Gilded Lotus: Bait and switch

babar3355

Personally, I don't think it was a bait and switch.  Everyone should have realized that if they waited to buy Karn for crystals they ALSO would have received Gilded Lotus in his starter deck.  Similar to how Nicol Bolas comes with Unesh.  

So the only argument can be that ACCESS to Gilded Lotus for the last month was the reason for your Karn purchase.  But you already got access to it for the last month in it's current form.  So you got exactly what you wanted.  Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

However, I will agree that the nerf to Gilded Lotus was probably unnecessary and certainly way too severe. 

jtwood

babar3355 said:

Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

Go on

babar3355

jtwood said:

babar3355 said:

Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

Go on

Ok, Karn is by far the strongest planeswalker in the game in colorless nodes, and better than any of the mono-walkers for colored nodes.  He also has the most options in the game which makes him fun to experiment with..  Anyone who would not buy him for crystals doesn't really understand the game... lol

FindingHeart8

babar3355 said:

jtwood said:

babar3355 said:

Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

Go on

Ok, Karn is by far the strongest planeswalker in the game in colorless nodes, and better than any of the mono-walkers for colored nodes.  He also has the most options in the game which makes him fun to experiment with..  Anyone who would not buy him for crystals doesn't really understand the game... lol

that's a pretty strong claim you're making there...though I can't fully contest it (as I'm yet to purchase Karn), I'd wager that as strong as he may be, he's not incontestably the strongest in colored nodes (in all color nodes though I'd definitely agree with you).

And I, my good sir, have a stupendous understanding of this game!  **except for the new parts I haven't read yet...but we're not counting those

jtwood

babar3355 said:

jtwood said:

babar3355 said:

Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

Go on

Ok, Karn is by far the strongest planeswalker in the game in colorless nodes, and better than any of the mono-walkers for colored nodes.  He also has the most options in the game which makes him fun to experiment with..  Anyone who would not buy him for crystals doesn't really understand the game... lol

Sure, but how does that pertain to people who bought this stuff for cash? The topic of this thread.

Gabrosin

babar3355 said:

Personally, I don't think it was a bait and switch.  Everyone should have realized that if they waited to buy Karn for crystals they ALSO would have received Gilded Lotus in his starter deck.  Similar to how Nicol Bolas comes with Unesh.  

So the only argument can be that ACCESS to Gilded Lotus for the last month was the reason for your Karn purchase.  But you already got access to it for the last month in it's current form.  So you got exactly what you wanted.  Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

However, I will agree that the nerf to Gilded Lotus was probably unnecessary and certainly way too severe. 

If the argument here is that paying customers got their money's worth because they got to play the pre-nerf Gilded Lotus for a month... how is that better?  There was a month of game time where people who ponied up cash got to use a card that F2P players will never get to use, because it will no longer exist.  It's literally pay to win at that point.  Instead of monetizing by selling early access to a card the general community will eventually get, it's monetizing by selling exclusive access to a card the general community will never receive.

babar3355

Gabrosin said:

babar3355 said:

Personally, I don't think it was a bait and switch.  Everyone should have realized that if they waited to buy Karn for crystals they ALSO would have received Gilded Lotus in his starter deck.  Similar to how Nicol Bolas comes with Unesh.  

So the only argument can be that ACCESS to Gilded Lotus for the last month was the reason for your Karn purchase.  But you already got access to it for the last month in it's current form.  So you got exactly what you wanted.  Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

However, I will agree that the nerf to Gilded Lotus was probably unnecessary and certainly way too severe. 

If the argument here is that paying customers got their money's worth because they got to play the pre-nerf Gilded Lotus for a month... how is that better?  There was a month of game time where people who ponied up cash got to use a card that F2P players will never get to use, because it will no longer exist.  It's literally pay to win at that point.  Instead of monetizing by selling early access to a card the general community will eventually get, it's monetizing by selling exclusive access to a card the general community will never receive.

The point is, you cant make the argument that people paid cash for Karn rather than waiting to buy him for crystals, just so they would get Gilded Lotus.  Because they would get Gilded Lotus if they bought Karn for crystals too.  So the only argument is they wouldn't have bought Karn, even for crystals, in Gilded Lotus'  nerfed form.

