*** Doctor Doom (Classic) ***

vudu3

ark123 wrote:

zerker rage will overrite an opponent's doom's purple traps, but not your own.

I think he was asking what happens if you're fighting a team of Doom and Patch and the AI uses Berserker Rage. Will you only get one or two strike tiles because the rest of the purple tiles are covered with enemy Doom traps?

Phaserhawk

For anyone still questioning purple.

Level 5 Summon Demons--1140 dmg per turn

Level 5 Diabolic Plan -- 1131 and then 1131 for every trap tile. If you just had 2 trap tiles you did the damage of 3 turns of Summon Demons instantly

And playing him more and more I am moving towards 3/5/5. Blue is too good to not max because of how you can smartly manipulate the board to get massive cascades that you cannot get without it. While the average says only turning 9 tiles black is enough, in reality it seems to be more than that. So while 4/4/5 might work in theory 3/5/5 can really work wonders. Losing 484 attack tile damage for a skill that you generally generate the black for someone else seems bad.

To me Summon Demons is a, "oh X-Force is Dead or Surgical Strike stole Black" Pair Doom with BP and have some fun that way, that's what I'm going to do.

Marc_Spector

Thanks for your thoughts, Phaserhawk. I was already long-sold on 5 blue, but this has settled the black vs purple argument for me -- will definitely be going 3/5/5

Unknown

In the Doom event I found quite a few situation where I'm looking at say 8 black, got enough for Technopathic Strike and there are at least 10 blue on the board and it'll form a match 4 or even just a match 3 but that's all I need for Surgical Strike (or ROTP if you don't have X Force). Now, if Technopathic Strike is anything but level 5, there's a small but nonzero chance the tile you need converted won't get converted, and while that seems like a small thing, I really don't like the uncertainty of it especially given you got two game ending moves in black (Surgical Strike/ROTP), so a 10% chance (say 10 blue tiles, you convert 9, then 10% chance the one you need converted won't be) to miss your game ending move is actuall more serious than it sounds. It is very rare to get the super awesome board where a level 5 Technopathic Strike is needed to make your super awesome cascade, but a lot of time all you need is another black match 4 to pump into Surgical Strike/ROTP and only level 5 Technopathic Strike can guaranteed that in most cases.

NorthernPolarity

I dunno, in all the games for PvP that I ran, since I was prioritizing blue as my 2nd or 3rd top color for surge, I kept track of how much blue there was on the board, and in all instances there were like 8 or less.

Phantron wrote:

In the Doom event I found quite a few situation where I'm looking at say 8 black, got enough for Technopathic Strike and there are at least 10 blue on the board and it'll form a match 4 or even just a match 3 but that's all I need for Surgical Strike (or ROTP if you don't have X Force). Now, if Technopathic Strike is anything but level 5, there's a small but nonzero chance the tile you need converted won't get converted, and while that seems like a small thing, I really don't like the uncertainty of it especially given you got two game ending moves in black (Surgical Strike/ROTP), so a 10% chance (say 10 blue tiles, you convert 9, then 10% chance the one you need converted won't be) to miss your game ending move is actuall more serious than it sounds. It is very rare to get the super awesome board where a level 5 Technopathic Strike is needed to make your super awesome cascade, but a lot of time all you need is another black match 4 to pump into Surgical Strike/ROTP and only level 5 Technopathic Strike can guaranteed that in most cases.

So lets say this hypothetical case happens in 20% of games (it can't happen that often). In this case, you have a 10% to miss, so 10% * 20% = 2% that this actually matters in a game, which hardly can be considered a "must have ability". The only time where having 5 blue actually matters is if you pair Doom with MNM, in which case you'll make enough blue to technopathic and wipe out everything, and yeah, its obviously worth it for that team composition.

5/3/5 has to be the best standalone / heroic build: on the off chance that Doom gets featured in a heroic and ends up having to carry the team (cough Blade cough), you're going to want to prioritize blue in which case the scenario that I described happens where 5 blue just doesn't matter since the board rarely has 8 blue on board.

3/5/5 or 5/5/3 is better with MNM for the combo, but otherwise just seems unnecessary.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

I dunno, in all the games for PvP that I ran, since I was prioritizing blue as my 2nd or 3rd top color for surge, I kept track of how much blue there was on the board, and in all instances there were like 8 or less.

Phantron wrote:

In the Doom event I found quite a few situation where I'm looking at say 8 black, got enough for Technopathic Strike and there are at least 10 blue on the board and it'll form a match 4 or even just a match 3 but that's all I need for Surgical Strike (or ROTP if you don't have X Force). Now, if Technopathic Strike is anything but level 5, there's a small but nonzero chance the tile you need converted won't get converted, and while that seems like a small thing, I really don't like the uncertainty of it especially given you got two game ending moves in black (Surgical Strike/ROTP), so a 10% chance (say 10 blue tiles, you convert 9, then 10% chance the one you need converted won't be) to miss your game ending move is actuall more serious than it sounds. It is very rare to get the super awesome board where a level 5 Technopathic Strike is needed to make your super awesome cascade, but a lot of time all you need is another black match 4 to pump into Surgical Strike/ROTP and only level 5 Technopathic Strike can guaranteed that in most cases.

