Gilded Lotus: Bait and switch

Sarahschmara

I know it’s my fault, I bought a broken thing. I knew it was broken and I bought it anyway because I wanted it. 

In the past, we’ve had much more playtime with our broken things before they were nerfed.

But if D3GO is selling things just to change them drastically a few weeks later? That does not seem fair. 

Please, for the love of all that is holy, just freakin’ beta-test these things before you release them to the wild. 

Thank you you for listening to my feedback. 

*Title was edited for clarity - fight4thedream

Sarahschmara

Also, that’s the last real money you’ll get from me. I will gladly skate by with paying with my time from here on out. 

Gunmix25

What was broken? Nothing was "broken." But.... almost everything bought was bugged. 

Pavorus

Sarahschmara, could you be more specific about what is broken?

GrizzoMtGPQ

Gilded Lotus. Which was not, by the way, broken at all.

fight4thedream

***Mod Mode: ON***

Having discussed the issue of this thread with @Brigby, I am re-opening it to allow members a space to debate whether the apparent changes to Gilded Lotus card is a case of bait and switch and to discuss the possibility of receiving a refund for purchases related to this card. I am also modifying the title from "Bait and switch" to "Gilded Lotus: Bait and Switch" for the sake of clarity.

On behalf of the mod team, I apologize to Sarahschmara for the mishandling of this matter. 

Just to be clear, if you wish to discuss how the changes to the Gilded Lotus affects game mechanics, please do so in the Gilded Lotus thread. We wish to keep the two topics separate. Thank you.

***Mod Mode: OFF**

Mburn7

@fight4thedream are you a new mod?  I can't recall seeing you before.  Sorry for off topic, just curious.

jtwood

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it bait and switch, as that implies intent.

Lately, someone has been reminding me of this quote a lot:

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

It's more likely that they simply did not appreciate how many people viewed the Lotus as a major reason to buy that package.

I feel like the problem here is one of trustworthiness: How can I ever feel comfortable purchasing anything again with the knowledge that sometimes they sell broken stuff that won't work for weeks (Tishana) or that they might just rip the carpet out from under my feet after I pay for it (Lotus)?

__Adam

It doesn't even make my top 10 of 'this needs to be changed'.  It's not overly powerful or oppressive, i just don't get why they'd burn so much good will turning it into useless trash.

This really will be the last card/pw purchase i make as every time its been a bait and switch. I don't care if it's malice or incompetence; either way i just don't have enough trust/faith to fall for it again.

fight4thedream

Mburn7 said:

@fight4thedream are you a new mod?  I can't recall seeing you before.  Sorry for off topic, just curious.

Actually, I am the oldest mod on the mod team but since I don't play MtG:PQ I don't think it wise for me to weigh in on matters beyond my knowledge. However, Brigby has fallen ill and it's not clear when he  will be back so I thought it best to step in and re-open the thread. 

I doubt you will see much of me in these parts besides instances of obvious rule infractions. But on a more personal note, from what I understand you are dealing with a potential nasty nerf which I can certainly sympathize with. But that's enough about me. 

Hope things work out for the best in regards to this Gilded Lotus issue!

Laeuftbeidir

Thanks @fight4thedream!

I don't think this was an intended bait and switch. I assume the cards were just rebalanced in the normal process, without the responsible person even thinking about this as a whole: but without any communication about it, it just appears  like noone cares.

This was my first real cash purchase. This was my last real cash purchase.

Theros

jtwood said:

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it bait and switch, as that implies intent.

Lately, someone has been reminding me of this quote a lot:

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

It's more likely that they simply did not appreciate how many people viewed the Lotus as a major reason to buy that package.

I feel like the problem here is one of trustworthiness: How can I ever feel comfortable purchasing anything again with the knowledge that sometimes they sell broken stuff that won't work for weeks (Tishana) or that they might just rip the carpet out from under my feet after I pay for it (Lotus)?

