*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

scottee wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

The problem everyone seems to be having is that his 'grab bag' of powers are really not that great in the current environment. Stun, heal, protect tiles? Any character that doesn't do damage is basically inferior to every character that does.

I agree with your post. The above quote I believe is a false public perception. No, Spiderman doesn't do any damage. He didn't before either. But I'll take a support with 2 tank/cannons over 3 tank/cannons any day.

Spiderman's support is weak, because most people don't seem to realize how certain 'support' abilities are way overpowered.

Lazy Thor converts 14 green to roughly 7800 damage, so he gets better than 500 damage per green AP you have. So if OBW stole 3 green AP with an AR5, you just gained 1500 damage for your team (and -1500 damage for their team if they got Thor). If The Hood stole 1 green AP every other turn, he's contributing 250 damage per turn on a passive on just one color. If those 'support' abilities just did damage based on what your team is able to convert these AP to, they'd be some of the most powerful offensive skills in the game. But since the effect is delayed people apparently don't notice (or maybe don't want to admit) these abilities are powerful. Yes delayed damage sometimes never happen, but if your damage dealer is Thor, it's awfully hard to go through his 8000+ HP before he can unleash a Call the Storm when he's also being fed green AP from other sources.

When you have to compete against support skills that end up doing thousands of damage constantly, of course Spiderman's new skill set is not very competitive. But support abilites aren't suppose to be doing damage comparable to the best offense skills in the game, which they currently do. You can easily make the argument that Magnetic Field, which sure looks like a support skill in function, is easily the most powerful offensive ability in the game right now.

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

scottee wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

The problem everyone seems to be having is that his 'grab bag' of powers are really not that great in the current environment. Stun, heal, protect tiles? Any character that doesn't do damage is basically inferior to every character that does.

I agree with your post. The above quote I believe is a false public perception. No, Spiderman doesn't do any damage. He didn't before either. But I'll take a support with 2 tank/cannons over 3 tank/cannons any day.

Spiderman's support is weak, because most people don't seem to realize how certain 'support' abilities are way overpowered.

Lazy Thor converts 14 green to roughly 7800 damage, so he gets better than 500 damage per green AP you have. So if OBW stole 3 green AP with an AR5, you just gained 1500 damage for your team (and -1500 damage for their team if they got Thor). If The Hood stole 1 green AP every other turn, he's contributing 250 damage per turn on a passive on just one color. If those 'support' abilities just did damage based on what your team is able to convert these AP to, they'd be some of the most powerful offensive skills in the game. But since the effect is delayed people apparently don't notice (or maybe don't want to admit) these abilities are powerful. Yes delayed damage sometimes never happen, but if your damage dealer is Thor, it's awfully hard to go through his 8000+ HP before he can unleash a Call the Storm when he's also being fed green AP from other sources.

When you have to compete against support skills that end up doing thousands of damage constantly, of course Spiderman's new skill set is not very competitive. But support abilites aren't suppose to be doing damage comparable to the best offense skills in the game, which they currently do. You can easily make the argument that Magnetic Field, which sure looks like a support skill in function, is easily the most powerful offensive ability in the game right now.

I'm not sure if I agree with all that analysis, but when the effective cost is effectively 0, it's pretty hard to argue against the damage efficiency of a power...

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

gamar wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

I don't agree with that. The problem is that his Blue at zero web tiles is trash, one web tile is barely usable, and at two web tiles is great. His other two abilities aren't good until you have a few web tiles.

His "particular skillset" even now would be fine - not useless, not broken - if it didn't take so much dang initial investment just to get a web tile or two on the board. He needs some kind of an adjustment so that while you can't effortlessly have web tiles out, it's easier to get at least one out than it is currently.

Even with 2 web tiles out he's not that great though. In order to stunlock as suggested by IceX you need 2/3 of your matches to be blue which is an utterly ridiculous thing to expect to happen or bank on. If i've already invested 10 AP why wouldn't I have 2 more and use ShieldBro to stun where I'll have a turn of uptime but only need to find 2 blue every 3 turns to keep on going. If I ever reach enough for a second blue activation (which I would if I was able to make 2/3 of my matches as blue quite quickly) then I can stunlock for 4 blue every 4 rounds rather than 5 every 3 which is a more realistic endeavour.

Again, I've already said that having to sink 10 AP to get to two web tiles is way too much and makes Spidey suck. But I really disagree that "even with 2 web tiles out he's not that great." 5 AP for 3 turns of stun on one char is incredibly good.

edited because of rude sorry bonfire

Unknown

gamar wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

gamar wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

I don't agree with that. The problem is that his Blue at zero web tiles is trash, one web tile is barely usable, and at two web tiles is great. His other two abilities aren't good until you have a few web tiles.

