*** Spider-Man (Classic) ***

Unknown

Well hoping they may realize what everyone else can already see when there are basically 0 Spidermen in pvp scenarios. Most people only used him for his healing as is since he was the ONLY option (OBW is a joke in pvp once you've graduated). Buying HP is not a good option until you can do so with ISO.

I could see stunning the whole team 1 round for 5 blue but as the current skill is set up, I'd prefer just about any other blue ability in the game. His pink was butchered to a steaming pile of ****, atleast until they allow his stronger shield tiles to overwrite his weaker shield tiles.

His yellow I actually think was a fair change although I'd still rather use the yellow abilities of nearly every other 3* yellow user and I can probably heal with him in prologue venom again instead of prologue rags

Unknown

bonebreak wrote:

We probably need to just stop talking about characters being OP. It doesnt appear that D3 can make a good decision about the characters people complain about. Who cares about Old Widow.

We should just start talking about which characters need large buffs.

D3, Where is the buff for GSBW, Loki Rag, IM 40, and every 2 star not named thor, widow or ares?

x-force

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Again, look at Spiderman, and then add Falcon. These two would have/still are scary together. Match Purple, get free protect tiles from Spidey, match yellow build up your yellow AP, and add 237 protection to the tiles already out, every yellow match. At this point you are not taking tile match damage. Eventually you get some blue, and you start locking down targets, you aren't taking dmg from matches, lose a protect tile, match purple again, Eventually you can cast Falcon's purple for no dmg, keep matching yellow, eventually you can heal for 2k health which you more than likely have not taken. This is what you can expect. Be ready for Falcon-Man. Sure Spidey took a beating with his super powers, and he is officially a support character now, but thats not bad and neither is he. They can always tweak him in the future.

I couldn't disagree more. That's like saying, look Loki is so awesome (you just have to bring Patch with him).

You're using one support hero to enable a 2nd support hero in your story. Also their blue clashes and purple is redundant. On top it leaves you with 3rd forced random hero 90% of the time as your only damage option. The enemy might not damage you much, but you still have to kill him at some point. There are so many better heroes you could support with Falcon.

Spidey might be still OKish after the nerfs, but OKish just doesn't cut it when heroes like LT, BP or Patch are around. After all you have just 3 slots and they are better filled with others than Spidey.

DD-The-Mighty

locked wrote:

Oh, Moghwyn, you think he meant 'the most commercially important Marvel character'? Silly me, that's so obvious actually.
But not so in MPQ! Here, lazyThor rules, until he's nerfed anyway.

Pretty much. He tends to have a rabid fan-base. They like to show horn him in positions and places he probably shouldn't be in -like the avengers-. Hence why It makes sense that on a larger marvel roster landscape Spider-man is not an offensive force to be reckoned with. because he isn't. But i do agree that the current nerf gives him absolutely no threat factor. At least Rags had that stupid amount of HP, minor board control and the low cost annoyance factor. But to be fair I thought they ruined 2* Thor but here we are months later and he is still the bane of the 2* pvp game. So we'll see.

But Ol Spidey is not looking too good. but at least he isn't broken like before

Unknown

Dear Devs,

Like most hardcore players, I was no fan of Spider-Man, the Hero pre-nerf, was annoying and allowed lower skilled opponents to steam roll good defensive teams. However, this nerf stick you devs use is out of control. Spider-man is UNUSABLE in any PVP or PVE event, all he is good for now is prologue healing. I'm a gamer, I've been a gamer for 30 years, I can't believe you don't have the resources to make him playable, without making him either game breaking or completely useless. I'm saying this as someone who hasn't invested a single HP or Iso-8 on Spidey and I only have 3 covers on him (2 purple and 1 blue).

Also, why is it that all we see are NERFS?! Since I started this game, its been one MEGA NERF after the other. First, Ragnarock became useless, then it was Thorverine, harsh but not so destructive as Rags for Thor, but almost nuclear for Wolvie, then a bunch of minor nerfs, Black Panther (no call for it, at all), Falcon (just released), etc... now its Spider-man. He got hit with the most nuclear NERF ever. You've made him useless, except for prologue heal, without question. Compare what he does with any decent 3* Hero with 15 of any color ap, lets say Lazythor Green (actually 14) you can nuke and evaporate an entire team, PUFF all gone. Now with Spider-man, with 15 ap you get 6 turns of stunning ONE enemy? Seriously, that is your idea of usable and/or funbalanced? Just compare him to 3*s which are actually used Punisher, Lazythor, Psylock, LazyCap, Patch, etc... They have 2 or 3 very good skills, Spidey has none, yellow heal is for prologue, compare it to Lazythors 12 yellow ap ability, he nukes hard and gets a green infusion on the board.

