*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Kolence

finwe wrote:

Nerf was needed, but they Ragnarocked him. So yeah, unhappy.

Exactly how I feel too.

SirKopath wrote:

Still tactically useful, solid healing, and no OP stunlock.

My Spidey with 2 yellow and 2 blue covers (same AP costs as after the nerf) was only useful to help keep in check the opposing 2AP Spidey and barely able to stunlock in PvE against Devil Dino or Juggernaut (basically where 6AP of some color would mean a lost fight) with the help of boosts and MMN and IM40. If board was great at the start it was still no guarantee that he would maintain the stunlock with all that help, not until one of the enemies was KO. And that was with 5 turns max stun.

I respect that we can have different opinion, and I completely agree about stunlock and healing, it's just that phrase "tactically useful" that is a little jarring. Because based on my playing experience, other than healing, there is little useful left in this new Spidey. Only stunning Hulk comes to mind as useful tactic for his stun. And boosting the healing at the end.

Unknown

I want a response that says i'm happy he is going to be nerfed but the nerf is retardedly over the top.

Unknown

Damn,

All opposing teams are maxxed Lazy Thor, Lazy Daken, and Magneto..
But SpiderMan takes priority I quess.

He should be nerfed. They are way overnerfing him now. Tell me a team combination where he is actually better then the rest or at least oke????

But they should nerf the other OP's aswell.
Knowing this game it takes half a year... but I quess since the theme as of late is Lazy, it's ok

Dayv

dlaw008 wrote:

Okay, so he now has (and also previously had) a stun, a heal, and random free protect tiles. So compare each ability to a similar ability in another character.

Who has a similar low cost single target stun? Venom. His costs 4 ap. Spiderman's costs 5 ap. Both stun a single target for 1 turn, but Spiderman may stun for 2 or three turns if web tiles exist on the board. Seems pretty similar. For Venom to stun the entire opposing team it costs 7 ap, but again only lasts a single turn. MBW charges 9 ap for a five turn stun, which also gets the rest of the team for a turn, which is definitely better, but I would still pick Spiderman over MBW in any team comp. Classic Storm has a 4 turn stun, coupled with a massive aoe for 11 ap. Much, much better, but more for the damage than the stun. I would probably pick Classic Storm over Spiderman in most team comps because doing damage is almost always better than not doing damage, but if the damage weren't a factor I would prefer the 5 ap cost to the 11. Daredevil? I don't even remember how much it costs, but it randomly removes an opponent for six turns, which usually equates to the remainder of the battle. I'd much rather have Spiderman than Daredevil in almost any team comp. In my opinion it's not unreasonable to say that Spiderman remains the best stunner in the game.

The only reason he could be considered to still be the best stunner in the game is because he's 3*, though. Compare apples to apples. If you had to choose between level 40 MBW and level 40 Spidey, and stunning matters, who do you take? How about level 85 vs. Classic Storm?

Even allowing for level discrepancies, if stunning is what I want in a team lineup, I'll be taking 3* Cap or 2* Storm from now on. Spidey was OP, but now he'll be nearly useless.

I'm in the camp that they should have revised him completely. Remove the reliance on web tiles completely (I may post in another thread recommending that web tiles be removed from the game), turn one of his support powers into an offensive move, and generally make him more well-rounded. Spider-Man is stronger than Captain America in most versions, and known for his speed, stamina, willpower, intelligence, and wit. All D3 saw was a dude with web-shooters.

Unknown

I dunno what you guys were expecting. In his current form, what made him good was horrendously broken to the point where the AI could shut you out of the game forever off a good cascade. It's like Ragnarok (and, eventually, Magneto) - how the heck do you "fix" that? Answer: by tweaking the values. It's just a shame that the line between "broken" and "****" is such a tiny margin.

Unknown

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

I dunno what you guys were expecting. In his current form, what made him good was horrendously broken to the point where the AI could shut you out of the game forever off a good cascade. It's like Ragnarok (and, eventually, Magneto) - how the heck do you "fix" that? Answer: by tweaking the values. It's just a shame that the line between "broken" and "****" is such a tiny margin.