So lets say this hypothetical case happens in 20% of games (it can't happen that often). In this case, you have a 10% to miss, so 10% * 20% = 2% that this actually matters in a game, which hardly can be considered a "must have ability". The only time where having 5 blue actually matters is if you pair Doom with MNM, in which case you'll make enough blue to technopathic and wipe out everything, and yeah, its obviously worth it for that team composition.

5/3/5 has to be the best standalone / heroic build: on the off chance that Doom gets featured in a heroic and ends up having to carry the team (cough Blade cough), you're going to want to prioritize blue in which case the scenario that I described happens where 5 blue just doesn't matter since the board rarely has 8 blue on board.

3/5/5 or 5/5/3 is better with MNM for the combo, but otherwise just seems unnecessary.

If you don't have X Force or Black Panther I can certainly see 5/3/5 being the best. As long as either are available, you might as well run them together since Dr. Doom accelerates black and there's almost no circumstance I can see where you wouldn't use Surgical Strike/ROTP over Summon Demons, so you might as well go with 3/5/5.

Doom cannot be featured in heroic given the current trend where heroics can only have good guys. He'll probably be in a relatively large list of characters that can be considered as your #3 pick for black, but when the #1 and #2 black characters happen to be good at everything else, that's not really that valuable unless something really changes with event formatting that prevents you from easily using your #1/#2 top pick.

PuceMoose

I've enjoyed using a Patch / Dr. Doom / Spiderman combination. Matching purple helps build your defense while building toward the Doom bomb, and Spiderman's protect tiles can also take out enemy Doom's traps. Plus, between Doom's traps and Spiderman's protect tiles, it's not too difficult to have a Berserker Rage give an enemy 0 strike tiles.

orbitalint

So I just got done with going against a doom, cage, Thor match. Any time cage's unbreakable passive went off to start their turn, doom didn't put down a diabolical plot tile before or after. I didn't even think the player had the purple to start the match because it didn't go of until midway through the match.

Anyone else seeing this? Posted in bugs too just in case.

Vhailorx

orbitalint wrote:

So I just got done with going against a doom, cage, Thor match. Any time cage's unbreakable passive went off to start their turn, doom didn't put down a diabolical plot tile before or after. I didn't even think the player had the purple to start the match because it didn't go of until midway through the match.

Anyone else seeing this? Posted in bugs too just in case.

Haven't played against this pairing yet, so I can't comment on that, but I just tried a prologue match with Patch/Cage/Doom and both Cage's and Doom's passives were working normally. (That's a great combo by the way, rainbow active coverage, 3 good passives, solid defense, lots of great offense, and the doom/patch trick! The only thing this team doesn't have much of is board shake, just doom's blue. Wish I had enough doom/cage covers to play it in PVP or against high level pve opponents).

edited for spelling/grammar.

Unknown

anyone else realize Dr. Doom's Diabolical Plot is to take a selfie?

Arondite

Seems to me that if you've got XF or BP, or any of the premier users, 3/5/5 is the best build. Outside of that, if Doom is your go to or your is lacking, I'd be more inclined to say 4/4/5 or 5/3/5 is best.

Either way, purple is hands down his go to.

Unknown

What do you guys think?
I came back to the game a few days ago, and i have patch at 13 covers, but never really use him (i never had mags).

I consider to buy the last covers for doom to have him also at 13 covers. But i am not sure, how powerful he really is.
He has premium health what is good. His purple is very good for patch and his blue can create some good cascades, and his black deals some decent dmg... so in my opinion he is worth it. But i want your opinion as well, because i am a bit far away from the meta now.

What i know, xforce is the way to go, but i dont have him with decent covers and he is WAY to expensive to max him with HP right now

Unknown

coRexx wrote:

Doom is slow but good, nice synergy with Patch - full rainbow (5 actives) and of course BR does not overwrite Doom's traps.
His black is rather weak without strike tiles, so use it after BR. Purple is strong by itself even with 3 covers.
I have luck with tokens so I use 4-5-4 Doom with Patch and for me it's work well.

Phaserhawk

This is one of the few times where I have seen 2 viable options depending upon pairing with Doom.

X-Force,BP--3/5/5

Doom as primary Black then 5/3/5.

So lets take doom feature PvP out since I think that is a terrible way to build a character, what is the best option to where he will give me the most.

In Goon only I'm probaly going to opt 5/3/5, I will make blue and purple primary, allow black to build then use Techno strike, I would also do the same with 2 goons and 1 character.

