kitty and grocket and the changing of the pvp meta

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  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    0_efx_0 said:
    jredd said:
    gambit was nerfed cause he auto generated ap. kitty auto boosts specials. grocket auto places those specials. maybe they should un-nerf gambit, change him back to his old auto ap generating self. and oml for that matter too. at any rate, the reasons for nerfing gambit were for the same type of thing that kitty and grocket do together. if you can't see it i'm not sure what to tell you. 
    Gambit used to take out two 5 stars single handed. Kitty needs another character to help her, how would she need a nerf? 
    because when she is paired with rocket, she takes out 3 5* or 2 5* with the featured character in 3-5 turns unless you get lucky. i never won or lost a match in the age of gambit in 3-5 turns. 
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:

    jredd said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Oh and Grocket needing a nerf is also laughable to me. He does one thing really really well.  Places strong strikes. Which allows others like Nico, Guardians, Medusa, Kitty, etc. to really shine.  His other two powers are pretty weak compared to others in his tier and once matched away, he’s a sitting duck who brings little else to the fight. Grocket is absolutely fine as is.  No combo of his is unbeatable and he just makes the game FASTER. I think people don’t know what they want sometimes. Hate the grind, but want to slow the game down by taking away a character who helps many people (transitioners especially) speed up their clears.  
    here's the thing, i actually really like the gritty combo for pve. been using them way more than thorkoye the last while. but they are pvp killers. there's no way you can tell me you get through pvp as quickly or easily having to try to get through 100% of teams running them defensively. 
    I joined the 5* tier this week. So I can. 
    you joined the 5* tier this week and you blaze though pvp? do tell?
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited January 2019
    Colognoisseur said:
    I see this current PvP meta as a rock paper scissors meta. The first we've had since 5*'s.

    Gritty beats Thorkoye
    BSSM beats Gritty
    Thorkoye beats BSSM

    That is a healthy meta I would hope the devs do nothing to change it.
    who do you pair with bssm? do you go with thor, okoye, kitty or someone else?
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    OML was nerfed 1.5 years after his release and Gambit was nerfed 9 months after his release. Kitty Pryde has been around for about 4 months. If the devs plan to nerf Kitty Pryde, it's going to be another 6 months wait or more.

    I think it would be better, or more productive, for you to share your roster so that the community can brainstorm ideas on how to counter Gritty, based on what you have currently. You could share how you usually play PvP and what your goals in PvP are.


  • BigSoftieFF
    BigSoftieFF Posts: 454 Mover and Shaker
    edited January 2019
    jredd said:
    Colognoisseur said:
    I see this current PvP meta as a rock paper scissors meta. The first we've had since 5*'s.

    Gritty beats Thorkoye
    BSSM beats Gritty
    Thorkoye beats BSSM

    That is a healthy meta I would hope the devs do nothing to change it.
    who do you pair with bssm? do you go with thor, okoye, kitty or someone else?
    Honestly it doesn’t matter because without the strikes that team is made up of basically fat 3*’s.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    HoundofShadow said:
    OML was nerfed 1.5 years after his release and Gambit was nerfed 9 months after his release. Kitty Pryde has been around for about 4 months. If the devs plan to nerf Kitty Pryde, it's going to be another 6 months wait or more.

    I think it would be better, or more productive, for you to share your roster so that the community can brainstorm ideas on how to counter Gritty, based on what you have currently. You could share how you usually play PvP and what your goals in PvP are.


    is there a way to upload it? i have 14 champed 5* (surfer, oml, and phoenix are the only older ones. my bssm is 2/5/1). all 4* are champed except domino, bishop, prowler and the limited characters.  
  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    You need to register and create an account.

