*** Doctor Doom (Classic) ***

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Comments

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    seems like with all the changes, doom's powers in order of importance are: purpleflag.png > blueflag.png > blackflag.png

    I'm running 5/3/5 and have no desire to downgrade his black. I've seen very few instances where having the extra tile or three converted would've immediately helped me. Similar situation to Cyclops, who I also run 5/3/5. The damage massively outweighs a extra couple tiles converted.

    Kamala OTOH i run 3/5/5, because the extra tile conversion is worth more (to me) than the small extra health burst. The variability in color also gives it a lot more utility.

    The big difference between Cyke and Doom is instead of going from 6 to 8 for 3 vs 5 covers Doom goes from 8 to 100%. It may not make a huge difference most of the time, but it's enough for me to have Doom at 5 covers for his conversion and Cyke only at 3. Also Doom's Black is sometimes difficult to manage with 6 attack tiles anyway. You can hardly ever get 6 separate unmatchable reds on a board, especially now with so many ways to ADD red to a board, it's just not going to hold up long term. It's like the reason you take 3 in Storm's blackflag.png . It's great for a couple turns, but both 3 and 5 blackflag.png wind up being reduced to basically the same number of attack.png tiles over a few turns. So why invest in something that won't last vs something that can help accelerate powers.
    raisinbman wrote:
    I guess I was a bit vague. I was more referring to the fact that Iron Fist makes blackflag.png for nothing so really, if anything, you want doom for his purpleflag.png.
    He doesn't make black from nothing, he makes it from purple, making him a less than ideal partner for a 5 purpleflag.png Doom. In fact, if you were to run IF with Doom you would almost certainly want a 5/5/3 version of Doom and just use IF to cycle Purple into either attack tiles or chunks of 4k damage, which is basically what you are getting from Doom Purple anyway (8k damage for 10 AP, ish).
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Lerysh wrote:
    GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:
    raisinbman wrote:
    seems like with all the changes, doom's powers in order of importance are: purpleflag.png > blueflag.png > blackflag.png

    I'm running 5/3/5 and have no desire to downgrade his black. I've seen very few instances where having the extra tile or three converted would've immediately helped me. Similar situation to Cyclops, who I also run 5/3/5. The damage massively outweighs a extra couple tiles converted.

    Kamala OTOH i run 3/5/5, because the extra tile conversion is worth more (to me) than the small extra health burst. The variability in color also gives it a lot more utility.

    The big difference between Cyke and Doom is instead of going from 6 to 8 for 3 vs 5 covers Doom goes from 8 to 100%. It may not make a huge difference most of the time, but it's enough for me to have Doom at 5 covers for his conversion and Cyke only at 3. Also Doom's Black is sometimes difficult to manage with 6 attack tiles anyway. You can hardly ever get 6 separate unmatchable reds on a board, especially now with so many ways to ADD red to a board, it's just not going to hold up long term. It's like the reason you take 3 in Storm's blackflag.png . It's great for a couple turns, but both 3 and 5 blackflag.png wind up being reduced to basically the same number of attack.png tiles over a few turns. So why invest in something that won't last vs something that can help accelerate powers.
    raisinbman wrote:
    I guess I was a bit vague. I was more referring to the fact that Iron Fist makes blackflag.png for nothing so really, if anything, you want doom for his purpleflag.png.
    He doesn't make black from nothing, he makes it from purple, making him a less than ideal partner for a 5 purpleflag.png Doom. In fact, if you were to run IF with Doom you would almost certainly want a 5/5/3 version of Doom and just use IF to cycle Purple into either attack tiles or chunks of 4k damage, which is basically what you are getting from Doom Purple anyway (8k damage for 10 AP, ish).
    You'd honestly pair IF with Doom?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    No, I wouldn't. You are the one that brought up IF in your post about your vague post of vagueness. Somehow suggesting that since IF brings all the black to the yard, Doom's black is worthless somehow? I dunno, your post was vague.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    edited May 2015
    I wonder if existence of Iron Fist changes how people see his Black/Blue now. I personally don't feel that using him as a blacktile.png battery is worth it anymore as pretty much any hero that you want blacktile.png for will pair much better with IF - XF, BP, Cage, Cyke, even Colossus if you feel adventurous. And then Mystique who can work with IF but not Doom.

    For difference between 4 and 6 'demons', I don't buy idea that because you have more chance of them matched right away, having less of them makes no difference. If you have 6 redtile.png tiles and AI matched 3 of them, 5 rank blackflag.png will still have 3 attack.png while 3 rank blackflag.png might have 3, 2 or even 1 attack.png left. Having not enough clear redtile.png tiles is different matter, but similar to DD or Elektra, you just don't bring him against Daken/Blade.