What about 2 characters or 3? If Doom is a black accelerator, then 3/5/5, if Doom is your black then 5/3/5

Lets be real, Doom isn't PvP material, he' s PvE or SHIELD so what maximizes Dr.Doom in those enviornments? I always figure out how to build a character assuming there are no such thing as 4*'s unless they are top PvP material, then how they play with 4* matter, in this case, Doom isn't high PvP since his blue and black are better spent on X-Force and 4hor, not to mention his purple is negated by X-Force.

So from actually viable 3*'s here is what I see

BP--go 3/5/5
Blade--You could go either way on this I would lean 3/5/5
Captain America--5/3/5 you probably want Caps' blue more often
Captain Marvel -- 3/5/5
Colossus--5/3/5
Daken --5/3/5, you don't want blue going away for Daken
Daredevil--5/3/5 same reason as Cap
Deadpool--you could go either way, I would lean 5/3/5
Falcon--either way, I lean 5/3/5
Human Torch--3/5/5 Torch's black is quicker and does more damage
Luke Cage --3/5/5 I want Cage's black
C.Mags --5/3/5 blue is for C.Mags, not Doom
Mystique--a bit of duplication but 3/5/5 would probably be better since it accelerates Masterstroke better than Infiltration
Psylocke--3/5/5
Rocket Groot--5/3/5
Hood--5/3/5
Punisher--3/5/5
Thor--either way
Patch--either way

If you count them up, it's pretty much a tie half the time 5/3/5 is better, half the time 3/5/5 is better. If you run All your characters with equal play then I would actually say 4/4/5 and hedge your bets, but 4/4/5 doesn't always make much sense. but if you play with a majority in one category or the other, then go with the build that best suits that. Rember this though. Lets say you could start the game with enough blue to cast Technopathic Strike 1st turn.

There is 71% chance there will be at least 8 on a random board, a 57.45% chance that there will be 9 blue, and a 43.26% chance of 10 and a 30.25 % chance of 11, after that it starts to drop of rapidly, like only 19.61 there is 12.

So comparing 5/3/5 to 3/5/5, there is a 57.45% chance on a random board of there being 9 or more tiles thus 5 blue will net you 1 more tile at least, so 57.45% of the time I will get at least 1 extra blue tile changed if not more.

Black has a 73% damage increase from 3 to 5, but blue at 5 generates 38% more black and makes 11 and 12 costing AP blacks 20% faster than a 5/3/5 build.

In the end, where do you value Doom's black, and how much more likely are you to play him vs. another character with black.

In the end guess what helped me make my decision? Daken

Daken is used as an enemy so many times in PvE that essentially you can't count on him being there, and Daken and Doom don't play well with each other. Doom's blue counters' Daken healing, Daken's Pheromone counters Doom's Summon Demons by making less red available to drop them. Assuming there are 10 tiles out, Daken at least in my experience almost always has about 5-6 tiles out on average, because green is such a strong color you have to match it, thus only 4-5 red are avaiable for me to drop Summon Demons anyway, so I choose acceleration as my option and will go 3/5/5, you want purple now with doom, not black, black is for other's add to the fact you can never assuming tiles will stay around I'm more inclined for known factors.

atomzed

I have been using Doc Doom with Xforce for my PVP climb, and i really like him. He's definitely a 3/5/5 for me, even though i currently only have him as 5/5/3.

sinnerjfl

As much as I love Technopathic Strike, I don't think that anything more than 3 covers will be useful 90% of the time. By the time you have gathered the 9 blue required to use the skill, how many times will you have more than 8 blue tiles remaining on the board? (if someone can run a test on this, let us know because it must not happen very often)

Unless you want to wait 5-10 more turns for the board to generate blue (and why would you anyway) then use Technopathic Strike, I don't see the point. 8 blue tiles or 10 tiles, the difference is minimal.

Also, consider that if you actually use Summon Demons, in the next few turns you're very likely to lose at least 2 of the attack tiles. At 5 covers you'd still have 4 demons going. At 3 covers, you'd only have 2 demons going. As was also mentionned before, the attack tiles are stronger with more covers.

Even though his black isn't all that great compared to other black powers, i'd rather have a 5/3/5 build. Converting 2 blue tiles or losing a lot of damage are the options here.

Phaserhawk

DayvBang wrote:

Here are some stats on Doctor Doom's blue, derived from NorthernPolarity's awesome simulator data.


One cover:
51.2% cascade chance
4.2 average tiles destroyed

Two covers:
57.5% cascade chance
5.1 average tiles destroyed

Three covers:
62.5% cascade chance
6.0 average tiles destroyed

Four covers:
66.0% cascade chance
6.7 average tiles destroyed

Five covers:
70.9% cascade chance
8.3 average tiles destroyed

The percentage increases are somewhat linear, but the increase in average tiles destroyed from 4 to 5 is the largest jump it makes.