If that what people are saying, then I think they are either blowing smoke or haven't played him enough to understand his power.

Chavez303

I paid money for Karn......would i have paid money for him knowing lotus was going to be nerfed that hard.....probably not.  But it wouldn't have stopped me paying for him with crystals.  

The point is people put down cash for a whole product.  That product is now changing.  I get it why people are upset.  I'm one of them. 

I agree with Gabrosin.  Its pretty much pay for something the general populace will never get.  I dont think thats right either. 

At this point, none of this surprises me....shame on me for thinking it would be better.

GrizzoMtGPQ

Theros said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

Yes only the colors of the nodes he's in. He's useless those nodes. He is somewhat viable in mono white cause of good supports.
He should have access to all cards to make him viable. Facing Karn in TG or all color across Ixalan does not indicate a powerful PW; he's basically a free win just like many cycling decks.
Restriction to node color was unnecessary and frankly pointless. On paper, having access to all colors would make him OP. In reality, he is below average.

Karn is not below average. He can use all colors in all PVE. That's top tier.

GrizzoMtGPQ

Gilded Lotus is far from pay to win. It's good. You won't win just because you cast it. At two supports it gets destroyed almost instantly.

Gunmix25

Chavez303 said:

I paid money for Karn......would i have paid money for him knowing lotus was going to be nerfed that hard.....probably not.  But it wouldn't have stopped me paying for him with crystals.  

The point is people put down cash for a whole product.  That product is now changing.  I get it why people are upset.  I'm one of them. 

I agree with Gabrosin.  Its pretty much pay for something the general populace will never get.  I dont think thats right either. 

At this point, none of this surprises me....shame on me for thinking it would be better.

You do realize that Karn was among the cheapest PWs to have gone up for sale, right?  That and he is among the strongest PWs ... period. Like @GrizzoMtGPQ said, he is a top tier PW.

babar3355 said:

The point is, you cant make the argument that people paid cash for Karn rather than waiting to buy him for crystals, just so they would get Gilded Lotus.  Because they would get Gilded Lotus if they bought Karn for crystals too.  So the only argument is they wouldn't have bought Karn, even for crystals, in Gilded Lotus'  nerfed form.

If that what people are saying, then I think they are either blowing smoke or haven't played him enough to understand his power.

I also agree with everything @babar3355 is saying too. I don't know a soul in here that is willing to shell out that much cash for a single rare … unless … it was for a PW  

All I know is that this discussion is being watched by D3 and Oktagon and all of those players who said that they bought the pack just for Gilded Lotus... a rare of all things. and not Karn is only going to be giving them ideas that they can jack up the price thinking that "hey, these guys were willing to pay $20 for just Gilded lotus, a single rare and here we are selling three rares at $3.99?!?!?"

Seriously, what do you think will happen?

khurram

Karn has been the cheapest pw that has been put up for sale. Including gilded lotus in the package was indeed honestly just icing on the cake. Were we expecting such a card to come with him when they announced Karn? No. Even if he had all commons in his deck he is such a unique and fun PW that it would have been a hard to miss purchase, as far as the cash offers go for this game.

FindingHeart8 said:

babar3355 said:

jtwood said:

babar3355 said:

Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

Go on

Ok, Karn is by far the strongest planeswalker in the game in colorless nodes, and better than any of the mono-walkers for colored nodes.  He also has the most options in the game which makes him fun to experiment with..  Anyone who would not buy him for crystals doesn't really understand the game... lol

that's a pretty strong claim you're making there...though I can't fully contest it (as I'm yet to purchase Karn), I'd wager that as strong as he may be, he's not incontestably the strongest in colored nodes (in all color nodes though I'd definitely agree with you).

And I, my good sir, have a stupendous understanding of this game!  **except for the new parts I haven't read yet...but we're not counting those

Ah, yes yes, you are the "master" of this game and you spare no opportunity making such claims but honestly, you skim through the notes? and did not know how Karn worked? I am very very disappointed in you.

As a mono colored pw I'd only probably play Jace, Unraveler of Secrets or Ob Nixilis over Karn, but may be not even them. Whatever the top tier mono walkers are in your opinion, Karn is right up there with them, if not significantly better. 

