Bishop sucking the fun out of the game

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  • shinnaruto
    shinnaruto Posts: 60 Match Maker
    I like my Kitty/Grocket/Cable combo, but I will sub out Cable for Bishop when facing another Bishop. The first few rounds are nothing but the Bishops jumping in front until one dies. It is actually amusing to watch as I hope mine is one left standing.
  • JSP869
    JSP869 Posts: 822 Critical Contributor
    jp1 said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    jp1 said:
    Wow, this dead horse is going to need its own forum section if we get any more threads. 

    I realize I’m not on board with this nerf, but even if I was, this is getting excessive. They already said no nerf was in the works.
    I don’t believe a developer or Brigby has commented in any of the Bishop threads here, unless I’m mistaken. 
    I took the discord news to be given in good faith. If you didn’t, fair enough. What is the appropriate number of threads until you receive a response? 

    I understand the frustration about communication, trust me. At some point the silence becomes your answer though.
    24-pages (& counting) of silence from the Devs.
  • jp1
    jp1 Posts: 1,081 Chairperson of the Boards
    The rockett said:
    As i started in the other thread. During the Squirrel Girl PVP, my SQ was level 412 and went against a level 272 Bishop. While my 2 other boosted 4* were stunned, I made a 3 match of green which triggers Bishops passive and stunned SG.  

    If you cannot even use the required 3* without triggering Bishops passive, there is a problem.  That means, I cannot use my 5*s, my boosted 4* OR the required 3* without his passive going off. 

    If you think this is ok, then I really don’t know what to say.  
    I’m not debating the merits of the argument. I happen to disagree, but that’s irrelevant. My point was that the excessive amount of threads is bordering on harassment, just my opinion. 

    Clearly the Devs have been aware of the original thread...what’s the goal with the continuing echo chamber across multiple threads about the same topic?

    If this were all in the original thread, so be it. It really has become cyclical...but whatever. I certainly wasn’t hoping to impede anyone’s ability to vent. 

    I suppose if it requires six different threads, bang on gents...no skin off my back.
  • Warbeast_7
    Warbeast_7 Posts: 28 Just Dropped In
    Don't nerf Bishop. Just create a counter for him. Something like "whenever an ability would generate ap for an opponent, you steal it and generate it instead". Boom, problem solved! These guys have proven time and time again that they can not errata for ****. So just come out with something that can counter him.
  • bluewolf
    bluewolf Posts: 5,729 Chairperson of the Boards
    Warbeast_7 said:
    Don't nerf Bishop. Just create a counter for him. Something like "whenever an ability would generate ap for an opponent, you steal it and generate it instead". Boom, problem solved! These guys have proven time and time again that they can not errata for tinykitty. So just come out with something that can counter him.
    A partial list of 4’s that have abilities that generate AP who would be nerfed by this character. 

    Medusa
    Vulture
    Coulson
    4SL
    Iron Fist
    Cyclops
    Rulk
    Miles
    Mysterio 

    This is a Bishop problem. 

    Making another super passive character that counters him automatically  will have major consequences. 
  • tiomono
    tiomono Posts: 1,654 Chairperson of the Boards
    bluewolf said:
    Warbeast_7 said:
    Don't nerf Bishop. Just create a counter for him. Something like "whenever an ability would generate ap for an opponent, you steal it and generate it instead". Boom, problem solved! These guys have proven time and time again that they can not errata for tinykitty. So just come out with something that can counter him.
    A partial list of 4’s that have abilities that generate AP who would be nerfed by this character. 

    Medusa
    Vulture
    Coulson
    4SL
    Iron Fist
    Cyclops
    Rulk
    Miles
    Mysterio 

    This is a Bishop problem. 

    Making another super passive character that counters him automatically  will have major consequences. 
    Then it counters ap gain when it is not their turn. That list is much smaller.

    Bishop
    Medusa
    4* Carol
    5*Carol
    4* Prof X
    Miles

    Probably some others I am missing. However you could tune it to how much ap is gained. If its 4 or more and not their turn bring the punishment. I would think just cancelling the AP gain would be sufficient. Negate the gain completely or give it to the player if you really want to punish.