Of course, this assumes a properly random board rather than one starved for blue, but it's only starved for blue if you've been rushing this skill. If it's a secondary priority, you'll probably have a good mix of tiles out when you're ready to use it. If it's not the right board, make a couple of non-blue matches to improve it.

Personally, I think five in blue is non-negotiable. 3/5/5 and 5/5/3 are both strong, and a compromise build of 4/5/4 might not be the worst ever.

It is interesting that all three of Doom's skills are best used with a bit of patience or planning. You might want to wait for less ready red matches, more blue tiles, or more traps to maximize their effectiveness, or you might want to strike as soon as you can before the tide turns against you. This suits Doom's character really well.

sinnerjfl wrote:

As much as I love Technopathic Strike, I don't think that anything more than 3 covers will be useful 90% of the time. By the time you have gathered the 9 blue required to use the skill, how many times will you have more than 8 blue tiles remaining on the board? (if someone can run a test on this, let us know because it must not happen very often)

Unless you want to wait 5-10 more turns for the board to generate blue (and why would you anyway) then use Technopathic Strike, I don't see the point. 8 blue tiles or 10 tiles, the difference is minimal.

Also, consider that if you actually use Summon Demons, in the next few turns you're very likely to lose at least 2 of the attack tiles. At 5 covers you'd still have 4 demons going. At 3 covers, you'd only have 2 demons going. As was also mentionned before, the attack tiles are stronger with more covers.

Even though his black isn't all that great compared to other black powers, i'd rather have a 5/3/5 build. Converting 2 blue tiles or losing a lot of damage are the options here.

As you can see above there is a difference, you lose out on an avg of 2 black tiles per cast and whatever the cascade results in, will 5/3/5 work okay a majority of the time? Sure it will, but is the minority of the time large enough that it's worth giving up some black damage, for me that's a yes.

Not to mention D3 wants you to go 5 purple, just like they wanted you to go 5 green with Loki, they sell more covers that way, and with how quickly they have come out with 3rd covers, it must have proven fairly profitable.

NorthernPolarity

Phaserhawk wrote:

Not to mention D3 wants you to go 5 purple, just like they wanted you to go 5 green with Loki, they sell more covers that way, and with how quickly they have come out with 3rd covers, it must have proven fairly profitable.

Quickly? It took them months to even get around to it. I bet it barely makes them any money compared to a new character: why would it when character packs dominate sales, and almost everyone already has a Doom? Also, I think it's incredibly pessimistic to reason that they are making the purple ability good just so that they can sell covers. What would the alternative be? Make the ability unplayable so that the character is functionally identical to how it was before the rework? They made the ability good so that Doom would be viable as opposed to sitting on the bench like he was before (of course, all characters except XF / Ladythor sit on the bench nowadays, but thats besides the point.)

Phaserhawk

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Not to mention D3 wants you to go 5 purple, just like they wanted you to go 5 green with Loki, they sell more covers that way, and with how quickly they have come out with 3rd covers, it must have proven fairly profitable.

Quickly? It took them months to even get around to it. I bet it barely makes them any money compared to a new character: why would it when character packs dominate sales, and almost everyone already has a Doom? Also, I think it's incredibly pessimistic to reason that they are making the purple ability good just so that they can sell covers. What would the alternative be? Make the ability unplayable so that the character is functionally identical to how it was before the rework? They made the ability good so that Doom would be viable as opposed to sitting on the bench like he was before (of course, all characters except XF / Ladythor sit on the bench nowadays, but thats besides the point.)

If you look at the gap from start of game to when Daken got 3rd power, then the gap from Daken to Loki. But since Loki we got Doom, and are to get Rags very, very shortly, yeah I would say that's pretty quick. And you are correct, compared to a new character they income will probably be 1/3rd as much, however, there's also 1/3rd less development since 2 of the 3 skills are already done. And what better way to maximize your efforts then to make the new skill strong but not overpowered thus compelling people to want the new skill over the previous 2 thus making more money. Because they could always make the new power average and beef up the other two thus saving people HP since the newest skill isn't the best one but their prior ones got better.

What if for doom they doubled the damage on black, but halved the damage on purple. Everyone would go 5/5/3, purple would be okay, but your black is the better skill. Loki just made sense to go 5/3/5 because of how purple functions at 3 vs 5. Daken though was one where you could argue as his blue is decent as a lvl3, 4 or 5.

My gut says that Rags new power will be good enough that you'll drop your red or green to 3.

fmftint

Phaserhawk wrote:

are to get Rags very, very shortly, yeah I would say that's pretty quick.

In the video Q&A they said they want to get Rag a 3rd ability but it is a long way off, no old characters are currently being worked on