I'd like to call for a block on ALL NERFING after this disaster of a Spidey nerf. He'd be more useless than Rag if not for prologue healing. I'd like to see the buffs on 4*s, both Baglady and X-Force Wolvie, 2* buffs and revamps (BAGMAN anyone?) and buffs to other 3*s such as Rags, Loki and Dr. Doom (give them a 3rd ability and make an event of the 3rd cover launch) and a serious overhaul for Daredevil, he deserves to be awesome and playable. PLEASE BUFF DAREDEVIL, completely change his traps so they are more like Nick Fury and not at all how they are currently.

These buffs would activate your player base and keep you devs busy for over a year, with all the playtesting, programming, event planning and all the other hard work that goes into to updating a game.

Ban the NERFS, start the BUFFS!!! Ban the NERFS, start the BUFFS!!!

Cheers,
NazgulPrime

KillStormFirst

If D3 wanna nerf then fine but consider for the next round of nerfs -- pick the specific problem/complaint and either change the power cost OR change the functionality of the ability and keep the cost the same... but don't do both or overhaul an entire character to balance him/her out. It's not fair to keep changing some of the best characters to make them in line with new and upcoming characters. Real money and the strategic use of XP and HP shouldn't have to be wasted to make a point is what I'm getting at.

Unknown

For the record for prologue heal he's now less useful than OBW. So there goes that too.

Unknown

KillStormFirst wrote:

If D3 wanna nerf then fine but consider for the next round of nerfs -- pick the specific problem/complaint and either change the power cost OR change the functionality of the ability and keep the cost the same... but don't do both or overhaul an entire character to balance him/her out. It's not fair to keep changing some of the best characters to make them in line with new and upcoming characters. Real money and the strategic use of XP and HP shouldn't have to be wasted to make a point is what I'm getting at.

I agree with this except for the use of the word "overhaul." An overhaul suggests redesign or restructuring; this was just a maiming.

Two points to clarify: One, Spiderman was irrelevant to developed PvP. He was good for killing Hulk carelessly, and he could help even out Hood on Hood mirror matches, but most of the time he was just too slow to be a valuable addition to a 3* team. He might have been causing trouble for transitioning teams, but he was not an issue among established players. I don't want to sound callous, I just want to make it clear that it's a very specific subsection of the playerbase that was experiencing PvP issues with Spidy. Granted, the various progression obstacles D3 keeps working into the game might make that a vary large subsection, but it isn't an end-game problem.

Two, those of you who expect this to ease scaling may have missed out on Heroic Oscorp. By the end of Heroic Oscorp my last Daken node boasted level 300 enemies (after I beat them once at level 240-something). My final clear of that node KO'ed all of my guys but IM40, who just barely managed to break 20 blue AP and ballistic salvo over the finish line with around 2k HP left. What was I doing wrong in Heroic Oscorp? I certainly wasn't healing. Outside of a few brief stuns from 2* Cap against Goons and an occasional Ballistic Salvo target who lived to tell the tale, I wasn't stunning. I was taking healthy damage from every fight I entered. So was scaling just functioning as intended? Was this the invisible hand of the community pushing me ever closer to certain ruin?

If the nerf to Spiderman doesn't fix PvP (and above a certain level, it doesn't) and we shouldn't expect it to fix scaling (and according to Heroic Oscorp, we shouldn't), then why is it happening? I'll admit that he trivialized PvE, but to use that as an excuse to basically destroy him as a character seems like an over-reaction. Honestly, this looks more like an attack on healing than anything else. This smacks of greed.

Unknown

Yes, the prenerf spidey blue was overpowered, but it almost had to be to make Spidey useful. If you can't maintain stunlock on one guy with minimal effort then you're just spinning your wheels. Under his new form if you're spending all that time grabbing blue and yellow for stuns and heals then you're doing nothing to defeat the opponent other than match damage which then makes it so you have to keep stunning/healing to just stay alive. You're better off using someone else. It's a shame this is what they came up with after 4 months of planning. At least if you're going to change the abilities this way add a damage component to ATU. It hurts getting hit with a sticky ball of webbing.

