Gilded Lotus: Bait and switch

Gunmix25

Gabrosin said:

Thuran said:

This is not a case of false advertising, nor was there any kind of promise that these cards would never be changed. 

It is not a case of being promised a card down the line, and then receiving a different card; You got the +2 Gilded lotus upon purchase.
 

One of two things is true: they changed the Lotus's stats on a whim in the brief time period between the conclusion of the Karn sale and the posting of the card gallery, or they were collecting money for the Karn/Lotus package while knowing that the Lotus was about to change and not communicating that fact to prospective purchasers.

Neither is a good look for the game.

"Whim" would imply that they changed it for tinykitty and giggles. Extremely unlikely as no outfit applies this kind of logic to their business... Ever. 

The latter is purely speculation... or more correctly sounds like a conspiracy. Again unlikely.  

Simplest solution is often the right one. ... when lotus came out some players began posting that this card is too powerful.  Myself and others counter argued that it wasn't due to its fragile 2 shields.  Sadly Okatagon has shown in the past that if one complains enough,  you get what you want.  hence the move to tweak lotus. In this case they went with the minority opinion about lotus.  

I fully expect Lotus to be retweaked to 2 mana gain but will keep its new 9 mana cost because a larger collective feels it has been over nerfed. 

Rhasget

Gunmix25 said:

Gabrosin said:

Thuran said:

This is not a case of false advertising, nor was there any kind of promise that these cards would never be changed. 

It is not a case of being promised a card down the line, and then receiving a different card; You got the +2 Gilded lotus upon purchase.
 

One of two things is true: they changed the Lotus's stats on a whim in the brief time period between the conclusion of the Karn sale and the posting of the card gallery, or they were collecting money for the Karn/Lotus package while knowing that the Lotus was about to change and not communicating that fact to prospective purchasers.

Neither is a good look for the game.

"Whim" would imply that they changed it for tinykitty and giggles. Extremely unlikely as no outfit applies this kind of logic to their business... Ever. 

The latter is purely speculation... or more correctly sounds like a conspiracy. Again unlikely.  

Simplest solution is often the right one. ... when lotus came out some players began posting that this card is too powerful.  Myself and others counter argued that it wasn't due to its fragile 2 shields.  Sadly Okatagon has shown in the past that if one complains enough,  you get what you want.  hence the move to tweak lotus. In this case they went with the minority opinion about lotus.  

I fully expect Lotus to be retweaked to 2 mana gain but will keep its new 9 mana cost because a larger collective feels it has been over nerfed. 

If they tweaked it because of a minority on this forum instead of based on their data, isn't that doing it 'on a whim'?

For me this situation is about the actions and decisions they have made to set the precedent.

If I buy another card/PW pre-release or such in the future how long will I have just what I bought and not a changed product? Are we paying for being their Beta-testers?

I spend a little money since I like the game and want to support it but things like this just puts me off from it.

morgue427

up the cost i cant understand doing that, it does have a serious impact on the pw it is out for but a nerf and cost increase is way to much, turned it into a 0/0 wall that cant block or attack, useless and wont see any play time

TomB

I almost bought the Karn package, in large part because of the inclusion of Gilded Lotus, but I held back due to my lack of runes to level Karn and the thought that I'd just pick him up later for Crystals and get both then. Boy, am I glad I waited and didn't spend my $20...

Darker

If people get what they want when they complain loud enough what is the best venue to do it?  As others have stated, I buy crystals here and there to support the game but this is the first and last time I splurge.  Now enough of us won’t even give them that much.  I was buying lotus, not Karn...  Karn came along for the ride.  But hey, I guess the devs got what they wanted right?  A cheap cash grab.  I hope it offsets the amount of revenue they’re gonna lose from all the people they’ve turned off

andrewvanmarle

khurram said:

Remember that initial blog post by Octagon? When talking about qualifiers for balancing, they said a card will meet "Gishath's sharp teeth" if:-

• The card is the cornerstone of a one-deck metagame, with the deck being linear AND unplayable by the AI.
• The card creates the feeling of a Pay Wall, due to rarity limitations and its part in a truly overpowered deck.
• The card is overshadowing all other strategies and stifling all player options in certain events.