This is the same problem people have with control in M:tG. You have a spell countered and it makes you feel cheated because your spell didn't resolve, even though there are plenty of other similarly costed spells that could have effectively countered your spell after it resolved and you wouldn't have batted an eye. Doomblade kills a creature at 2 mana and Essence Scatter counters a creature for the same price; players will prefer having the first happen every time (even when they're functionally identical).

Spiderman can shut you out after a good cascade?!?! My word! I don't know if you guys noticed, but Patch will flat-out murder your team with a good cascade. I lost 10k health yesterday on a turn where Berserker Rage led into a fortunate cascade. If it had been Spiderman stunning me one dude at a time and doing negligible match damage, I probably could haverecovered

Unknown

Sorry, phone input problems.

Big cascades kill you. With damage dealers it happens more quickly, so it doesn't break our hearts.

Does that mean Spiderman was fine as he was? No, he was broken. Does that mean he needed to be oblivionized? No. This is Ragnarok all over again.

DD-The-Mighty

DayvBang wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

Okay, so he now has (and also previously had) a stun, a heal, and random free protect tiles. So compare each ability to a similar ability in another character.

Who has a similar low cost single target stun? Venom. His costs 4 ap. Spiderman's costs 5 ap. Both stun a single target for 1 turn, but Spiderman may stun for 2 or three turns if web tiles exist on the board. Seems pretty similar. For Venom to stun the entire opposing team it costs 7 ap, but again only lasts a single turn. MBW charges 9 ap for a five turn stun, which also gets the rest of the team for a turn, which is definitely better, but I would still pick Spiderman over MBW in any team comp. Classic Storm has a 4 turn stun, coupled with a massive aoe for 11 ap. Much, much better, but more for the damage than the stun. I would probably pick Classic Storm over Spiderman in most team comps because doing damage is almost always better than not doing damage, but if the damage weren't a factor I would prefer the 5 ap cost to the 11. Daredevil? I don't even remember how much it costs, but it randomly removes an opponent for six turns, which usually equates to the remainder of the battle. I'd much rather have Spiderman than Daredevil in almost any team comp. In my opinion it's not unreasonable to say that Spiderman remains the best stunner in the game.

The only reason he could be considered to still be the best stunner in the game is because he's 3*, though. Compare apples to apples. If you had to choose between level 40 MBW and level 40 Spidey, and stunning matters, who do you take? How about level 85 vs. Classic Storm?

Even allowing for level discrepancies, if stunning is what I want in a team lineup, I'll be taking 3* Cap or 2* Storm from now on. Spidey was OP, but now he'll be nearly useless.

I'm in the camp that they should have revised him completely. Remove the reliance on web tiles completely (I may post in another thread recommending that web tiles be removed from the game), turn one of his support powers into an offensive move, and generally make him more well-rounded. Spider-Man is stronger than Captain America in most versions, and known for his speed, stamina, willpower, intelligence, and wit. All D3 saw was a dude with web-shooters.

That's really is all Spider-man is. Support. Unless there's some personal **** going on, he's kind of a snoozer in a team setting. A literal Joke character. Like it or not when people think of offensive forces to be reckoned with there will always be a lot more names that spring to mind before The Amazing Wish-fulfillment-Man.

He should be pure focused support, and good at it; and in that area they funbalaned him far too harshly.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

Budget Player Cadet wrote:

I dunno what you guys were expecting. In his current form, what made him good was horrendously broken to the point where the AI could shut you out of the game forever off a good cascade. It's like Ragnarok (and, eventually, Magneto) - how the heck do you "fix" that? Answer: by tweaking the values. It's just a shame that the line between "broken" and "****" is such a tiny margin.

This is the same problem people have with control in M:tG. You have a spell countered and it makes you feel cheated because your spell didn't resolve, even though there are plenty of other similarly costed spells that could have effectively countered your spell after it resolved and you wouldn't have batted an eye. Doomblade kills a creature at 2 mana and Essence Scatter counters a creature for the same price; players will prefer having the first happen every time (even when they're functionally identical).

