Changes to PVP bracket creation? Devs please comment

daveomite

wharrrgarbl wrote:

daveomite wrote:

pasa_ wrote:

Just an idea, the new bracketing might consider the player's day count.

You mean as in how many days they've been playing? I just got the daily reward for my 78th day in game, so, I'm pretty sure my day count is lower than most of the others in the bracket of death 1 & 2.

I believe I was in the same death bracket as you for Top Gun; I'm on day 59 today.
I think day count would be a dicey metric since someone could just log in and play for the daily reward. Though given some other dicey metrics added (e.g. scaling via HP loss), I guess that wouldn't rule it out by itself.

yes...we were in the same bracket. At least, pretty sure you were based on the postings in the Top Gun thread.

morgh

I'm actually starting to rethink playing this game even though it saddens me as hell, since I love Marvel universe, collecting stuff and levelling thus gaining power... however I am locked out of PvE and PvP is starting to be a TERRIBLY TEDIOUS CHORE... Getting to 850 from 0 with 141 lvl teams all the way took way too much time today, and I only have 141 LT and 138 C.Mags - those two can defeat anything right now but soon C.Mag will get nurfed to the ground and this will be the end of me somewhat progressing it seems...

Hopefully the next changes are going to be for the better instead of for the worse as usually recently...

Unknown

I wouldn't be sure it's only pvp. My sons joined the PVE shortly after each other and ended up in two different brackets.

Unknown

I was in the Nemek and Krow death bracket for Top Gun. I ended up around 855 and got to 63rd place in Top Gun. People were worth a lot more points, so the climb wasn't as bad for me, but I hadn't hit 141's yet. I have 5 maxed 2*'s, Lv. 80 Pun, Lv. 70 Patch and Hulk, and Lv. 50 Lazy Cap and Lazy Thor. I have spent some money on the game and did buy two OBW covers to get her to optimal setup for me. I'm on day 111 and my alliance is currently #29 in the season and I have 6636 in the season and am ranked 86.

I don't know if this data will be helpful for anyone, but I am holding off on joining the Rags tourney until I know a little more about why I was in the bracket I was in the last time. I missed out on Red Patch for the nth time and it was frustrating. Though, I don't care as much about Loki, I'd like to score top 50 if possible and without shield hopping.

Infrared

I have a newish account on an iPod Touch. Used it to enter the Krakadoom tournament about a minute apart from my main account and got different brackets for each one. My main account's bracket has members from several top ranking alliances. The new account is in an easy bracket where the #10 spot currently is at 466 points. Obviously this sucks for anyone who isn't a new player, as many others have already stated.

I get that there is a need to provide new players a chance at winning. But this needs to be done in an open manner, with the rules laid out for all to see. In some sports competitions, players are separated by weight class. In others, there are brackets by age group, or of amateur & professional. This is fine, especially if the rewards scale with the effort needed to compete in the bracket you are in. However, when I go to the "Event Rules" page in the game, I don't see any mention of bracketing or MMR. Or any kind of rules at all.

Unknown

Hi all i have some info to share.. I can partially confirm PVP bracket is not base on MMR.. Will need to see the final results from Rag PVP and the next PVP..

daveomite

Rajjeq wrote:

I wouldn't be sure it's only pvp. My sons joined the PVE shortly after each other and ended up in two different brackets.

I agree, I think it's everything. The better half and I both started rags at the same time. My bracket with top alliance members, hers with a top score of 433.

Then we both joined the latest Osborn bracket, same thing...completely different brackets.

Tharos

I joined the ragnarock event only now, with 1.5 day left. As soon as I enter this bracket, the leader is shielded with more than 900 points. Nearly all people from #1 to #10 have several level 141. It is taking the same way as previous events, with top 10 over 1100 points.

There is definitly something going on, and not for the best for my 2* roster. How I am supposed to win 3* covers now that pvp is becoming impossible for me?

daveomite

Infrared wrote:

I have a newish account on an iPod Touch. Used it to enter the Krakadoom tournament about a minute apart from my main account and got different brackets for each one. My main account's bracket has members from several top ranking alliances. The new account is in an easy bracket where the #10 spot currently is at 466 points. Obviously this sucks for anyone who isn't a new player, as many others have already stated.