His "particular skillset" even now would be fine - not useless, not broken - if it didn't take so much dang initial investment just to get a web tile or two on the board. He needs some kind of an adjustment so that while you can't effortlessly have web tiles out, it's easier to get at least one out than it is currently.

Even with 2 web tiles out he's not that great though. In order to stunlock as suggested by IceX you need 2/3 of your matches to be blue which is an utterly ridiculous thing to expect to happen or bank on. If i've already invested 10 AP why wouldn't I have 2 more and use ShieldBro to stun where I'll have a turn of uptime but only need to find 2 blue every 3 turns to keep on going. If I ever reach enough for a second blue activation (which I would if I was able to make 2/3 of my matches as blue quite quickly) then I can stunlock for 4 blue every 4 rounds rather than 5 every 3 which is a more realistic endeavour.

Again, I've already said that having to sink 10 AP to get to two web tiles is way too much and makes Spidey suck. But you're deranged if you think "even with 2 web tiles out he's not that great." 5 AP for 3 turns of stun on one char is incredibly good.

5ap for a 3 turn stun is ok but not all that good unless you're winning in the next 3 turns, or at least downing that hero in that time because that's all it does. By that point L.Cap is stunning for 2 turns for 2 blue AP of additional cost and making protect tiles in the bargain. Or MWB is stunning for 5 turns for 9AP and getting a 1 turn stun on the other bad guys thrown in (7 turns stunning for 9 AP vs 3 for 5AP (6 for 10 which is a worse rate overall and barely better on 1 guy)).

It's generally unlikely that you'll get 2 blue matches in the next 3 turns, or at least not consistently so if there's an ability you don't want to fire then downing the opponent is the only reliable option. Since you've either been focusing fairly hard on acquiring blue AP to have already used 15 and you've not done much damage so it'll be down to luck as often as not that you get the ap you need in time (if you had it already why bother with the stun?) or abilities will already have been firing off (not much takes more than the 15AP you've acquired without much focus).

The way I look at it is if there is more than one bad guy left they are still making AP and the problem you have with the stunned character will probably be there in 3 turns time without you having enough additional blue AP to stun again, if there is only 1 left then unless he's close to dieing you've only saved yourself a few turns of matches which is rarely a big deal. I suppose if you're in a position to engineer a really good match or deny specific colour matches so they can't get an ability off that would be useful but why pick a hero to stun in such a narrow set of circumstances?

If the stun was 5ap but could still go up to 5 turns then that would be an entirely different matter. 2 matches in 5 turns is not guaranteed but much more likely than 2 matches in 3 turns. Even with 2 tiles out I just don't see the stun as particularly useful. I guess the proof will be in the pudding as far as we see how much use he gets post nerf but I certainly will have absolutely no worries about hitting someone with a 141 spidey regardless of covers. At the moment it's an easy enough win but you worry about an easy retal, post nerf i'm not even worried about the retal.

Unknown

If you really want to talk about characters as a complete package, then just look at Lazy Cap. He doesn't do any healing, but he generates protect tiles and stuns more effectively than Spiderman after the nerf. He also has more hit points, and one of the strongest red moves in the game. They didn't "normalize" Spideman, because the new normal (as of Lazy characters/Black Panther) is way more playable than what he is now.

scottee

Moon 17 wrote:

If you really want to talk about characters as a complete package, then just look at Lazy Cap. He doesn't do any healing, but he generates protect tiles and stuns more effectively than Spiderman after the nerf. He also has more hit points, and one of the strongest red moves in the game. They didn't "normalize" Spideman, because the new normal (as of Lazy characters/Black Panther) is way more playable than what he is now.

Lazy Cap also doesn't allow you to walk out of a match with full health.

They stated that one of the reworked iterations of Spidey made him basically unkillable. I don't think people will fully understand how he balances with other characters until he's released into the wild.

Unknown

scottee wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

If you really want to talk about characters as a complete package, then just look at Lazy Cap. He doesn't do any healing, but he generates protect tiles and stuns more effectively than Spiderman after the nerf. He also has more hit points, and one of the strongest red moves in the game. They didn't "normalize" Spideman, because the new normal (as of Lazy characters/Black Panther) is way more playable than what he is now.

Lazy Cap also doesn't allow you to walk out of a match with full health.

They stated that one of the reworked iterations of Spidey made him basically unkillable. I don't think people will fully understand how he balances with other characters until he's released into the wild.