Do the cards that came with Karn meet that criteria?
No.
So why does Gishath gets to munch on these?
If anything has changed they should clarify.

Because now it definitely feels like a bait and switch regardless of what their intention was.

I agree fully with the above. 

It just doesn't feel right. 

Gunmix25

Rhasget said:

Gunmix25 said:

Gabrosin said:

Thuran said:

This is not a case of false advertising, nor was there any kind of promise that these cards would never be changed. 

It is not a case of being promised a card down the line, and then receiving a different card; You got the +2 Gilded lotus upon purchase.
 

One of two things is true: they changed the Lotus's stats on a whim in the brief time period between the conclusion of the Karn sale and the posting of the card gallery, or they were collecting money for the Karn/Lotus package while knowing that the Lotus was about to change and not communicating that fact to prospective purchasers.

Neither is a good look for the game.

"Whim" would imply that they changed it for tinykitty and giggles. Extremely unlikely as no outfit applies this kind of logic to their business... Ever. 

The latter is purely speculation... or more correctly sounds like a conspiracy. Again unlikely.  

Simplest solution is often the right one. ... when lotus came out some players began posting that this card is too powerful.  Myself and others counter argued that it wasn't due to its fragile 2 shields.  Sadly Okatagon has shown in the past that if one complains enough,  you get what you want.  hence the move to tweak lotus. In this case they went with the minority opinion about lotus.  

I fully expect Lotus to be retweaked to 2 mana gain but will keep its new 9 mana cost because a larger collective feels it has been over nerfed. 

If they tweaked it because of a minority on this forum instead of based on their data, isn't that doing it 'on a whim'?

For me this situation is about the actions and decisions they have made to set the precedent.

If I buy another card/PW pre-release or such in the future how long will I have just what I bought and not a changed product? Are we paying for being their Beta-testers?

I spend a little money since I like the game and want to support it but things like this just puts me off from it.
 

Apparently, one person's whim is another person's wise decision and vice versa. Really?

It cannot be Whim simply because we all know why they decided to change it, the primary issue is that we, the majority,  do not agree with it.  Whim suggests an unknown and unexplained reason. For the record,  them not stating why doesn't count, because it's blatantly obvious as to why they did. If it wasn't we wouldn't have a huge thread or two arguing about this specific nerf, no? 

Anyways, they made a decision,  I don't like it one bit either and truly hope they make an adjustment to that nerf before the release

FindingHeart8

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

Gunmix25

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

Not sure if you are being facetious, lol But here's the gist.

Karn: colorless node: has access to all colors

Karn: colored nodes

Green node, can only use green or colorless cards

 White node, can only use white or colorless cards

 Blue node, can only use blue or colorless cards

 Red node, can only use red or colorless cards

 Black node, can only use black or colorless cards

Theros

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

Yes only the colors of the nodes he's in. He's useless those nodes. He is somewhat viable in mono white cause of good supports.
He should have access to all cards to make him viable. Facing Karn in TG or all color across Ixalan does not indicate a powerful PW; he's basically a free win just like many cycling decks.
Restriction to node color was unnecessary and frankly pointless. On paper, having access to all colors would make him OP. In reality, he is below average.

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

I don't own Karn, so I wasn't aware of his limitations.  I honestly thought he was the skeleton key for every node, not just an over-glorified monoplaneswalker outside of training grounds and a few occasional events

Mburn7

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

I don't own Karn, so I wasn't aware of his limitations.  I honestly thought he was the skeleton key for every node, not just an over-glorified monoplaneswalker outside of training grounds and a few occasional events

Fair enough.  It is actually a very well done balance.  He's super powerful for any-color nodes, but those are for the most part PvE or legacy where it doesn't matter.