    https://mpq.gamependium.com

    I think this is a website created by one of the posters here. 
  • 0_efx_0
    0_efx_0 Posts: 236 Tile Toppler
    edited January 2019
    jredd said:
    0_efx_0 said:
    jredd said:
    gambit was nerfed cause he auto generated ap. kitty auto boosts specials. grocket auto places those specials. maybe they should un-nerf gambit, change him back to his old auto ap generating self. and oml for that matter too. at any rate, the reasons for nerfing gambit were for the same type of thing that kitty and grocket do together. if you can't see it i'm not sure what to tell you. 
    Gambit used to take out two 5 stars single handed. Kitty needs another character to help her, how would she need a nerf? 
    because when she is paired with rocket, she takes out 3 5* or 2 5* with the featured character in 3-5 turns unless you get lucky. i never won or lost a match in the age of gambit in 3-5 turns. 
    Not a very good reason; only because she needs a teammate, whereas Gambit did not. You’re not really seeing both sides of the coin here.

    There are easy ways to take her out and that’s with Balck suit Spidey, I don’t believe you would be complaining if you had him champed.

    When Gambit was around, there weren’t any characters out to balance a battle against him.
  • Zalasta
    Zalasta Posts: 285 Mover and Shaker
    As someone that's been using Gritty exclusively in PVP & simulator, let me assure you that my defensive loss rate is similar to what it was prior. The only difference I've seen is fewer defensive battles. For myself, I'll go after Gritty teams with my Gritty team, mostly because they're common and have the highest points attached to them. I've lost some battles, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

    People are always asking to make older characters more relevant, and Kitty has done just that. I need a couple of covers to complete my BSS, and then Gritty will be even more easily dealt with. 
  • Richyyy
    Richyyy Posts: 305 Mover and Shaker
    I can understand some of the concerns about the team, but I haven't really experienced the 'Gritty is all I see!', personally. Maybe it's a fluke of a certain level of MMR, but with 11 champed 5*s (none higher than lvl460), I consistently hit 900 in PvP with minimal losses while fighting zero Gritty teams. I see some sprinkled in, but they're far from the only option to fight, and I'm not one of those people who sits there hitting Skip for hours. Is it trying to fight for 1200 and then for placement where you see nothing but Gritty? Because if so, well, that's the difficult top-end of that part of the game. Shouldn't it be difficult and/or cost health packs to win up there?
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    jredd said:
    Daredevil217 said:

    jredd said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Oh and Grocket needing a nerf is also laughable to me. He does one thing really really well.  Places strong strikes. Which allows others like Nico, Guardians, Medusa, Kitty, etc. to really shine.  His other two powers are pretty weak compared to others in his tier and once matched away, he’s a sitting duck who brings little else to the fight. Grocket is absolutely fine as is.  No combo of his is unbeatable and he just makes the game FASTER. I think people don’t know what they want sometimes. Hate the grind, but want to slow the game down by taking away a character who helps many people (transitioners especially) speed up their clears.  
    here's the thing, i actually really like the gritty combo for pve. been using them way more than thorkoye the last while. but they are pvp killers. there's no way you can tell me you get through pvp as quickly or easily having to try to get through 100% of teams running them defensively. 
    I joined the 5* tier this week. So I can. 
    you joined the 5* tier this week and you blaze though pvp? do tell?
    Didn’t say I blaze through the 5* tier. I said I go through PVP as quickly and easily as before. I’ve only ever known a 5* meta with Gritty as part of it. I don’t like using her too often myself as it’s too healthpack intensive to climb with. Plus my 4* Grocket is nowhere near max champed. I try to throw it up on defense but still get smacked by all sorts of teams. 