Karn is like a box of chocolates. Its fun discovering his potential with different color combinations.

EDIT: I just remembered that Karn has not been the cheapest, the mono colored PWs have traditionally been for 15$ cash, but those were mono colored, so I'm still kinda right. 

ZW2007-

babar3355 said:

Personally, I don't think it was a bait and switch.  Everyone should have realized that if they waited to buy Karn for crystals they ALSO would have received Gilded Lotus in his starter deck.  Similar to how Nicol Bolas comes with Unesh.  

So the only argument can be that ACCESS to Gilded Lotus for the last month was the reason for your Karn purchase.  But you already got access to it for the last month in it's current form.  So you got exactly what you wanted.  Now if you are arguing that you would not buy Karn even for crystals in the current form of Gilded Lotus, then I guess there is a fair point.  But I really have a hard time buying that argument.

However, I will agree that the nerf to Gilded Lotus was probably unnecessary and certainly way too severe. 

While I don't necessarily agree with your sentiment, I agree with the fact that almost everyone would buy Karn with crystals once available which means that almost everyone would have access to Gilded Lotus. This is exactly the problem, from the perspective of D3GO/Oktagon/whoever. They made a very powerful rare that almost everyone will have and can use in all their decks. Anyone remember my buddy Sage of Ancient Lore? They gave him away as a reward that almost everyone got and he was really good. They decided to hit him with the nerf bat for exactly that reason, it was really good and everyone had it for essentially free.

They said it is too powerful for what it does and the fact that it is available to any deck. Here are three other cards that give extra mana without converting gems that are also available to any deck:
1. Pyramid of the Pantheon
2. Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
3. Drownyard Temple

Pyramid is both cheaper and arguably stronger because redundant copies have added value beyond increasing the number of shields. It also happens to be a mythic so this makes sense. It's also in standard but will rotate one 2.7 goes live.

Shrine is both cheaper and potentially better since it is online faster and gives more mana. In three turns, Shrine would give 9 mana. In those same three turns you would have to make at least 5 match-3 or more moves to generate more mana. Shrine also has activate gems to pump out colorless cards faster.

Drownyard temple costs slightly more and (same as Shrine) potentially gives more mana. This card is the closest equivalent comparison to Lotus and has the added bonus of being nice discard fodder and more resilient to removal since it is easy to return it/cheat into play.

Are/were any of those cards that game breaking? I never heard anyone complain about the power level of any of those cards. Instead, those are cards that everyone wanted to get their hands on. In fact, Shrine of the Forsaken Gods was a cash sale (I think for $15 at the time). I feel like they just couldn't stomach everyone getting such a good card so easily.

That to me makes it feel like a bait and switch, a shady move, whatever you want to call it. Doesn't really matter to me what you call it or what they call it, I call it a bad move in the long term for them because it endlessly angered a lot of people for no good reason other than their bottom line.

jtwood

Gunmix25 said:

I also agree with everything @babar3355 is saying too. I don't know a soul in here that is willing to shell out that much cash for a single rare … unless … it was for a PW  

All I know is that this discussion is being watched by D3 and Oktagon and all of those players who said that they bought the pack just for Gilded Lotus... a rare of all things. and not Karn is only going to be giving them ideas that they can jack up the price thinking that "hey, these guys were willing to pay $20 for just Gilded lotus, a single rare and here we are selling three rares at $3.99?!?!?"

Seriously, what do you think will happen?

Well, now you know one (sort of). Hi!

I paid $20 for Gilded Lotus + Karn (not the other way around).

• I evaluated Gilded Lotus as being very powerful.
• There is no guarantee I will open any card. Only probabilities.
• Crafting every rare in a new set would take a long time. That means the guaranteed minimum cost of a rare is pretty high in free-to-play terms
• Karn is a PW with a fixed, known cost. It's not even an oppressive cost in FtP terms. And to some extent, I can buy him at my convenience.

Since the Lotus bundle came with Karn, I paid for it knowing that it would probably be 2 months before I could even use Karn - but Lotus was a powerful card that I could use now and in a lot of places right away. There was no risk that I would never open it or not craft it. The value seemed to be there in my mind.

