about 25 4 star champs, bishop being one of them.  I never use him.  He's fast and strong enough, but there are other options I prefer.   That being said, I also don't want to see him nerfed.  I usually dont stick with a single team, and like having him as a back pocket option as I climb for a fight or 3.  History shows they'll overnerf him into beyond worthlessness.  His damage thresholds could be higher so you can make that match 3 without being overclocked and stunned, but I think the basis of the character works.  I don't really see a lot of him, even in sim.   Never run into him in the 3 star PVP.  I dont think I even have a 5 star that hits that hard without a rocket boosting, so bishop is just another 4 star that needs to be carefully managed when fighting him for me.
  • dkffiv
    dkffiv Posts: 1,039 Chairperson of the Boards
    Southside84 said:
    First off, i'll start by saying I'm not a 5 star player.  I have about 25 4 star champs, bishop being one of them.  I never use him.  He's fast and strong enough, but there are other options I prefer.   That being said, I also don't want to see him nerfed.  I usually dont stick with a single team, and like having him as a back pocket option as I climb for a fight or 3.  History shows they'll overnerf him into beyond worthlessness.  His damage thresholds could be higher so you can make that match 3 without being overclocked and stunned, but I think the basis of the character works.  I don't really see a lot of him, even in sim.   Never run into him in the 3 star PVP.  I dont think I even have a 5 star that hits that hard without a rocket boosting, so bishop is just another 4 star that needs to be carefully managed when fighting him for me.
    At level 300 Bishop needs to take 550ish damage to proc blue.  A 4 cover level 315 5* does 600+ damage per match.
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    dkffiv said:
    tiomono said:
    I would like to point out that listing surfer as a true counter feels off to me. He has to tank to stop the stun. I also feel it is possible to cover characters from classic tokens, just slow. I have a 12 cover surfer but have yet to dump the iso in to raise him to 435. Right now he is at 365 and it will cost 229,851 to max his level out. But he still would struggle to tank much in a team of 2 other 5's. Maybe I will just take the plunge and level home up to see how good he is vs champed bishop.

    For me the stun is not the issue. The issue is Bishop doing 4k damage to my 2k while gaining 5 ap to my 3. Then taking his own turn.
    Surfer will not tank red even when a decently higher level than Okoye/Kitty/JJ/Hela/Rescue/Ghost Rider/Captain Marvel.  He loses 1v1 battles against Bishop because his match damage is lower than the counter attack damage and you can't generate blue fast enough to outheal it. 

    I remember having to grind down the Bishop hard node in the support circuit first because it was a tinykitty shoot if you could clear it without wiping even given the option of bringing any team you wanted.  I remember bringing my 470 Surfer and still losing.  This was before players had access to high level Bishops and it was already clear he was going to be a problem.
    I would think surfer would win in a 1v1 with bishop. Does he not have high enough health to take enough of bishops retals while whittling bishop down with his own match damage? Or just firing his 7 cost red which could do around half of bishops health in one shot.
  • Warbringa
    Warbringa Posts: 1,299 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    bluewolf said:

    All that said, he does impact the game in a negative way for 5* players.  It's pretty much as simple as that.  5* players are almost certainly the group that contains the people who spend the most on the game, so maybe some attention should be paid to our concerns
    I don't know if this is true.  You may wish to believe that but I think if it was and the devs & publishers saw a large monetary impact they would change it.  Face it, whales are one of the primary monetary drivers in the game.  Whales probably have maxed champed Bishops and actually don't mind it.  You also are not considering that the vast majority of players are not 5*.  Even if 5* players spend more per player (which may be true), that doesn't mean they are the driving revenue source of the game. I think many 5* players are able to accumulate enough resources in game that they don't have to actually spend money in many cases. I know that I am in that camp.  I would love to spend more money on the game....but that is a different discussion.
  • Therealsmkspy
    Therealsmkspy Posts: 254 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2019
    I'll leave this here as a prime example of what happens when vets become apathetic and eventually leave. And the remaining majority are so apathetic that no one cares to pick up keep such a valuable engagement tool going.

    https://forums.d3go.com/discussion/57721/dauthis-4-guide-so-youve-made-it-this-far/p1

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