3.3 Release Notes *Updated (4/3/19)

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Comments

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    Brigby said:
    Just for additional info (which I will also add to the Pre-Release Notes), here is the list of occurrences that will cause the timer to pause for their durations:
    • Waiting on player decision (such as target selection and hand management)
    • Card Visualization
    • Extra Swap
    In addition, it would appear that an extra swap will add extra time to the timer, not just pause it. I will have to ask the team if that also applies to cards like Stitch in Time or Chance for Glory
    Brigby none of that matters. This timer should only apply to the AI not the player. Essentially you have made a feature that restricts one of its redeeming characteristics. 
  • ElfNeedsFood
    ElfNeedsFood Posts: 944 Critical Contributor
    jtwood said:
    I don’t hate this timer out of the gate. I’d like to see how it plays out before judging it. 
    I with you here, I'll withhold judgement until I see it in action, so I'm only cautiously pessimistic...  This one does feel like an odd way to "fix" loops...

  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    starfall said:
    My friend has just reminded me that in fact you already CAN forfeit the game of your opponent is looping.

    So, the problem would seem to be just ending your own loop? My friend has also reminded me that you can bring your own loop to a close by including cards which require confirmation in the loop, but this is not a useful solution for two reasons:
    1. You might not be able to build your deck with such cards, and
    2. Even if you include, say, a Talent of the Telepath in your looping deck, it may still take 20 minutes for you to get your loop to stop.
    I dont agree with this 2nd part. Yeah in the beginning it gets messy but you but tweak the deck to accommodate your needs. 

    Ending your own loops more effectively is using more confirmation cards or changing all to most cards to have confirmations.  However, sometimes i like my loops not requiring interaction; so that i can use that 10-20 seconds to do something else. Not the case for everyone of course . But my point is there needs to be balance. Certain cards like Apex need confirmation, and as more confirmation required cards are implemented, it will ease things and balance.

    Whereas the 2 extremes are sitting and confirming through tons of cards vs not interacting but waiting more. So it just needs to be balanced by appropriate cards having appropriate confirmations abd then the player has the freedom yo design the deck as they see fit - less interaction or more interaction 
  • Shaaw
    Shaaw Posts: 15 Just Dropped In
    edited March 2019
    WRT the timer... I'm simply shocked at how a development team could come up with such an unbelievably bad idea to correct a relatively minor problem. This seriously takes out the most fun part of the game (building strong combo interactions). I honestly don't feel I even want to play now. 

    //Removed Insults -Brigby
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    Matthew said:
    Brakkis said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Thanks for providing all of this in-depth perspective and feedback of the loop system. I'll be sure to pass that along to the team for review.

    While I can't guarantee that any changes can be made prior to the 3.3 update going live, as I believe the build has already been submitted to 1st party vendors, I will definitely talk to them about revisiting the system and seeing where things can be adjusted.

    This right here is why things like this should be brought up before the patch is submitted and it's too late to make any kind of changes. This was a solution to a relatively minor problem in the overall scheme of the game and it was extremely poorly thought out. There are far superior methods of fixing this, again - minor, problem that don't outright tank an entire playstyle.
    One thing I forgot to mention in my own earlier post is mentioned here by Brakkis. The overall impact of this problem, however annoying it is, is minimal at the absolute worst. Personally I can't even remember the last time I've been caught by Greg in a loop of any sort. That illustrates that they either don't occur with any serious degree of frequency, or that when they do occur, I can simply hit the "quit" button to end them, or most likely both of these things. This decision makes it look like you guys heard a vocal minority complaining about something and decided to implement a nuclear option to address it. Terrible decision, and I really, really, really hope it is reversed.
    i just want to add at lesser card collections / newer players get stuck in overpowered loops more frequently. Veterans, on the other hand, we have strong enough collections to counteract these loop decks by speed bashing the AI, usually through a loop. Therefore, i do believe it is a problem but the way they addressed it was terrible.

    I don't understand why this happened, other than:
    1) there is no strategist at this company or dev team
    2) nobody seems to really play MTGPQ at this company or the dev team (or at least not enough)
    3) they don't consider the possible consequences with each change
    4) things feel rushed to meet deadlines so they have terrible scheduling to ensure a quality update/product
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    edited March 2019
    Tilwin90 said:
    Oh boy... Here it goes. Tilwin going berserk at the team. Actually read this message three times before posting. Would love to say it was a calculated and well thought move from me... 

    The whole timer business is not the best thing Oktagon could come up with so far.

    No, seriously. This solution reminds me of the "measuring the complexity of an algorithm through execution time" naive approach... Only worse. 

    Why would you pick a solution based on time when the game is crippling slow right now and everyone complains  about the crippling speed of animations, the pointless lenghtiness of many effects and the occasional 30 minute matches that dont even rely on combos??? Not to mention the performance, which with this solution you most likely made even worse. 

    Pick number of actions per turn. Do this to Greg only if you must. Allow the player to force end their actions (obviously not Greg's). SO MANY OTHER WAYS TO DO THIS. 
    ..... 

    You just killed my decks. Period. Last B4T event I finally killed Azor turn one. With overpowered opponents like that the practical solution was finding a way to loop them to death ASAP since the more turns you have the bigger the disadvantage and the longer and more painful the matches. Now that's done.  

    If this timer stops my combo decks from working any longer I am DONE. D-O-N-E!!! 

    Now can't wait to see those legacy balance changed they had in store for us...