Spiderman can shut you out after a good cascade?!?! My word! I don't know if you guys noticed, but Patch will flat-out murder your team with a good cascade. I lost 10k health yesterday on a turn where Berserker Rage led into a fortunate cascade. If it had been Spiderman stunning me one dude at a time and doing negligible match damage, I probably could haverecovered

It's not really comparable. Wolvie needs to hit 9 green AP before he can really start hurting you, and you still have an opportunity to mount some form of heavily buffed offense if he doesn't immediately murder your team (difficult). Whereas with Spidey, you match blue once, stun a char; match blue again, stun the next two; then you have quite a bit of time to keep making blue matches. By "good cascade" I meant "hits blue twice" or "hits a 4+ blue match". The problem is with how the skill is conceived. It ends games way too fast. That's the big difference between Spidey and Patch, IMO. My point was mainly "of course the nerf is going to be heavy-handed - the line between way too good and awful is paper-thin!". Unless you want to argue that he didn't need a nerf, in which case... Well, you're wrong.

Unknown

It would be more productive with options adding a "have/not have spiderman" part.

over_clocked

Even though I've suffered as much as anyone from all the PvP Spider-wolves (c) someone else coined that term, forget who, sorry!, I don't think his new rendition will be terribly viable. Sure, he will heal and maybe stun, but his healing is secondary to stunning imo (you can win without healing), and he's simply not very good at stunning now. I understand that 2 AP abilities need to go, but the new stun just seems awfully hard to execute efficiently without a blue battery. I would take mBW/cStorm/Cap over Spidey now for a difficult PvE match since healing is a sin anyway.

Edit: since the new stun essentially works the same as pre-nerf lvl 2 but tops at 3 turns, I remembered that I didn't start using Spidey until he hit at least 3 levels in blue (4 AP stun) as stunlock or similar could be achieved with AP generation (mStorm). Count me in among those that think Spidey's purple should generate webtiles, or something like that.

Unknown

he's bagmanman.

new heal is fine. new purple is pretty weak. new blue is terrible. i understand and agree that his pre-nerf form is too strong, but they went too far the other way. he'll be used about as much as daredevil in pvp/pve now.

Zifna

I'm happy he was nerfed. I feel like they could have balanced him well with something more moderate, like making his stun go down to only a 3-cost or something... but at least they improved his healing. He'll have a different role now.

HairyDave

I've actually gone out of my way to find Spidey teams in Fatal Attraction (now that my MMR has gotten that high) just to see what all the fuss is about before the nerf kicks in - and my god is he annoying to take out. The nerf might be a little heavy handed but something definitely needed to be done about his blue.

ClydeFrog76

DayvBang wrote:

I'm in the camp that they should have revised him completely. Remove the reliance on web tiles completely (I may post in another thread recommending that web tiles be removed from the game), turn one of his support powers into an offensive move, and generally make him more well-rounded. Spider-Man is stronger than Captain America in most versions, and known for his speed, stamina, willpower, intelligence, and wit. All D3 saw was a dude with web-shooters.

Exactly. They really don't understand the character at all.

Unknown

bloodwars wrote:

he's bagmanman.

new heal is fine. new purple is pretty weak. new blue is terrible. i understand and agree that his pre-nerf form is too strong, but they went too far the other way. he'll be used about as much as daredevil in pvp/pve now.

Daredevil is the greatest! You're all just using him wrong.