He's at his best in TG, though.  Just ALL the combos

Mainloop25

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

I don't own Karn, so I wasn't aware of his limitations.  I honestly thought he was the skeleton key for every node, not just an over-glorified monoplaneswalker outside of training grounds and a few occasional events

I don't own him either but it was spelled out pretty clearly in the pre-release notes. 

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

I don't own Karn, so I wasn't aware of his limitations.  I honestly thought he was the skeleton key for every node, not just an over-glorified monoplaneswalker outside of training grounds and a few occasional events

I don't own him either but it was spelled out pretty clearly in the pre-release notes. 

@mainloop25 totally feels like you're scolding me right now like a teacher to a kid who didn't do his homework.

Fine, ya got me!  I totally skimmed the pre-release notes, and then went back later...planning on reading it...but just winded up skimming it again. 

FindingHeart8

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

I don't own Karn, so I wasn't aware of his limitations.  I honestly thought he was the skeleton key for every node, not just an over-glorified monoplaneswalker outside of training grounds and a few occasional events

Fair enough.  It is actually a very well done balance.  He's super powerful for any-color nodes, but those are for the most part PvE or legacy where it doesn't matter.

He's at his best in TG, though.  Just ALL the combos

Interesting!!  Yeah I have no doubt he's pretty amazing in TG.  However, I already have an optimized 2-min ave-per-victory R/W deck for that.

Starting to wonder if Karn is worth his weight even just with the crystal purchase, with node restrictions and wilted lotus.  Was so excited about this guy too

Gilesclone

He’s definitely worth the crystals.  Runes are another question altogether 

bk1234

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Mburn7 said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Sarahschmara said:

Thank you @fight4thedream apology accepted. I think it was an honest mistake and I do hope you get well soon @Brigby

Now I can get back to being irritated at the actual problem. 

No, I don’t actually think that Gilded Lotus was broken in its initial form. I thought it was a very, very good card and, like others have mentioned, it was the main reason I bought Karn... I think that it is too limiting to restrict him to only the color of the node, rather than give him access to all the cards. I may as well just use a dual color PW instead. But I knew about that and, to me, Gilded Lotus made up for it. I probably would not have purchased Karn without it. 

In the past, it’s taken months of outrage before gamebreakers were nerfed and we predicted just how broken they would be and asked them to change it before release (see Baral—we all kinda knew Baral would change).  In this case, I don’t think Gilded Lotus is game-breaking so I wasn’t expecting it and I’m mostly mad at myself because I’m feeling foolish. 

wait...he can only use the colors of the node he's in?  Are you serious???

You didn't know that?  Yes, Karn is limited to the colors of the node he's in.  So for example, using Karn in today's Across Ixalan: Blue would make him essentially a mono-blue walker.

For PvE events and any-color nodes, however, Karn can use literally anything.  So that's really where he shines

I don't own Karn, so I wasn't aware of his limitations.  I honestly thought he was the skeleton key for every node, not just an over-glorified monoplaneswalker outside of training grounds and a few occasional events

Fair enough.  It is actually a very well done balance.  He's super powerful for any-color nodes, but those are for the most part PvE or legacy where it doesn't matter.

He's at his best in TG, though.  Just ALL the combos

He's insane in PvE and also on the bottom nodes of HoD. 

On mono and dual nodes he's still very powerful -- 1. He has 6 supports, that's insane and 2. He has the fetch the desire of your dreams ability. I have never lost with him in mono or dual. I actually have more trouble in open nodes because it's almost too many choices. 

Chavez303

I dont post often....but this is a bit shady to me.  I don think lotus was broken.  I've played with it extensively and it always seems to get popped quickly.  This isn't like Baral or Seasons Past.  They took a perfectly fine card and shanked it.  

I guess after the update its coming out of my decks.

Gilesclone

It wasn’t in all my decks before.  It’s in none of them now.

And Jousting Javelin.  What’s up with that?  It was pretty useless before the nerf!