I guess the silver lining here is that every match won't be Spidey. I swear the first 8/10 matches I've done in Heavy Metal have all been Spidey based teams. Most of the those with Punisher. The other 2 were OBW.

Unknown

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see this much overreaction on the interwebz, but Polarity is pretty much the only sane guy in this thread right now. It's not that Spiderman's skills have been destroyed, they have been normalized. It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

DD-The-Mighty

UncleSam wrote:

Yes, the prenerf spidey blue was overpowered, but it almost had to be to make Spidey useful. If you can't maintain stunlock on one guy with minimal effort then you're just spinning your wheels. Under his new form if you're spending all that time grabbing blue and yellow for stuns and heals then you're doing nothing to defeat the opponent other than match damage which then makes it so you have to keep stunning/healing to just stay alive. You're better off using someone else. It's a shame this is what they came up with after 4 months of planning. At least if you're going to change the abilities this way add a damage component to ATU. It hurts getting hit with a sticky ball of webbing.

I guess the silver lining here is that every match won't be Spidey. I swear the first 8/10 matches I've done in Heavy Metal have all been Spidey based teams. Most of the those with Punisher. The other 2 were OBW.

ha. 4 months of planning. That's so cute if anyone believes that.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see this much overreaction on the interwebz, but Polarity is pretty much the only sane guy in this thread right now. It's not that Spiderman's skills have been destroyed, they have been normalized. It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

That's the whole point. If they're going to spend 4 months to rework a broken character then make him at least useful. After the nerf he's barely ranks above his alter ego Bagman. He hasn't been normalized. He's been nerfed to oblivion like Ragnarok. He might be useful on a few teams as a third wheel, but most PvP events are really a 2 vs 2 since you have to play with a required character. Would you really choose Spiderman for one of your top 2 characters?

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

I guess I shouldn't be surprised to see this much overreaction on the interwebz, but Polarity is pretty much the only sane guy in this thread right now. It's not that Spiderman's skills have been destroyed, they have been normalized. It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

Normalized? Really? So his powers are in line with other characters of his rarity level that do the same thing? Oh, no, wait--of course they aren't. His healing is in line with 2* OBW's in terms of cost and difficulty of execution, his stunning is worse than basically anyone's but Moonstone, and his protect tile generation is pretty much bottom of the barrel. Being a 5800 health character with three unimpressive abilities and no real damage output doesn't make you normal.

He was OP before. Wouldn't contend that. But your arguing that he's been normalized is just as ludicrous as someone else arguing that he was perfectly fine as he was.

Unknown

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

ha. 4 months of planning. That's so cute if anyone believes that.

Yeah, and to read what IceIX wrote about some of the iterations they went through really provided some insight that the devs really don't know what to do with Spiderman to make him useful and fun. It makes what they did with IW appear genius.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

Two, those of you who expect this to ease scaling may have missed out on Heroic Oscorp. By the end of Heroic Oscorp my last Daken node boasted level 300 enemies (after I beat them once at level 240-something). My final clear of that node KO'ed all of my guys but IM40, who just barely managed to break 20 blue AP and ballistic salvo over the finish line with around 2k HP left. What was I doing wrong in Heroic Oscorp? I certainly wasn't healing. Outside of a few brief stuns from 2* Cap against Goons and an occasional Ballistic Salvo target who lived to tell the tale, I wasn't stunning. I was taking healthy damage from every fight I entered. So was scaling just functioning as intended? Was this the invisible hand of the community pushing me ever closer to certain ruin?

Heroic Oscorp had high scaling probably because there are a lot of level 231 Patches that are more than a match for the opposition, especially followed by the Daken nerf that no longer made Daken borderilne unbeatable once he's past about level 200? Patch was an all around top tier character and all of his advantages are magnified beyond a linear increase for his extra levels. That is, his regen now is enough to withstand even the pretty crazy damage done by opponents. Higher levels means more powerful TBTI and more tiles that belong him for TBTI. You even had a roster that can take advantage of Berserker Rage since it's filled with characters with cheap moves (Psylocke), attack tiles (Psylocke, Storm), or people with great cascade potential (Storm, Thor).