In economy, most people would buy something when the perceived value is greater than price. We buy things not because they are overpowered, but because we see the value for our needs. For me, lotus was not broken by any mean. It was an opportunity to play mediocre PWs I haven't touched for months.

Depala pilot for instance did not generate interest in the community compared to other cards that were not necessary OP. There is also a trusts issue like you said. D3 still hasn't fulfilled it promise to look into depala because the feedback was so bad.
In clonclusion:
1) Cannot feel comfortable because what I purchase is more likely to get nerfed
2) Like Tishana, thing cannot work properly for weeks.
3) Any promise cannot be trusted, its a tool to keep us quiet so that we may forget and move on.

Karn/lotus was on sales for days in the vault.
Why not nerf lotus was it was still on sale with Karn?
Why nerf if now when Karn/lotus left the vault?
I'm sure they had days testing the pre-release dominara cards before being vault.
This looks like a dirty move

FindingHeart8

fight4thedream said:

Mburn7 said:

@fight4thedream are you a new mod?  I can't recall seeing you before.  Sorry for off topic, just curious.

Actually, I am the oldest mod on the mod team but since I don't play MtG:PQ I don't think it wise for me to weigh in on matters beyond my knowledge. However, Brigby has fallen ill and it's not clear when he  will be back so I thought it best to step in and re-open the thread. 

I doubt you will see much of me in these parts besides instances of obvious rule infractions. But on a more personal note, from what I understand you are dealing with a potential nasty nerf which I can certainly sympathize with. But that's enough about me. 

Hope things work out for the best in regards to this Gilded Lotus issue!

I didn't even purchase the cards (I hesitated, which I'm glad I did) and I still feel bad for the people who made the purchase, enough to stick up for them.

GrizzoMtGPQ

@fight4thedream I bought Karn partially because of Gilded Lotus. I don't want this card nerfed. Put me in the camp of calling this a "bait and switch" and wanting a refund. I would have waited and used crystals if I had known this card was getting changed.

Let's just make this easy. No one wants this change so just revert it.

boopers

In effect... yeah, I’d say this has the “unintended” bait and switch feel. My analogy is that I went to Wendy’s and ordered a spicy chicken sandwich. Instead, I got a regular chicken sandwich. It’s not what I paid for or what I wanted. Yes, it is in fact still a chicken sandwich, it’s not what was advertised. If Wendy’s fails to offer my money back if I request a refund... that would be disingenuous and I could probably sue for it and win if I were a nutter.

However, Wendy’s would do one of these things:
1) replace my sandwich with what was advertised.
2) say: “I’m sorry, we don’t have that anymore... you can keep that sandwich and here is a coupon for a meal of equal or greater value as compensation, unless you would like us to...
3) refund the purchase

So yeah, I’d say that D3 has an obvious and undebatable obigation to do one or more of those three things. I don’t even know why this has been put up for debate on a forum post. 

There is value in the debate if lotus was overpowered and deserved this specific nerf, or less crippling nerf, or should be left as it always originally designed, but that’s the other thread. 

Gabrosin

I think it would go a long way towards re-establishing trust with the game's community if whoever was responsible for the decision to change the Lotus's stats would publicly provide some rationale for the decision.  There are a lot of layers here that are all combining in a bad way, and even an outright reversal of the decision at this point wouldn't be enough to fully smooth things over.

1. We'd like to know why Gilded Lotus was chosen for rebalancing, over many of the other possible candidates that receive complaints right now (Imminent Doom, Omniscience, New Perspectives, and so on).  Was it simply because the set was still in development, or was there a specific cause for concern?  Does the dev team believe that this card, as printed, was more damaging to game balance than the others?

2. We'd like to know why Gilded Lotus was adjusted so drastically.  It now takes nine swaps to get back the mana that was invested in the card; an Origins common, Manalith, does it in 2.5 turns.  A useful-but-not-broken legacy rare, Drownyard Temple, offers three mana a turn for the same initial mana investment, and more shields and a recursion effect as well.  Was there discussion of simply bumping the mana cost up to 9 without dropping the +2?  Or switching to +1 but reducing the card's cost?  Does the dev team not realize how unplayable the card is in its new form, or was that the intent?  Either answer raises additional questions.