Although I agree we'll get to see soon enough the fact is if he sucks as much as I expect they will either wait forever before doing something about his **** state (XForce assuming they ever make him any good at all) or do nothing at all (Rags). Underwhelming heroes seem to be such a low priority that they are no priority at all.

Spoit

scottee wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

If you really want to talk about characters as a complete package, then just look at Lazy Cap. He doesn't do any healing, but he generates protect tiles and stuns more effectively than Spiderman after the nerf. He also has more hit points, and one of the strongest red moves in the game. They didn't "normalize" Spideman, because the new normal (as of Lazy characters/Black Panther) is way more playable than what he is now.

Lazy Cap also doesn't allow you to walk out of a match with full health.

They stated that one of the reworked iterations of Spidey made him basically unkillable. I don't think people will fully understand how he balances with other characters until he's released into the wild.

I don't see why not? The only way he's stronger than right now is the base yellow heal, which only works out to more healing than now if there are next to no webs on the board

scottee

Spoit wrote:

scottee wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

If you really want to talk about characters as a complete package, then just look at Lazy Cap. He doesn't do any healing, but he generates protect tiles and stuns more effectively than Spiderman after the nerf. He also has more hit points, and one of the strongest red moves in the game. They didn't "normalize" Spideman, because the new normal (as of Lazy characters/Black Panther) is way more playable than what he is now.

Lazy Cap also doesn't allow you to walk out of a match with full health.

They stated that one of the reworked iterations of Spidey made him basically unkillable. I don't think people will fully understand how he balances with other characters until he's released into the wild.

I don't see why not? The only way he's stronger than right now is the base yellow heal, which only works out to more healing than now if there are next to no webs on the board

He's not supposed to be stronger than his previous version in any way. This was a nerf. He was clearly overpowered.

Spoit

scottee wrote:

Spoit wrote:

scottee wrote:

Moon 17 wrote:

If you really want to talk about characters as a complete package, then just look at Lazy Cap. He doesn't do any healing, but he generates protect tiles and stuns more effectively than Spiderman after the nerf. He also has more hit points, and one of the strongest red moves in the game. They didn't "normalize" Spideman, because the new normal (as of Lazy characters/Black Panther) is way more playable than what he is now.

Lazy Cap also doesn't allow you to walk out of a match with full health.

They stated that one of the reworked iterations of Spidey made him basically unkillable. I don't think people will fully understand how he balances with other characters until he's released into the wild.

I don't see why not? The only way he's stronger than right now is the base yellow heal, which only works out to more healing than now if there are next to no webs on the board

He's not supposed to be stronger than his previous version in any way. This was a nerf. He was clearly overpowered.

Yeah because of his blue, which everything else relied on. I don't know why you need to see it in the wild to see that his play is going to be worse? As it is, he's been falling out of favor for months now because he was too slow anyway, so making him even slower isn't going to make him play any better with others

scottee

Spoit wrote:

Yeah because of his blue, which everything else relied on. I don't know why you need to see it in the wild to see that his play is going to be worse? As it is, he's been falling out of favor for months now because he was too slow anyway, so making him even slower isn't going to make him play any better with others

He was partially falling out of favor for metagame reasons (speed). That doesn't mean he wasn't broken. They shouldn't have put level 395 enemies in the game, but they did that partially because Spidey on a mid level team could basically take out enemies 10 times his level.

Also, many players were getting tired of him allowing them to autowin, slow as it may be, so they stopped using him as a change up, to be fair, and to give themselves a challenge.

Of course his play is going to be worse than the previous version. I'll repeat again, this is a nerf. They WANT TO LOWER HIS POWER. If he was running at about 130% effectiveness when compared to other 3*'s, the question now is, did the nerf lower him to 100%, 80%, or something worse.

Spoit

People were hitting level 400 enemies this last PvE without spidey or cmags!

You continue to miss my point. Of kitty course it is a nerf! Do you see a single person arguing otherwise?

My point is, that you don't need to 'see how it works in the wild' because all the reasons people are passing on using him right now are doubled anyway!

scottee

Spoit wrote:

People were hitting level 400 enemies this last PvE without spidey or cmags!

You continue to miss my point. Of kitty course it is a nerf! Do you see a single person arguing otherwise?

My point is, that you don't need to 'see how it works in the wild' because all the reasons people are passing on using him right now are doubled anyway!

You keep acting surprised that he is less powerful than before. So yes, it did look like you were arguing otherwise.

A character can be perfectly balanced but not used much in PVP for metagame reasons. That doesn't make them under powered.