I get that there is a need to provide new players a chance at winning. But this needs to be done in an open manner, with the rules laid out for all to see. In some sports competitions, players are separated by weight class. In others, there are brackets by age group, or of amateur & professional. This is fine, especially if the I think it's great if they want things to be be competitive. Great. But TU1's post/point, which many of us are in agreement with, just throwing in massive scaling increases is not making this more scale with the effort needed to compete in the bracket you are in. However, when I go to the "Event Rules" page in the game, I don't see any mention of bracketing or MMR. Or any kind of rules at all.

what if...This is just an idea...they did something like this.

They have 3-4 different classes of players/brackets.

1 for 1*'s, all kinds. This would be a starter/beginner class. Giving them enough time to train/level up. In this class would be fully leveled 1* teams and those brand new players. So, for a time, the fully leveled 1*'s can feel like the king of their domain.

For that group/class - PvP reward structure would feature new/rare 1*'s and some 2* rewards. So, it would force them to focus on obtaining as many 1*'s and eventually, 2*'s as possible. The further they progress, and let's say, a random number here, once they have 3 2* characters, and all of their 1*'s are leveled up, they are then moved to a new class, the 2* group.

same basic premise, they come into that class at the bottom, with very new 2* characters at their disposal, and can continue to use 1* characters too. In this class, the events are again, geared to their class, with top prizes being more 2*'s to flesh out their crew, and certain events feature 3* rewards.

again, the objective for them would be to level up as many 2*'s as possible, then slowly introduce them to 3*'s. Once they have 3 of those, then their bracket changes again.

When they come into the 3* class, they really still only have 2*'s mainly, and 3 3*'s with hardly any covers/leveling. So, that still gives the 3* class "bottom feeders" to go after, but allows that new group to at least be a stage better than what they would probably normally be.

It would force players to obtain and level up characters. That, something like requirements, they must level a certain number of 1*, 2* characters in each class. Each character grants an achievement once leveled all the way. So, part of their focus and direction wouldn't be trying to constantly jump over the 2* group to get to 3* faster, they would have to progress by leveling characters.

Could even go so far as to have certain 2* only PvP's where a requirement would be, for instance, an 85 storm or obw. If they don't have one, they can't enter. They have to continue to level, with other pvp's open to them, or pve's with adjusted rewards structures for their class.

It's a bit out there, but as the game has grown, the issues have started coming up with scaling, and mmr, etc. All of that is part due to them trying, and not always so great, to keep a somewhat "level playing field". What I'm talking about would hopefully curb some of that need, as we'd no longer have someone with <50 1*'s at the top of a pve bracket.

Those players would be in their own bracket, with other 1*'s. We'd still have top prizes like the new Daken, but they would have top prizes like a new 1* or new 2*. Since we wouldn't all be in the same playing field, they could throw things like scaling out the window. Same for brackets, it would eliminate a lot of the issues they seem to be having with the system now. It would also stop the walls lower players hit, hopefully giving them their own set of challenges and goals, all while allowing them to progress in a truer form.

it would open the door for D3 to create and release new 1*'s, maybe even "gold" class ones. Same with 2*'s. So, more revenue for the game, more directed events and characters, all leading them to achieve access to the next class group. Once they're in the main 3* class, then maybe 4*'s are present as well. There may not need to be other classes, just those main three.

This game is sort of like a cities network of roads. The roads that were made in the city 50 years ago weren't made for the hundreds of thousands who live in it now, so they have to make new, better roads. The game has grown and thousands and thousands of new players start all the time. Retention of those players is paramount for D3's revenue, and for continued growth of the game.

But, the system, as it was, wasn't working, or so they thought. They started making adjustments to compensate and to try to better serve the masses, not the specialized players that have been playing the game from inception. In the process, they actually made a few mistakes and miscalculations of what impact those changes would have. I believe we are now witnessing the outcome of those changes each new day.