Keep in mind in The Hunt you can easily fight the non Daken nodes up to around level 300 with say OBW/Thor/Captain or HT straight up. In that case they're boosted to 125/171 but it's probably not as helpful as having a single guy who is level 231 who also has regeneration.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

I don't agree with that. The problem is that his Blue at zero web tiles is trash, one web tile is barely usable, and at two web tiles is great. His other two abilities aren't good until you have a few web tiles.

His "particular skillset" even now would be fine - not useless, not broken - if it didn't take so much dang initial investment just to get a web tile or two on the board. He needs some kind of an adjustment so that while you can't effortlessly have web tiles out, it's easier to get at least one out than it is currently.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

I don't agree with that. The problem is that his Blue at zero web tiles is trash, one web tile is barely usable, and at two web tiles is great. His other two abilities aren't good until you have a few web tiles.

His "particular skillset" even now would be fine - not useless, not broken - if it didn't take so much dang initial investment just to get a web tile or two on the board. He needs some kind of an adjustment so that while you can't effortlessly have web tiles out, it's easier to get at least one out than it is currently.

Okay, so he now has (and also previously had) a stun, a heal, and random free protect tiles. So compare each ability to a similar ability in another character.

Who has a similar low cost single target stun? Venom. His costs 4 ap. Spiderman's costs 5 ap. Both stun a single target for 1 turn, but Spiderman may stun for 2 or three turns if web tiles exist on the board. Seems pretty similar. For Venom to stun the entire opposing team it costs 7 ap, but again only lasts a single turn. MBW charges 9 ap for a five turn stun, which also gets the rest of the team for a turn, which is definitely better, but I would still pick Spiderman over MBW in any team comp. Classic Storm has a 4 turn stun, coupled with a massive aoe for 11 ap. Much, much better, but more for the damage than the stun. I would probably pick Classic Storm over Spiderman in most team comps because doing damage is almost always better than not doing damage, but if the damage weren't a factor I would prefer the 5 ap cost to the 11. Daredevil? I don't even remember how much it costs, but it randomly removes an opponent for six turns, which usually equates to the remainder of the battle. I'd much rather have Spiderman than Daredevil in almost any team comp. In my opinion it's not unreasonable to say that Spiderman remains the best stunner in the game.

So for heals - who has a better aoe heal? As a strict heal (not including situational cd tile effects) OBW's tops out lower, so it is worse. But OBW's other abilities are better than Spiderman so she may be preferable in many team comps. Still there are not many healers in the game, so Spiderman fulfills a unique role.

Random free protect tiles? Bullseye. I don't even think I should have to explain why Spiderman overall is better than Bullseye overall.

So Spiderman has three abilities. If you wanted any of those abilities, he is either your best choice or second best choice of character to fulfill that role. How is that not normalized?

The problem everyone seems to be having is that his 'grab bag' of powers are really not that great in the current environment. Stun, heal, protect tiles? Any character that doesn't do damage is basically inferior to every character that does.

scottee

dlaw008 wrote:

The problem everyone seems to be having is that his 'grab bag' of powers are really not that great in the current environment. Stun, heal, protect tiles? Any character that doesn't do damage is basically inferior to every character that does.

I agree with your post. The above quote I believe is a false public perception. No, Spiderman doesn't do any damage. He didn't before either. But I'll take a support with 2 tank/cannons over 3 tank/cannons any day.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

The problem everyone seems to be having is that his 'grab bag' of powers are really not that great in the current environment. Stun, heal, protect tiles? Any character that doesn't do damage is basically inferior to every character that does.

That's more of a problem with AP acceleration. AP acceleration abilty unfairly favors offense. To put things in perspective, suppose my defensive team is Falcon, Invisible Woman, and Spiderman. I put in a secret code that lets me start every fight with 30 blue, yellow, and purple AP and for good measures let's say my team even makes the first move. So my opening move will probably look like Force Bubble, Bird Strike, Invisibility, and Web Bandages, and next turn will be another Bird Strike and Force Bubble now I got about 1500 worth of protection tiles on the board. The other team is totally dead, right? Um, not exactly. Sure they can't possibly do any damage to my team but it's not like they're going to unload their AP consuming moves while there are 1500 worth of protection tiles on the board. They'd obviously just continue doing whatever they normally do and save their offense when the nasty defense stuff is gone. As long as it's still easy to infuse a rather large amount of extra AP, offense will always be favored over defense. Defense is only valuable when game gets bogged down, and that's not happening when you consider how much extra offense is provided by abilities like AR5 or Magnetic FIeld.