    You basically have all the meta characters if you have 14 champs and mostly all new characters. And you seriously can’t beat Kitty? Can’t have Thor blow up the board, or Dazzler remove strikes, or  or Daredevil steal them, or Deadpool clap back, or Okoye match them and heal, or Daredevil (again) match them and heal??  Or bonus Bishop to stun her, or Prowler to steal or IW Spidey to get more Black Suit covers? You don’t have BSSM (who is available in tokens literally right now) or your own Kitty so we should nerf the character?  Also how is it remotely possible to lose all three characters in three turns? Are you avoiding matching the strikes or playing all unboosted  3* characters or something?
    have you never had a cascade go against you when the strike tiles add 10k+ to each match 3? 4-5 matches in one cascade = all characters downed at once. do you even play this game?
  • fight4thedream
    fight4thedream GLOBAL_MODERATORS Posts: 1,975 Chairperson of the Boards
    ***Mod Mode: ON***

    Things are getting a little heated in here. Please stick to the topic at hand and refrain from making statements that call out your fellow players. Failure to do so will result in the issuing of warnings and locking of this thread. Consider this a friendly reminder to keep your arguments on topic and civil. Thank you.

    ***Mod Mode: OFF***
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    jredd said:
    0_efx_0 said:
    Nope she’s a fair character. Gambit was not...no nerf needed


    gritty - if you don't get lucky and clear the strike tiles within a few turns you have no chance. 

    not that you really made an argument, but maybe if you have one, now's the time.
    No there are lots of counter teams to gritty.  Even at4* level thing Xfdp have no problems with gritty.

    agree the most obvious and easiest solution is clear the tiles.  But you can reflect steal etc..

    And don’t forget any team that beats a 450kitty/370grocket such as 370thing/xfdp is also gonna be a big deterrent to 450 thorkoye.

    kitty just means you can use a wider part of your roster on offense and defense
  • Colognoisseur
    Colognoisseur Posts: 806 Critical Contributor
    edited January 2019
    jredd said:
    Colognoisseur said:
    I see this current PvP meta as a rock paper scissors meta. The first we've had since 5*'s.

    Gritty beats Thorkoye
    BSSM beats Gritty
    Thorkoye beats BSSM

    That is a healthy meta I would hope the devs do nothing to change it.
    who do you pair with bssm? do you go with thor, okoye, kitty or someone else?
    I’ve found Thor to be a great partner especially helping by getting green. Daredevil is another great choice because his purple stuns and steals those buffed tiles that do nothing to you you can feed Gritty some of their own medicine. As mentioned in another reply any of the mid-tier and above 5* work with bssm against gritty because it is not a high health team.
  • zippee
    zippee Posts: 27 Just Dropped In
    How about buffing somebody to counter her, like banner hulk ( passive: if the other team has more than 2 special tiles on the board he smashes the remain special tiles) (if the other team has someone with more health than him he smashes X amount of tiles every turn) He starts the match as hulk then turns into  banner after 3 turns. (the turns are based on how many covers you have for that certain color. Hulk needs some love!
  • Phumade
    Phumade Posts: 2,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    zippee said:
    How about buffing somebody to counter her, like banner hulk ( passive: if the other team has more than 2 special tiles on the board he smashes the remain special tiles) (if the other team has someone with more health than him he smashes X amount of tiles every turn) He starts the match as hulk then turns into  banner after 3 turns. (the turns are based on how many covers you have for that certain color. Hulk needs some love!
    A lot of chars already counter her.  Depending on whatever team the opponent  sets up.  You can easily setup 2 4* combos that counter her.

    the way you counter kitty is run combos that scale faster or reflect faster than kitty.    There are lots of combo that can do that.

    consider this perspective.  Kitty feels overpowering because she’s has fast passives that can work with almost anyone.  So you need an even wider array of chars to counter her.

    that seems hard if you only have 1/2 to 3/4 of the various tiers covered.  But in the context of the universe,  I.e. rosters with ALL 4* over 300,  there are near infinite ways to counter a 450kitty.  That may seem unfair to newer players, but it is what it is.  