Just a random thought. Long form, lol. Typed this out on my phone, sorry for any spelling errors.

over_clocked

Infrared wrote:

I have a newish account on an iPod Touch. Used it to enter the Krakadoom tournament about a minute apart from my main account and got different brackets for each one. My main account's bracket has members from several top ranking alliances. The new account is in an easy bracket where the #10 spot currently is at 466 points. Obviously this sucks for anyone who isn't a new player, as many others have already stated.

I get that there is a need to provide new players a chance at winning. But this needs to be done in an open manner, with the rules laid out for all to see. In some sports competitions, players are separated by weight class. In others, there are brackets by age group, or of amateur & professional. This is fine, especially if the rewards scale with the effort needed to compete in the bracket you are in. However, when I go to the "Event Rules" page in the game, I don't see any mention of bracketing or MMR. Or any kind of rules at all.

I got myself an easy bracket in Krakadoom, but I entered earlier than usual. Got hard brackets for Top Gun and Doctor's Orders, where I needed rewards badly. As I don't need Loki covers, all I can think of is luck and Murphy's Law.

Unknown

There's a very big problem with pve joining by mmr that doesn't exist in pvp joining. My son's bracket, when he joined last night, had a leader with over 13k points. Which means the bracket was very old, and had existed through multiple refreshes. Which means he has basically no hope of a Daken cover. It's like they've taken the oscorp situation with the points, and decided we all should have to deal with the same situation, every pve.

Unknown

Tanked myself to 1* land to see if I'll get into the easy bracket but nope, still in a bracket with 141s, so looks like it's not really MMR.

My speculation is that maybe they just segregated those with no max 2*, pehaps roster level less than 85 and put them into a separate pool for bracketing. Since the majority of their playerbase are probably there, we end up seeing much more concentrated top tier brackets and higher likelihood of getting into a bracket of death. Anyone with an alt account with close to max 2* that could test this out?

Rajjeq, what are your two sons' rosters like?

Unknown

Tried joining with 2 accounts today.

Main account - top 10 avg hero lvl 100. Got into a bracket where I already saw 4 people I've been also bracketed with in Top Gun and Docters Orders. Current top ten is already shielded and around 1000 points.

Steam account - Mix of * and ** heroes all low level. Got into a bracket with complete unknowns. Currently 1st place is at hardcore 300 points with a roster of avg lvl 50.

Unknown

miucat wrote:

Tanked myself to 1* land to see if I'll get into the easy bracket but nope, still in a bracket with 141s, so looks like it's not really MMR.

My speculation is that maybe they just segregated those with no max 2*, pehaps roster level less than 85 and put them into a separate pool for bracketing. Since the majority of their playerbase are probably there, we end up seeing much more concentrated top tier brackets and higher likelihood of getting into a bracket of death. Anyone with an alt account with close to max 2* that could test this out?

Rajjeq, what are your two sons' rosters like?

One is a 5 year old with his highest character being a 40 something Ironman, and various 1 stars and a few unlevelled 2*/3* from token openings. The other has multiple maxed 85s and a number of 100ish 3*s and has done well in various pve/pvps.

simonsez

miucat wrote:

My speculation is that maybe they just segregated those with no max 2*, pehaps roster level less than 85 and put them into a separate pool for bracketing.

If that's what they did, they should have also segregated people with 2's and no functional 3's. Why should those lower level guys get to play against themselves, while mid-tier transitional players are stuck having to go against 141's?

Unknown

The latest changes are totally FUBAR. About 4 tournaments ago, things actually reached a perfect balance. I don't remember which tourney it was now, but basically things started out as beating 1*-2* teams up to about 400, then 2*-3* teams up to about 800, and then 3*- 3 141 teams the rest of the way. This was excellent because the challenge increased as you went up, as it should be.

Now it's just complete 3* - 3 141 teams right from the get go.