3. We'd like to know whether there was concern about the power level of Gilded Lotus before it was selected for inclusion in the Karn sale package.  Was it chosen because its strength would be enticing to players, or did its strength surprise the developers once they saw it being played by the community?  How long ago was the decision made to downgrade the card's power?  Why was that decision not communicated sooner to people who had purchased or were considering purchasing the Karn package?

4. We'd like to know to what extent we can trust that we'll get what we pay for when we make the decision to purchase specific cards (or PWs who come with them).  We all understand that mistakes happen and sometimes cards need to be fixed or adjusted for the good of the game; however, without some further information and communication here, it's hard to understand this as one of those times.  Cards like Bloodtallow Candle and Navigator's Compass, neither of which were particularly desirable before, were also made worse during this rebalancing.  Why?  Put bluntly: is there some semblance of a data-drive process for these decisions, or is someone throwing darts at a board?

I was excited enough by the $20 price point and the appeal of the Lotus to pay up.  I'm not averse to spending money on a mobile game; the people involved in making it deserve to be compensated for their time and dedication, and it's provided me with many hours of enjoyment.  I was even looking forward to seeing Teferi and Jaya and their decks, hoping they'd be offered at the same price point so I'd have a real decision to make, rather than seeing a price of $40 for one mythic card and thinking "nope no chance".

Now I can't imagine spending the money for early access to a card or PW again, knowing that the same thing that makes them appealing (being good) is the thing that will most likely result in them getting changed.  We deserve more of an explanation from the developers than "oh, it went through balance changes".  Please make this happen.

Gilesclone

@Gabrosin well stated.  Too bad they’re not listening.

Mburn7

fight4thedream said:

Mburn7 said:

@fight4thedream are you a new mod?  I can't recall seeing you before.  Sorry for off topic, just curious.

Actually, I am the oldest mod on the mod team but since I don't play MtG:PQ I don't think it wise for me to weigh in on matters beyond my knowledge. However, Brigby has fallen ill and it's not clear when he  will be back so I thought it best to step in and re-open the thread.

@Brigby !!  You're definitely the best thing to happen to the forums, I hope you're ok!

Sarahschmara

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

Dutchrudder

If this was a simple mana cost adjustment, I could understand, but making it both cost more and do less, is pretty lame. That card was part of the reason I bought Karn, but I really haven't sunk much money at all into this game, so whatever. I played for a year+ and had some fun, but time to find something more interesting and engaging. 

But let's be honest here, one card isn't the reason people are leaving the game, it's the staleness of the game. Event modes are all the same, just with different names, and a new PW to buy so they can drive a few people to pay. There is absolutely zero creativity in the events so all they can do is tweak cards to change the game slightly. It gets very boring and tedious running the same nodes and secondaries, when everyone has seen it a dozen times and knows exactly how to build around it. The whole point of MTG is to build decks that do things, Lotus at least helped with that by boosting mana gains for some lesser PWs to be used, but it wasn't terribly OP for anyone in particular. 

Oh, and it's quite humorous that they chose to alter Lotus, when it's no where near as game breaking as the Cycling combos of New Perspectives + Drake Haven or Faith of the Devoted. I mean, that combo has basically ruled the game for the last year or so, and they did nothing about it, but a few weeks after Lotus is out, they actually make a change. 

Darkcanuck99

I don’t have much more to add besides what’s already been well articulated by @Sarahschmara  and others. I will just say that I am disappointed with this portential nerf. I don’t think the card is broken in it’s current state. The low shield count means that it can be difficult to keep lotus around for long and making it not a great pair with the with mass gem conversion that exisits in many types of decks.

I am in the camp of people who have never spent a dime on this game until the Karn / Lotus package and feel that a good portion of that value for money is being taken away retroactively.