    A "super" passive to counter bishop specifically is the most reasonable approach in my mind. Vulture is amazing with his black, but not vs a character with a "super" passive that brings the pain to airborne opponents, 5* Archangel. A mediocre character in general but perfect vs certain opponents.

    There are plenty of other passives or actives that are very specific in what they punish and counter. And I'm pretty sure bishop is the only character with one of these passives that has no direct way to deal with it through an active power or passive.
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    If Bishop is to be nerfed, 5* Thor should be nerfed too, simply because it makes those who use him often or over rely on him to climb PvPs too complacent. 

    On the 2nd turn, a half-health Thor(HHT) team would have gained a minimum of 11ap, not including ap gained from cascades and whatnot, whereas a normal player gains 6ap.

    On the 4th turn, HHT would have gained a minimum of 27ap, whereas it is a minimum of 12ap for normal player.

    If the meta is to be shakeup, Thor's passive ap gain should be nerfed as well. 


  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    jp1 said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    jp1 said:
    Wow, this dead horse is going to need its own forum section if we get any more threads. 

    I realize I’m not on board with this nerf, but even if I was, this is getting excessive. They already said no nerf was in the works.
    I don’t believe a developer or Brigby has commented in any of the Bishop threads here, unless I’m mistaken. 
    I took the discord news to be given in good faith. If you didn’t, fair enough. What is the appropriate number of threads until you receive a response? 

    I understand the frustration about communication, trust me. At some point the silence becomes your answer though.
    I’m not on Discord. 

    I’m not on Facebook. 

    I’m not on Reddit. 

    I have not seen this “news” myself. I come to the official forums for my news and developer updates. I know that may seem silly to some, but it’s how I choose to operate, despite the track record of awful communication. I agree that the three Bishop threads could be combined into one, but I’m not a moderator. 

    You say they are “aware” of the Bishop thread, but how are we to know that? A developer saying “nerfing Bishop hasn’t been on our radar” means the thread is on their radar? There has not been an inkling of evidence in any thread that anyone has read it. 

    Also, a developer saying we haven’t made plans to nerf him, but then going on to theorycraft ways to nerf him seems like a definitive answer to you? Am I supposed to take the “silence” as my answer, or back channel communication as my answer. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask for answers on the official forum given the level of broken. 

    I personally think there is no way he stays the way he is and am cautioning people about wasting bonus heroes.  This is Gambattery levels of busted (except Bish collects AP way faster and does passive damage while collecting his blue). If the developers only test 5s against 5s and 4s against 4s, I can see why he might’ve slipped by, but if they have anyone who plays regularly in the 5* tier deal with the BishWall, I can’t see him sticking around unchanged. 

    He’s also just bad for business because as I said, his mechanic promotes actively avoiding transitioning to the 5* tier (something I know a lot about haha). 
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    The topic is Bishop sucking the fun out of the game. I understand why and also think that 5* Thor is also sucking the fun out of the game.

    My reason for nerfing Thor is because he makes those who rely on him too complacent. He sucks the fun because that player just need to move a tile and collect free 5aps every turn. Sure, you need him to be half-health but that "weakness" has been overcome.

    He can accomplish something in 2 turns which takes normal players 4 turn to accomplish. He's the measuring stick for all 5* because of his free 5ap gain per turn. No new 5* will be able to meet his standard unless they can do something similar to what he is doing, or even better. He will forever be at the top and it make things stale. 


  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    I have Thor with cover in his meta colour.

    I'm not the only one who thinks that Thor's free collecting ap should be tweaked. They are not complaining because they are living in a comfort zone. Thor makes their lives too comfortable. They makes climbing PvPs quick work.

    Take away Thor's free ap gain and Okoye might take his place but it's not a guarantee because teamup tiles drop less often than coloured tiles. With Thor's free ap gain, he will be guaranteed to be at the top in years to come.
  • Daredevil217
    Daredevil217 Posts: 3,939 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    I have Thor with cover in his meta colour.

    I'm not the only one who thinks that Thor's free collecting ap should be tweaked. They are not complaining because they are living in a comfort zone. Thor makes their lives too comfortable. They makes climbing PvPs quick work.

    Take away Thor's free ap gain and Okoye might take his place but it's not a guarantee because teamup tiles drop less often than coloured tiles. With Thor's free ap gain, he will be guaranteed to be at the top in years to come.
    A Thor with a green cover is not exactly a game changer. I’d say you need at least 4 green to make him a real option over other choices. 