Unknown

gamar wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

It's just that suddenly everyone is realizing that his particular skillset isn't very useful unless it is bonkers broken.

I don't agree with that. The problem is that his Blue at zero web tiles is trash, one web tile is barely usable, and at two web tiles is great. His other two abilities aren't good until you have a few web tiles.

His "particular skillset" even now would be fine - not useless, not broken - if it didn't take so much dang initial investment just to get a web tile or two on the board. He needs some kind of an adjustment so that while you can't effortlessly have web tiles out, it's easier to get at least one out than it is currently.

Even with 2 web tiles out he's not that great though. In order to stunlock as suggested by IceX you need 2/3 of your matches to be blue which is an utterly ridiculous thing to expect to happen or bank on. If i've already invested 10 AP why wouldn't I have 2 more and use ShieldBro to stun where I'll have a turn of uptime but only need to find 2 blue every 3 turns to keep on going. If I ever reach enough for a second blue activation (which I would if I was able to make 2/3 of my matches as blue quite quickly) then I can stunlock for 4 blue every 4 rounds rather than 5 every 3 which is a more realistic endeavour. I'm also protect tiles while i'm at it to balance out Spiderman's purple whic is far less reliable since you can't overwrite garbage protect tiles once you have webs up, you need to match them away. Also, just to add to the advantages Shieldbro has I can select and overwrite enemy tiles and/or place my created tile somewhere safe.

Spiderman ONLY has damage mitigation going for him. He does no damage at all, steals no tiles and does nothing else strange (buffing tiles, swapping tile allegiance, overwriting chosen tiles etc). His stun is poor, his protect tile generation is pretty poor which leaves a heal which is no longer huge, costs more and, while you need to use it more often since it does less, you can't really use if you have 3 or more web tiles because it nukes them and they are a nightmare to generate again. I genuinely feel he will be inferior to OBW in all circumstances if you want to have a healer on your team APART from prologue healing. Even then OBW would be better if your Spidey isn't damn near 141 or if the heroes you are healing don't stop her matching blue for steals. If you don't want a healer then he offers nothing else to a level where he'd get picked over any number of other 3* heroes. He has no useful role at all with the skills listed above.

IMO if they had JUST increased his blue to 5 cost he would be a somewhat weak 3* but at least, if a fight dragged on, he could get to 5 web tiles and have a realistic shot at perma stunning 1, or at a stretch 2 heroes. He would have a good heal (if the fight goes long enough) and potentially impressive protect tiles (again if the fight drags on til you've had 25+ blue AP and somehow avoided any of them getting matched/destroyed). No-one was complaining about a 1 blue Spiderman stunlocking their team to death after all.

Before you say perma stunning is bad, even if it's only 1 hero just bear in mind those 25 AP to get your web tiles up could simply have been in another colour and killed that hero off (outside insanely scaled PvE heroes). That's 2 magnetic translocations and change...

@Dlaw Totally disagree with him being the best stunner in the game. MBW's is superior and Cap's is superior (especially lazy cap with the free protect tile.) would also say C Storm's is superior unless the fight is a REALLY long one because Spiderman's total stunning done only overtakes her by a substantial margin at 25 blue AP spent assuming no web tiles AT ALL are matched away (at 22 AP storm has done 8 turns, Spiderman 9) and she's done damage whcih he cannot.

As far as heals OBW's is better per AP spent at lvl 85 unless you are blowing 3 web tiles which cost you 15 AP to make, so Spiderman is only better at healing if you are levelling above 85 (don't know at what point he is better per AP yet)

As for protect tiles, the fact they are "random and free" doesn't mean you only compare him to Bullseye. In fact the random placement and generation is a bad thing. You make a protect tile before a web tile by purple matching yourself or by cascade and you get, at lvl 141, with 5 purple a strength 20 protect tile which occupies one of your possible tiles til it is matched away or destroyed, If you get your web tiles up those protect tiles could be in a matchable position and disappear. I would say even IW is a better protect tile generator, same with L.Cap (by miles).