    And it's not like 5 blueflag.png was a must in first place, difference between 8 (9) tiles and all tiles only matter if there is more than 8 (9) tiles up after you collected 9 bluetile.png yourself, and if on top of that your enemy uses it as well it's almost never. If we get a proper bluetile.png generating ability (convert/add randomly style like Cyke/Khan) that might change, and also possibly create another infinite loop, but as of yet I'm not sold on maxing it.

    So in the end I'd go 5/3/5 for Doom that can stand on his own and maybe 3/5/5 if you don't have 5 purpleflag.pngicon_ironfist.png yet and got very good blackflag.png users.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Lerysh wrote:
    No, I wouldn't. You are the one that brought up IF in your post about your vague post of vagueness. Somehow suggesting that since IF brings all the black to the yard, Doom's black is worthless somehow? I dunno, your post was vague.
    My point was IF produces blackflag.png for free?
    Nivrax wrote:
    I wonder if existence of Iron Fist changes how people see his Black/Blue now. I personally don't feel that using him as a blacktile.png battery is worth it anymore as pretty much any hero that you want blacktile.png for will pair much better with IF - XF, BP, Cage, Cyke, even Colossus if you feel adventurous. And then Mystique who can work with IF but not Doom.

    For difference between 4 and 6 'demons', I don't buy idea that because you have more chance of them matched right away, having less of them makes no difference. If you have 6 redtile.png tiles and AI matched 3 of them, 5 rank blackflag.png will still have 3 attack.png while 3 rank blackflag.png might have 3, 2 or even 1 attack.png left. Having not enough clear redtile.png tiles is different matter, but similar to DD or Elektra, you just don't bring him against Daken/Blade.

    And it's not like 5 blueflag.png was a must in first place, difference between 8 (9) tiles and all tiles only matter if there is more than 8 (9) tiles up in first place after you collected 9 bluetile.png yourself, and if on top of that your enemy uses it as well it's almost never. If we get a proper bluetile.png generating ability (convert/add randomly style like Cyke/Khan) that might change, and also possibly create another infinite loop, but as of yet I'm not sold on maxing it.

    So in the end I'd go 5/3/5 for Doom that can stand on his own and maybe 3/5/5 if you don't have 5 purpleflag.pngicon_ironfist.png yet and got very good blackflag.png users.

    This person gets it
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Nivrax wrote:
    I wonder if existence of Iron Fist changes how people see his Black/Blue now. I personally don't feel that using him as a blacktile.png battery is worth it anymore as pretty much any hero that you want blacktile.png for will pair much better with IF - XF, BP, Cage, Cyke, even Colossus if you feel adventurous. And then Mystique who can work with IF but not Doom.

    For difference between 4 and 6 'demons', I don't buy idea that because you have more chance of them matched right away, having less of them makes no difference. If you have 6 redtile.png tiles and AI matched 3 of them, 5 rank blackflag.png will still have 3 attack.png while 3 rank blackflag.png might have 3, 2 or even 1 attack.png left. Having not enough clear redtile.png tiles is different matter, but similar to DD or Elektra, you just don't bring him against Daken/Blade.

    And it's not like 5 blueflag.png was a must in first place, difference between 8 (9) tiles and all tiles only matter if there is more than 8 (9) tiles up after you collected 9 bluetile.png yourself, and if on top of that your enemy uses it as well it's almost never. If we get a proper bluetile.png generating ability (convert/add randomly style like Cyke/Khan) that might change, and also possibly create another infinite loop, but as of yet I'm not sold on maxing it.

    So in the end I'd go 5/3/5 for Doom that can stand on his own and maybe 3/5/5 if you don't have 5 purpleflag.pngicon_ironfist.png yet and got very good blackflag.png users.

    Did you not see the math post up there by Phaserhawk? That attack tiles have turn over is not a question, it happens. It happens faster when you have more. It makes the relative power difference between 3 blackflag.png and 5 blackflag.png very small. While the relative difference between 3 blueflag.png and 5 blueflag.png CAN be small, it can also be vast. 3/5/5 is perfectly capable of standing on his own as well, and not just feeding others.

    Like I said, the difference between Doom and Cyke's relative tile conversion abilities isn't big. But going from 8 to 100% is worth a lot, where going from 6 to 8 is worth very little. Also Cyke's other abilities are just way to good not to max, and Doom has one that can easily be left at 3 with very little loss.
    raisinbman wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:
    No, I wouldn't. You are the one that brought up IF in your post about your vague post of vagueness. Somehow suggesting that since IF brings all the black to the yard, Doom's black is worthless somehow? I dunno, your post was vague.
    My point was IF produces blackflag.png for free?