    And for everyone saying I am too rude to the devs since they "only do what they are told": NO! Everyone in the team is responsible for and should put user experience at the top of priorities and focuses if they want a quality product. Was that also utopic of me? I'm sorry... I'll just go back and play my combo decks... While I still can... Before this change...

    Oh yeah, was waiting for kaya, she also sucks big time. 

    //Removed Insults -Brigby
    i actually really liked this comment...
  • Tilwin90
    Tilwin90 Posts: 662 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2019
    Azerack said:
    Brigby said:
    Hi Everyone. Thanks for providing all of this in-depth perspective and feedback of the loop system. I'll be sure to pass that along to the team for review.

    While I can't guarantee that any changes can be made prior to the 3.3 update going live, as I believe the build has already been submitted to 1st party vendors, I will definitely talk to them about revisiting the system and seeing where things can be adjusted.
    Just saying, I'm guessing the IDEA was to help minimize the buggy infinite loops, not hurt our gameplay, but yeah, seems like the latter was done, not the former.
    On a more serious note, what about a snooze button then? As long as it doesn't break the game... 
    Or you know, just a button that appears once the timer has gone and allows to "stop actions". This way you give the players an OPTION to end the action turn without doing it automatically... Just as long as it's not put in a popup... to force you to press it...

    //Removed Insults -Brigby
  • rafalele
    rafalele Posts: 876 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2019
    Updated cause I just have realized that the timer starts after gem matches so you can forget this:

    @Brigby Do you realize that a timer is much worse for a human player than fo the IA? IA is going to react faster than us (better or worse but faster).

    We play in real life with things happenning around us, pause the game is an answer but when you return to it, you will not remember the state of things in battlefield.

    Players would/should like to read cards in battlefield and in hand to think about the correct moves to be done. Newer players would not be able to even think about an answer after a IA's cascade turn, neither will I.

    Speed objectives will be very difficult/lucky to achieve and you are not going to review them in events before the timer release as you have not done with summon/cast objectives after changing the way they worked (without any advise of course).

    You have implemented a system to prevent infinite loops that afects to all the playing system and not only infinite loops.

    A timer in players turn will prevent infinite loops just because it will prevent players to play at all.

    I have asked for a counter to allow players to stop loopings when desired and I am getting a  timer to stop playing.

    I should have wait to write this after having played with the new timer yo see how it really works, but the problem is that if it you release it as it is now, we should be playing with it unless for a month, because though you will realize it is not good for anyone you will not be able to change it faster.
  • Froggy
    Froggy Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    I suspect the devs are embarrassed by the fact that they never know if their new sets will result in some sort of infinite loop.

    We had Baral, Waterveil, Prism Array, Rishkar’s Expertise, etc. and most recently we had the Divine Visitation combo with Murder Investigation and/or Ajani’s Last Stand.

    These we’re silly errors that the devs had not foreseen. But it became very clear to the player base from day one that this was a problem (I pulled Divine Visitation a few days into release and my first try with it was an infinite loop).

    Thus I suspect they set up this strange and violently destructive “rule” (which violates the rules of paper Magic) to prevent this embarrassment from recurring with each new set.

    What they don’t care to realize is that the players never asked for it and they frankly don’t want it at all. We don’t care if the devs make a mistake (we do, but not as much when we know it was not intentional). We just want to be able to play - casual, occasionally, competitively, etc).

    @Brigby if it is really too late to change this loop challenge, then make the devs change the timer to something like 3 minutes while you sort it out. That is something that can be done.

    So instead of 18 seconds, make it 180 seconds.

    This MUST be done. It is not a request. It is a demand.

    And the easiest immediate solution for you/the devs.

    Thanks.
  • Froggy
    Froggy Posts: 511 Critical Contributor
    Note to everyone reading through this thread:

    The timer starts when a loops begin. Better stated, when you’ve made your gem match and your card sequences begin.

    Reading the board, reading cards, going through your hand, looking at supports, etc. does not count on the timer.

    Extra turns stop the timer.
  • bumstuff
    bumstuff Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    This is just hilariously bad.

    It seems so painfully obvious that nobody developing this game has played it for any significant length of time.

    Wizards employs very talented players to help design cards and sets. Maybe try that? Or, you know, maybe try asking the people who play it at a high level?
  • rafalele
    rafalele Posts: 876 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2019
    Froggy said:
    Note to everyone reading through this thread:

    The timer starts when a loops begin. Better stated, when you’ve made your gem match and your card sequences begin.

    Reading the board, reading cards, going through your hand, looking at supports, etc. does not count on the timer.

    Extra turns stop the timer.
    Thank you, I was so ... that did not realized it.
  • Thuran
    Thuran Posts: 456 Mover and Shaker
    Fortunately, the cycling combo ignores the timer altogether, since you never match a gem to go infinite.

    So you can still manage dumb speed objectives in pve...in legacy
  • rafalele
    rafalele Posts: 876 Critical Contributor
    edited March 2019
    @Brigby as the timer to prevent infinite loops (prevents also noninfinite loops) has been made for players, could be the timer value a parameter that we can set in the game? In this way none can say that the game does not work as desired.

    Please, 18 seconds are so few seconds. I have just tried and after making gem match and full loading a Blue Sun Zenith with mana it takes more or less 18 seconds to full my hand with cards and fill them with mana (I have turned on the option to reduce animations). So loading a Blue Sun Zenith will end my turn? Perhaps timer pauses while showing each card loaded in my hand.

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