    What are your thoughts on Grocket making people’s lives too comfortable? I noticed you completely skipped over that point. If you’re a 3*-5* player and you have him covered... you’re running him. Offensive or defensive team... you’re running him. PVE or PVP... you’re running him. This isn’t true of Thor at all.

    Don’t you think we as an entire playerbase have become too “comfortable” using Grocket to speed though the game?  He doesn’t have to be at half health or anything. Just drops huge strikes right from the jump. You can avoid Thor’s passive easily, by whittling him to half health and nuking or stunning so you NEVER see his passive. No way to do that with Grocket. He hits you with it turn 1, which is why everyone who has him plays him excessively. 
  • pheregas
    pheregas Posts: 1,721 Chairperson of the Boards
    Thor is not the issue here.  Sure, he makes a lot of the game quicker, but you have to jockey around him in order to make him work.  Does he have low enough health?  Are you fighting a team with AOE?  Can you play without having him tank too often?  Yes, Thor is very useful, but also very beatable.

    Bishop, however, is only negated by a couple very specific people and can wreck any climb.  In regards to the top Bishop node in Sim Round 2, he's very easily dealt with in a team with Surfer, Medusa, and many other 4s (Blade, or Chavez could work).  If I had to grind that one 4x, it would take some time, but is doable.

    In PVP...  Sure, you could take out any Bishop team with a similar team, but it also paints the hugest target on your back.  You'll lose more to climbers than you'll gain from that Bishop team.  

    If you can float at high points with a 5*, the essential, and Bishop...  Well, that's kind of the point of this thread, right?
  • BriMan2222
    BriMan2222 Posts: 1,232 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2019
    HoundofShadow said:
    I have Thor with cover in his meta colour.

    I'm not the only one who thinks that Thor's free collecting ap should be tweaked. They are not complaining because they are living in a comfort zone. Thor makes their lives too comfortable. They makes climbing PvPs quick work.

    Take away Thor's free ap gain and Okoye might take his place but it's not a guarantee because teamup tiles drop less often than coloured tiles. With Thor's free ap gain, he will be guaranteed to be at the top in years to come.
    When I see a team with Bishop I have to seriously consider if I want to hit that team or not.  It all depends on what lvl bishop is and how much health he has.   My team of 5 star ghost rider, 5 star Panther and 5 star thanos can usually handle a bishop team but things can go sideways quickly if I get unlucky.

    Thor on the other hand requires no consideration.  If he's worth points I'll hit him.  He might be good on offense but on defense hes' easy.  Just deny green and save Thor for last.
  • The Viceroy Returns
    The Viceroy Returns Posts: 493 Mover and Shaker
    tiomono said:
    The Viceroy Returns said:
    And the 2nd Sub in the Simulator has him in the final one-play node, so you can't even avoid him fully in PVE.

    And that fight was ROUGH.  My entire team got stunned as they got like 25+ Blue after my first turn (that had cascades and such).  I was lucky to get enough Purple before that to be able to stun him back with my 5-Star Daredevil when he became available.  Could have very easily lost, which almost never happens in PVE for me with a champed Thorkye and even an almost usable Gritty team as well (she's 375 @ 1 5 2).

    But DAMN.
    I didn't fully understand how bad a high level Bishop is, but yeah.  I don't care what the "never nerf anyone!" crowd says.  He NEEDS to be nerfed and is ridiculously unbalanced.
    But the one off node is literally the easiest place to deal with him.

    That may be true, but I'm just saying that even in a one-off setting at a relatively low level of 270, simply his inclusion alone in that node made it strikingly harder than any other PVE node I've come across in like a year, aside from that time I think he was in a 4-Star required node in a previous run of the Sim back near when he was first released (which can level higher than 270).
    It was an unexpected challenge for a change sure, but not due to good game design.

    One of his main issues is he gets more dangerous the higher levels your team is (both high Champed 4's and champed 5's) because you trigger his passive no matter what you do literally every turn, and sometimes multiple times a turn even without trying due to unexpected cascades from off-screen tiles (which should be a good thing most of the time).

    Imagine what they'd do with him if they still ran the Gauntlet:



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