    Um... Wat? Actually, never mind. I stopped caring.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Lerysh wrote:
    Did you not see the math post up there by Phaserhawk? That attack tiles have turn over is not a question, it happens. It happens faster when you have more. It makes the relative power difference between 3 blackflag.png and 5 blackflag.png very small. While the relative difference between 3 blueflag.png and 5 blueflag.png CAN be small, it can also be vast. 3/5/5 is perfectly capable of standing on his own as well, and not just feeding others.
    In the end, where do you value Doom's black, and how much more likely are you to play him vs. another character with black.

    I read his posts, only found math that maxing Purple is must (I agree), maybe I'll have to dig deeper. But in one of them he even lists characters to pair and Doom build, and where there wasn't Black user, he did said 5/3/5 would be better. The ones that 5 Blue would be good for are those with good blacktile.png powers. However I do believe that was posted before IF was revealed, and since he does cover similar colours and work much better as generator, I'm arguing there is not much point in 5 Blue.

    If you have other Black users, you will use IF. If you want Doom's Black as strong as possible, and while it's not clear 60% increase, it's far from negligible. Blade Purple is widely considered 5 Purple at max even though it makes it more likely to be cleared.

    I just don't see 'All' as a magic word that makes the skill suddenly amazing. Would you still max it if it transformed 12 at 3 covers and All at 5?

    In the end I argue that IF completely took over blacktile.png generation buisness and if you want to use Doom, you have to use his blackflag.png and for that you will be served much better than sometimes getting more use out of blueflag.png. All that (infrequent) extra Black it did help collect is then diminished because power you use it for is less efficient.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    My Doom is 5/5/1, I've had a REAL hard time getting some purples. Either way, all I know is blue @ 5 is a must for me, I don't care about his other powers. To use purple, I have to collect it, then get enough on the board for the dmg to add up. Its pretty much the same as blue. The difference is with blue, its a lot easier for me to get 4 and 5 tile matches. My focus with Doom over time has become a reliance on him as a battery, making blacks for XF and over match dmg from 4 and 5 tiles matches. At this point in the game, Doom's black feels more like a liability, more and more characters are sprouting up that either want the reds for their attacks (Cyc),, make the reds disappear (Cyc), cover up the reds before doom can (Blade/Daken), or do so much shake-up, that reliance on black for dmg feels short cited.

    So with that said, I'm leaning towards 3/5/5, blue being the most important because of its ease at setting up 4/5 tile matches, and purple because its one of the bastard children of colors.
    - Unreall
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
    Do not go into the She-Hulk pvp with 5/3/5, she will turn those tiles around on you.. and it is the opposite of fun..
  • GrumpySmurf1002
    GrumpySmurf1002 Posts: 3,511 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lerysh wrote:

    The big difference between Cyke and Doom is instead of going from 6 to 8 for 3 vs 5 covers Doom goes from 8 to 100%. It may not make a huge difference most of the time, but it's enough for me to have Doom at 5 covers for his conversion and Cyke only at 3. Also Doom's Black is sometimes difficult to manage with 6 attack tiles anyway. You can hardly ever get 6 separate unmatchable reds on a board, especially now with so many ways to ADD red to a board, it's just not going to hold up long term. It's like the reason you take 3 in Storm's blackflag.png . It's great for a couple turns, but both 3 and 5 blackflag.png wind up being reduced to basically the same number of attack.png tiles over a few turns. So why invest in something that won't last vs something that can help accelerate powers.

    Just seeing this. Yes, 8 to sideways eight is a jump, but practically speaking it's been rare that I'm staring at 10+ blue when Techno is ready. I could of course hold the blue for a favorable board, but in PvP I don't like to hold AP, especially if it'll accelerate other skills.

    If I ran Doom primarily as a black accelerator, I'd absolutely go 3/5/5, but since I often use him opposite Thor and as the only black user, I prefer the maximum damage, even if said damage is vulnerable.

    I also run Storm 5/3/5.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:
    Lerysh wrote:

    The big difference between Cyke and Doom is instead of going from 6 to 8 for 3 vs 5 covers Doom goes from 8 to 100%. It may not make a huge difference most of the time, but it's enough for me to have Doom at 5 covers for his conversion and Cyke only at 3. Also Doom's Black is sometimes difficult to manage with 6 attack tiles anyway. You can hardly ever get 6 separate unmatchable reds on a board, especially now with so many ways to ADD red to a board, it's just not going to hold up long term. It's like the reason you take 3 in Storm's blackflag.png . It's great for a couple turns, but both 3 and 5 blackflag.png wind up being reduced to basically the same number of attack.png tiles over a few turns. So why invest in something that won't last vs something that can help accelerate powers.