Spidey increases win % and end health at the cost of match speed. Many people find that increase not worth it, mainly in the high level metagame of shield hopping. For players shooting for 1100 instead of 1400, playing dozens of matches in a row without running out of health packs, even if slower, is often a better strategy. It's why OBW is used so much.

Spidey will most definitely not be seen in high level PVP as much anymore. He already wasn't seen as much. That doesn't mean he's useless.

I mention seeing him in the wild because people don't even understand ideal strategy for him yet. How much was OBW disregarded before people realized how Espionage worked, or how much was Hood called weak before people saw the value of his steal? Give it time.

Unknown

Spider-nerf, Spider-nerf
You should give him a wide berth.
Spins a web, costs five blue
He can no longer stun-lock for you.
Look out! Here comes the Spider-nerf.

Is he strong? Listen bud
He's still 3* for what it's worth.
His purple's nerfed, yellow too
Oh tinykitty what have they done to his blue?
Hey there! There goes the Spider-nerf.

In a PvP fight
He's the new three star 'Bags'
If you think that is shite
Wait till they nerf C-Mags!

Spider-nerf, Spider-nerf
Forum-baiting Spider-nerf
Flame wars started, posters rage,
D3 chuckle, they've earned their wage
To them,
MPQ was getting boring
With all the Spidey wh*ring
So they did the Spider-nerf!

(I await HailMary's superior version...)

Spoit

You keep inserting your own point, rather than actually listening to mine. My point is that he fills the exact same niche. Except, you know, worse. A niche that was already being phased out of style

Unknown

People disregarded obw because Espionage was not out yet. There were also discrepencies/errors regarding what her max health was going to be.

People disregarded Hood because you couldn't AP deny c.Storm's passive or Rag's 2AP spam or even Thor and Wolverine that well. Especially not with his terrible health scaling. 85 obw and pre-nerf 85 Spidey had more value than 85 Hood. The game has slowly shifted to longer battles and increased iso rewards, which increased his value and facilitated maxing him.

Also, you hear many times that the game punishes you for playing a lot. It wasn't like this. You could in the past grind to your heart's content, making Spidey a valuable asset to prolonging game time. Now, especially with the refreshes, people play pve in short bursts. You can argue the same with pvp since shields have been introduced. With today's landscape, he's just not that necessary.

scottee

Spoit wrote:

You keep inserting your own point, rather than actually listening to mine. My point is that he fills the exact same niche. Except, you know, worse. A niche that was already being phased out of style

I understand your point. Just because he wasn't being used doesn't mean he wasn't gamebreaking in certain situations. "Eh, since he's only gamebreaking in certain situations and getting abused by less people, let's not balance him."

That was their goal. To give him same role but make him less effective. Again, just because some high level players stopped using him doesn't mean he didn't need a balance.

NorthernPolarity

Im still not seeing what all the fuss is about. I guess my argument can be broken down into two points:
1. Do you think that the old spidey was overpowered? If you cant understand why having a character that literally trivializes every fight in the game, then i dont know what else to say. Seems pretty obvious that a 5 blue spidey / two maxed 2* characters shouldnt easily beat 3 maxed out 3* characters and leave the fight with full health.

2. A pure defensive character that is also bad on defense has no place in the current pvp meta, which is about minimizing retaliations through team comp intimidation and fast wins to minimize time spent unshielded at high point totals.

If you agree with point 1, then you agree that spidey has to be nerfed in some way. If you agree with point 2, then you agree that even the current overpowered spidey is useless in PvP. Put the two together, and you should see that regardless of how Demiurge decides to nerf Spidey, if they want to maintain his original character concept, then he's always going to be useless in PvP unless the meta shifts somehow. While I agree that blue is probably underpowered now and could have cost maybe 4AP or so, I would much rather have a weaker Spidey in the game than the current OP iteration that we have right now. I just feel like all of the complaining and crying is wasted when the usage of the character isn't going to change except for the small percentage of people in the game that actually have a 5 blue Spidey (which is pretty freaking hard to do without spending HP considering how little he's been given out) and do not have a fully developed 3* roster, which I doubt represent most of the users who are complaining.

Unknown

Before the nerf came, I was actually heavily in favour of it and looked forward to it. I suppose it was naive of me to expect a redesign and not just a simple number tweak. That's really what I'm upset about. The fact that it took 4 months makes it even more absurd.

Gold Cap got a bonus on his blue ability. Gold Daken got a brand new blue ability. Spidey got nothing. Are they saving it for a gold version?

daveomite

This is excellent. If you don't have a song writing deal, you should get one. Yous a supastar!