    No matter what combo kitty you put out.  I can tell you a 370/370 4* combo to beat it.
    in the gambit era,  their was no counter to gambit except a similar sized gambit.
  • jredd
    jredd Posts: 1,387 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil217 said:
    jredd said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    jredd said:
    Daredevil217 said:

    jredd said:
    Daredevil217 said:
    Oh and Grocket needing a nerf is also laughable to me. He does one thing really really well.  Places strong strikes. Which allows others like Nico, Guardians, Medusa, Kitty, etc. to really shine.  His other two powers are pretty weak compared to others in his tier and once matched away, he’s a sitting duck who brings little else to the fight. Grocket is absolutely fine as is.  No combo of his is unbeatable and he just makes the game FASTER. I think people don’t know what they want sometimes. Hate the grind, but want to slow the game down by taking away a character who helps many people (transitioners especially) speed up their clears.  
    here's the thing, i actually really like the gritty combo for pve. been using them way more than thorkoye the last while. but they are pvp killers. there's no way you can tell me you get through pvp as quickly or easily having to try to get through 100% of teams running them defensively. 
    I joined the 5* tier this week. So I can. 
    you joined the 5* tier this week and you blaze though pvp? do tell?
    Didn’t say I blaze through the 5* tier. I said I go through PVP as quickly and easily as before. I’ve only ever known a 5* meta with Gritty as part of it. I don’t like using her too often myself as it’s too healthpack intensive to climb with. Plus my 4* Grocket is nowhere near max champed. I try to throw it up on defense but still get smacked by all sorts of teams. 

    You basically have all the meta characters if you have 14 champs and mostly all new characters. And you seriously can’t beat Kitty? Can’t have Thor blow up the board, or Dazzler remove strikes, or  or Daredevil steal them, or Deadpool clap back, or Okoye match them and heal, or Daredevil (again) match them and heal??  Or bonus Bishop to stun her, or Prowler to steal or IW Spidey to get more Black Suit covers? You don’t have BSSM (who is available in tokens literally right now) or your own Kitty so we should nerf the character?  Also how is it remotely possible to lose all three characters in three turns? Are you avoiding matching the strikes or playing all unboosted  3* characters or something?
    have you never had a cascade go against you when the strike tiles add 10k+ to each match 3? 4-5 matches in one cascade = all characters downed at once. do you even play this game?
    To answer your last question, I do. I just told you I transitioned to the 5* game. 

    You said you get taken out in 3-4 turns the first time; and now it’s 4-5 turns.  You kind of made my point right there which is I think you’re using hyperbole in the face of facts to convince people she should be nerfed (which is why I focused on losing in 3 turns; and it appears you backed off that claim a bit).  So to not get this thread shut down or us warned, I’ll just stick with the facts.

    A 4-5 match cascade at 10k each is 40-50k. That’s not enough to take out one of my champed 5s. Looking at them most are around 60k health. I guess it’s theoretically possible (though by no means a regulatory) to lose in three turns to three gigantic cascades of 6+ matches in a row, but you’ll likely lose to ANY team that gets that kind of jump on you, with or without strikes. The Gritty teams will murder you with match damage, but not do a whole lot with 18 matches worth of AP (which is why they suck if you remove their tiles). A Thorkoye team won’t do as much match damage without the strikes, but will do a whole heck of a lot more damage with all that AP. Each team has their own unique strategy to both play and beat them. It’s what makes the game fun and interesting. I’m really sorry you can’t beat the team, lose in 3 turns, and don’t find it enjoyable yourself. That’s the honest truth. No snark. But I don’t think a really good character should be changed because one person doesn’t like playing it and doesn’t believe they can counter it. I am however glad this thread exists as it’s more or less you arguing solo against a bunch of people (I admire your persistence) because I imagine any developer who reads this would see way more praise of a well-designed character than they would concern about a broken one. If I was one of them reading this I’d feel really good about my design work on this one. And they should!
    remember though, by turn 3, which is when, if you haven't been able to remove enough of the strike tiles, match damage is boosted around or over 10K (3k + per turn for a champed kitty), you've already taken some damage, so you're probably not at full health. also, match 4's and 5's and crits increase the damage. i literally lost a match on turn 3. it was once, but it's not impossible.

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