What I didn't realize was that the Lotus always came with Karn even if I got him later for crystals. With that knowledge now, I can say that I would have just waited and not spent the cash. So that was my mistake for not understanding how they sell stuff in this game. I'll openly admit that.

But I stand by my original logic: Paying cash to remove chance from an outcome is really the best way to spend money in this game (assuming you want to pay money at all). PWs can always be had for a known price. There is no chance in acquiring them. Other cards - even lower rarity cards* - are not guaranteed without spending a lot of crystals to be able to craft every card. So if you have a chance to straight up buy a card, it makes sense to consider the offer. The only question is: Is it good enough for the price?

*I've been playing for around 7 months now and I only now opened Demolish over the weekend :-/

__Adam

Gunmix25 said:

Chavez303 said:

I paid money for Karn......would i have paid money for him knowing lotus was going to be nerfed that hard.....probably not.  But it wouldn't have stopped me paying for him with crystals.  

The point is people put down cash for a whole product.  That product is now changing.  I get it why people are upset.  I'm one of them. 

I agree with Gabrosin.  Its pretty much pay for something the general populace will never get.  I dont think thats right either. 

At this point, none of this surprises me....shame on me for thinking it would be better.

You do realize that Karn was among the cheapest PWs to have gone up for sale, right?  That and he is among the strongest PWs ... period. Like @GrizzoMtGPQ said, he is a top tier PW.

babar3355 said:

The point is, you cant make the argument that people paid cash for Karn rather than waiting to buy him for crystals, just so they would get Gilded Lotus.  Because they would get Gilded Lotus if they bought Karn for crystals too.  So the only argument is they wouldn't have bought Karn, even for crystals, in Gilded Lotus'  nerfed form.

If that what people are saying, then I think they are either blowing smoke or haven't played him enough to understand his power.

I also agree with everything @babar3355 is saying too. I don't know a soul in here that is willing to shell out that much cash for a single rare … unless … it was for a PW  

All I know is that this discussion is being watched by D3 and Oktagon and all of those players who said that they bought the pack just for Gilded Lotus... a rare of all things. and not Karn is only going to be giving them ideas that they can jack up the price thinking that "hey, these guys were willing to pay $20 for just Gilded lotus, a single rare and here we are selling three rares at $3.99?!?!?"

Seriously, what do you think will happen?

The rarity of the card is entirely irrelevant, as are the exact legalities involved.

People liked the what the bundle allowed them to do with their existing collection of PWs and cards. They liked its utility in the current meta and events.  They felt that impact provided enough value to justify a purchase.  Less than a month later they are no longer getting the value they paid for.  Its not unreasonable to be upset. 

At this point people are arguing over intent (malice vs incompetence) but I don't know that it's relevant; either way it's a breach of trust and a loss of confidence. Considering that they've done this before, and stand to profit from it (again), I think either side could make a compelling case:

bait-and-switch

noun

noun: bait-and-switch

1. the action (generally illegal) of advertising goods that are an apparent bargain, with the intention of substituting inferior or more expensive goods.

   "a bait-and-switch scheme"

Gunmix25

--Adam said:

Gunmix25 said:

Chavez303 said:

I paid money for Karn......would i have paid money for him knowing lotus was going to be nerfed that hard.....probably not.  But it wouldn't have stopped me paying for him with crystals.  

The point is people put down cash for a whole product.  That product is now changing.  I get it why people are upset.  I'm one of them. 

I agree with Gabrosin.  Its pretty much pay for something the general populace will never get.  I dont think thats right either. 

At this point, none of this surprises me....shame on me for thinking it would be better.

You do realize that Karn was among the cheapest PWs to have gone up for sale, right?  That and he is among the strongest PWs ... period. Like @GrizzoMtGPQ said, he is a top tier PW.

babar3355 said:

The point is, you cant make the argument that people paid cash for Karn rather than waiting to buy him for crystals, just so they would get Gilded Lotus.  Because they would get Gilded Lotus if they bought Karn for crystals too.  So the only argument is they wouldn't have bought Karn, even for crystals, in Gilded Lotus'  nerfed form.

If that what people are saying, then I think they are either blowing smoke or haven't played him enough to understand his power.