    Just seeing this. Yes, 8 to sideways eight is a jump, but practically speaking it's been rare that I'm staring at 10+ blue when Techno is ready. I could of course hold the blue for a favorable board, but in PvP I don't like to hold AP, especially if it'll accelerate other skills.

    If I ran Doom primarily as a black accelerator, I'd absolutely go 3/5/5, but since I often use him opposite Thor and as the only black user, I prefer the maximum damage, even if said damage is vulnerable.

    I also run Storm 5/3/5.

    That's cool if that's your choice, as long as you get that it's not anywhere close to a 60% damage increase for those 2 covers when making that choice.

    I choose to push his black out faster, occasionally, by having 3/5/5.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Should I make doom my next 166? Currently I an deciding between him Blade, R&G, and storm. Who should I chose? My current roster is lvl 250 xforce, Cap, Draken, Mags, the Hood, Spidy, The Hulk, and Deadpool
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    AkumaHale wrote:
    Should I make doom my next 166? Currently I an deciding between him Blade, R&G, and storm. Who should I chose? My current roster is lvl 250 xforce, Cap, Draken, Mags, the Hood, Spidy, The Hulk, and Deadpool
    Storm should be dead last. I'd say Rocket and Groot to lessen your health pack usage, but Blade does pair well with Daken.

    But then again you've got lots of options so I would say anyone but Storm.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    raisinbman wrote:
    AkumaHale wrote:
    Should I make doom my next 166? Currently I an deciding between him Blade, R&G, and storm. Who should I chose? My current roster is lvl 250 xforce, Cap, Draken, Mags, the Hood, Spidy, The Hulk, and Deadpool
    Storm should be dead last. I'd say Rocket and Groot to lessen your health pack usage, but Blade does pair well with Daken.

    But then again you've got lots of options so I would say anyone but Storm.

    Also with Daken being the next PvE featured, I'd go with Blade to help him out.
  • Gowaderacer
    Gowaderacer Posts: 310 Mover and Shaker
    I just maxed my 3/5/5 Doom and I'm seriously considering moving to a 5/3/5 build as soon as I get the covers.

    Even maxed and boosted in the current event his attack tiles from the black ability only do a little more than 900 damage when all 4 are out. I know you want blue at 5 to change all tiles but his black just seems totally worthless at 3 and I want to get the most out of him.
  • Buret0
    Buret0 Posts: 1,591
    Gowaderacer wrote:
    I just maxed my 3/5/5 Doom and I'm seriously considering moving to a 5/3/5 build as soon as I get the covers.

    Even maxed and boosted in the current event his attack tiles from the black ability only do a little more than 900 damage when all 4 are out. I know you want blue at 5 to change all tiles but his black just seems totally worthless at 3 and I want to get the most out of him.

    Hmm... I'm wondering whether changing 9 blue versus all blue is worth the extra cover?

    Blue doesn't have a ton of active abilities, so it might be the case that there are lots of blues on the board.

    On the other hand, if you've been gathering blues to use his blue ability, are there really going to be more than 9 blues on the board most of the time?
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Buret0 wrote:
    Gowaderacer wrote:
    I just maxed my 3/5/5 Doom and I'm seriously considering moving to a 5/3/5 build as soon as I get the covers.

    Even maxed and boosted in the current event his attack tiles from the black ability only do a little more than 900 damage when all 4 are out. I know you want blue at 5 to change all tiles but his black just seems totally worthless at 3 and I want to get the most out of him.

    Hmm... I'm wondering whether changing 9 blue versus all blue is worth the extra cover?

    Blue doesn't have a ton of active abilities, so it might be the case that there are lots of blues on the board.

    On the other hand, if you've been gathering blues to use his blue ability, are there really going to be more than 9 blues on the board most of the time?
    I think this was discussed fairly recently, but at least for me, until a certain Fist gets a nerf, Doom's blue conversion is second rate. His purple is most important right now so 5/3/5 with X/X/5 being most important IMO
  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    You only lose 2 blue conversions by having 3 blues instead of 5, so its a no brainer really. 5/3/5 is the only realistic build for Doom.
  • Buret0
    Buret0 Posts: 1,591
    nick_chicane wrote:
    You only lose 2 blue conversions by having 3 blues instead of 5, so its a no brainer really. 5/3/5 is the only realistic build for Doom.

    Depends on what you are using Black AP for most of the time.

    If Doom is a battery for getting rid of useless Blue and turning them into Black (with his hands on a Purple detonator), then you still build 3/5/5...

    However, with some strike tiles on the board, his attack tiles can be very effective, even at 3/5/5.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    nick_chicane wrote:
    You only lose 2 blue conversions by having 3 blues instead of 5
    Doesn't 5 convert all blues?

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