/s

Unknown

Spiderman probably would have been better if he didn't rely on web tiles and is just say a 3* version of Black Widow (at least for stuns). An ability like Widow's Sting is boring but perfectly functional and quite balanced. In fact, maybe they should just replace ATU with Widow's Sting. Sure he can no longer generate web tiles anymore, but Widow's Sting is a very solid ability and it was never practical to generate web tiles when it takes 5 to place just one. It'd be great for PvE against 1 villian + 2 goon combo, and is a solid move even for PvE as it definitely stuns one guy long enough for you to either avoid his passive, or enough time to actually try to kill that guy before he is about to do a big move.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Spiderman probably would have been better if he didn't rely on web tiles and is just say a 3* version of Black Widow (at least for stuns). An ability like Widow's Sting is boring but perfectly functional and quite balanced. In fact, maybe they should just replace ATU with Widow's Sting. Sure he can no longer generate web tiles anymore, but Widow's Sting is a very solid ability and it was never practical to generate web tiles when it takes 5 to place just one. It'd be great for PvE against 1 villian + 2 goon combo, and is a solid move even for PvE as it definitely stuns one guy long enough for you to either avoid his passive, or enough time to actually try to kill that guy before he is about to do a big move.

Who are you and what have you done with phantron

EDIT: actually a good point was made in another thread re:stunlocking a single character.

You need 24 AP to permastunlock with cap, which is only 2 stuns (but really only 3 matches vs 4 for spidey) worth than the assertion that you can 'easily' permastun a single character with the new spidey*. And in the meantime you have 2/3 stun time and a bunch of high strength protect tiles down. Plus it's a lot easier to defend a single countdown tile than 3 webs (especially since you can place it wherever you want, in a corner)

*once you already have 15 ap/3 webs down

Tannen

Wow. Polarised opinions much?

He needed a nerf. He was game breakingly OP before. I don't think he was "Ragnarok'd" or "Bagmanned" but I am worried that he was possibly over nerfed a little.

I do think that people are knee-jerking reactions to the nerf. You're comparing post to pre nerf and calling him underpowered. Well, yeah, that's the point. He is underpowered compared to before. EVERY character is underpowered compared to pre-nerf Spidey.

It could have been the mildest nerf in the game's history and it would have made him underpowered compared to before.

Look at it this way, now you have to pick when to use his stun, and not just spam it mindlessly (which the computer does) a lucky cascade of blue will no longer mean that you're stunlocked unless the computer (again) mindlessly matches away the yellow web tiles. Now you get to pick if you'd like spidey stun, which will ramp up, and will allow you to stun lock one character, or Lazy Cap's stun, which takes longer to start, can be used again after three turns and leaves a prot tile behind. You now _MUST_ protect those web tiles, else your other abilities won't pack any punch.

It's now a choice.

Yes, yes, some people will say that Cap now obviously better, but I disagree. If you need heals as well as stuns, Spidey is clearly better than Cap. It's NOW a choice. You're the one that has to decide which of the two you want, if you need stuns.

Anyway. I'm sure this won't change anyone's minds... I also suspect that making spidey's stun last 2 turns by default, extendible to 4 turns may be the more balanced choice, but at least now I won't see every attack against me be a spidey + other team. Heh. Maybe I'll get more cmags instead...

Unknown

DayvBang wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

I'm in the camp that they should have revised him completely. Remove the reliance on web tiles completely (I may post in another thread recommending that web tiles be removed from the game), turn one of his support powers into an offensive move, and generally make him more well-rounded. Spider-Man is stronger than Captain America in most versions, and known for his speed, stamina, willpower, intelligence, and wit. All D3 saw was a dude with web-shooters.

I agree. There are moments in the comics when Spidey can take out a whole team. The essence of the character's comic book powers are that he uses webs to tie up enemies, and his agility/spider sense make him extremely difficult to hit. His enemies get very annoyed while fighting him! (which I think is partly why his humor works. He can wisecrack as he jumps around because lumbering muscleheads can't catch him).

As I am a fan of flavor, I would love a Spidey in this game that played that way: keep his stun ability potent, turn his Spider Sense protect tiles into a dodge (like Hawkeye's Avoid). Remove the heal altogether, and give him one offensive combo power - like a flurry of blows that feel sort of like OBW's double hit, or a low cost/low damage AOE - something that would simulate his acrobatic attack style. He wouldn't be a damaging bruiser like Thor, but he couldn't be ignored either - he'd be annoying like a bug! This would feel much more like Spidey, and would keep him relevant without being OP. Current mpq Spidey doesn't get it quite right, but nerfed Spidey feels even more off base.