I also agree with everything @babar3355 is saying too. I don't know a soul in here that is willing to shell out that much cash for a single rare … unless … it was for a PW  

All I know is that this discussion is being watched by D3 and Oktagon and all of those players who said that they bought the pack just for Gilded Lotus... a rare of all things. and not Karn is only going to be giving them ideas that they can jack up the price thinking that "hey, these guys were willing to pay $20 for just Gilded lotus, a single rare and here we are selling three rares at $3.99?!?!?"

Seriously, what do you think will happen?

The rarity of the card is entirely irrelevant, as are the exact legalities involved.

People liked the what the bundle allowed them to do with their existing collection of PWs and cards. They liked its utility in the current meta and events.  They felt that impact provided enough value to justify a purchase.  Less than a month later they are no longer getting the value they paid for.  Its not unreasonable to be upset. 

At this point people are arguing over intent (malice vs incompetence) but I don't know that it's relevant; either way it's a breach of trust and a loss of confidence. Considering that they've done this before, and stand to profit from it (again), I think either side could make a compelling case:

bait-and-switch

noun

noun: bait-and-switch

1. the action (generally illegal) of advertising goods that are an apparent bargain, with the intention of substituting inferior or more expensive goods.

   "a bait-and-switch scheme"

No need to be redundant,  everyone here knows the definition.  

That said, explain overwatch and the nerfs they make almost monthly and how that isn't bait and switch? Bevause they offer  new characters and these releases are a draw to new players,  yet quite often they need to nerf abilities that the devs deem to be game breaking... despite players who think otherwise. 

To claim bait and switch you need evidence that the intent to switch out product prior to the sale had existed.  Something that no one here had been able to.  

Changes  occur to the game. When a card is banned in paper MTG... is it bait and switch? When Mercy's ult is tweaked after having bought the game to play her, is it bait and switch? When I paid for Baral, was it bait and switch when they nerfed him? When I bought Destiny I was promised up to the latest PS console release for the life of that game which would receive new content, only to have the game cancelled for the next version. That bait and switch? Granted the latter is long term but that was the promise they made to players,  up to 7 years of game life on one purchase. The changes occured but none of these had original intent to switch and honestly believe their business handlings were just that. Honest.

Kinesia

People are arguing over intent because intent is the core of ""bait and switch"", if it wasn't their intent then that isn't what happened.

If I trip and stab you with a knife or whether I do it on purpose, you hurt exactly the same either way, but intent is _completely_ relevant as to the type of upset I have with you, how much trust I offer you in the future, whether you get more chances, all the important things.

Intent is far more important than whatever happened because intent decides whether we can have a relationship in the future, whereas whatever trivial day to day thing that happened... That's already past and mostly meaningless.  Only the intent and the nature of the future relationship have any bearing or interest.

sherman2

So 80 crystals is nice refund but what if I have no recept left on my gmail?

andrewvanmarle

Kinesia said:

People are arguing over intent because intent is the core of ""bait and switch"", if it wasn't their intent then that isn't what happened.

If I trip and stab you with a knife or whether I do it on purpose, you hurt exactly the same either way, but intent is _completely_ relevant as to the type of upset I have with you, how much trust I offer you in the future, whether you get more chances, all the important things.

Intent is far more important than whatever happened because intent decides whether we can have a relationship in the future, whereas whatever trivial day to day thing that happened... That's already past and mostly meaningless.  Only the intent and the nature of the future relationship have any bearing or interest.

not true because even if you dont intend to, if you keep tripping and stabbing me, I wont trust you when you are near. 

As far as the annoucement and the 80 gems: im not really impressed. 

As far as the reasoning: that a card is an auto include shows it's flexibility not the over poweredness of a card.

it would be like nerfing drownyard temple of that shrine or even some of the basic lands.


anyway....

span_argoman

@andrewvanmarle A card which is an auto-include shows its flexibility and not that it's overpowered?

Even in the best case scenario, an auto-include means that actual deckbuilding option for building a competitive deck takes a hit cause you always need to have that card in the deck.

Just like Corrupted Grafstone or Shrine of the Forsaken Gods, and Tamiyo's Journal back in the days of SOI.

It's an auto-include because it is a superior option to other cards which would serve the same function. That makes it overpowered in its category.