And let's get one thing right out of the way - every max 141 team can beat every other max 141 team out there, just some take longer than others so you pick and choose based on how many points they are worth and if you decide to skip them because you know them on some level.

This makes PvP unfriendly and frustrating for 2 main reasons now:

1) During your climb, you are beating teams that can all retaliate now. You no longer are doing your early climb through teams that will likely choose to skip you. This means the more you climb, the more likely you are going to be retaliated on since you are worth more points...usually at time you don't want to be retaliated on (high 900-1000 range).

2) People with max rosters that start their climb late will be getting max points and hitting people on their way up...also with max rosters. The MMR range is HUGE now as I was getting hit by people with 900-1000 points below my level. That is not a misprint. This means towards the end players who started earlier will be getting hit for -40 to -50 points, while looking for fights worth +20 to +30.

Also...if the brackets are supposedly so "huge", why do I see the same 4 or 5 people show up time and time again? Someone 1000 points below me can hit me, but somehow I can only see the same 4 or 5 people worth 20 pts to hit?

All these changes are designed to get us to use more HP on shields. You had it perfect about 4 tournaments ago, you should go back and see how you can change things back. I honestly don't mind retals, but the way your point system works I'm never going to retal against someone whose worth 7 pts when they hit me for -45. You need to narrow your MMR range so people even 300 pts below you can't see you, because no one should have to lose 40-50 points a fight when at the high end the most they can win is 20-30 points a fight. That doesn't reward good or dedicated play, it only discourages it.

daveomite

daveomite wrote:

Rajjeq wrote:

I wouldn't be sure it's only pvp. My sons joined the PVE shortly after each other and ended up in two different brackets.

I agree, I think it's everything. The better half and I both started rags at the game time. My bracket with top alliance members, hers with a top score of 433.

Then we both joined the latest Osborn bracket, same thing...completely different brackets.

scratch that... my bracket now has 4 or 5 people over 1k. However, her bracket...All of a sudden today there are 6 people over 1k in it.

so, she and I are definitely in different brackets, but both seem to be pretty heavy.

I have 908 in mine, but shielded for now. Was getting pounced too much. Plus one hit for -47 from someone who had just over 100 points, and the retal was only worth 5. Fortunately, I'm less than 800 points from 10k in Season 1, but it's certainly getting much harder to get there.

daveomite

Mizake wrote:

The latest changes are totally FUBAR. About 4 tournaments ago, things actually reached a perfect balance. I don't remember which tourney it was now, but basically things started out as beating 1*-2* teams up to about 400, then 2*-3* teams up to about 800, and then 3*- 3 141 teams the rest of the way. This was excellent because the challenge increased as you went up, as it should be.

Now it's just complete 3* - 3 141 teams right from the get go.

And let's get one thing right out of the way - every max 141 team can beat every other max 141 team out there, just some take longer than others so you pick and choose based on how many points they are worth and if you decide to skip them because you know them on some level.

This makes PvP unfriendly and frustrating for 2 main reasons now:

1) During your climb, you are beating teams that can all retaliate now. You no longer are doing your early climb through teams that will likely choose to skip you. This means the more you climb, the more likely you are going to be retaliated on since you are worth more points...usually at time you don't want to be retaliated on (high 900-1000 range).

2) People with max rosters that start their climb late will be getting max points and hitting people on their way up...also with max rosters. The MMR range is HUGE now as I was getting hit by people with 900-1000 points below my level. That is not a misprint. This means towards the end players who started earlier will be getting hit for -40 to -50 points, while looking for fights worth +20 to +30.

Also...if the brackets are supposedly so "huge", why do I see the same 4 or 5 people show up time and time again? Someone 1000 points below me can hit me, but somehow I can only see the same 4 or 5 people worth 20 pts to hit?

All these changes are designed to get us to use more HP on shields. You had it perfect about 4 tournaments ago, you should go back and see how you can change things back. I honestly don't mind retals, but the way your point system works I'm never going to retal against someone whose worth 7 pts when they hit me for -45. You need to narrow your MMR range so people even 300 pts below you can't see you, because no one should have to lose 40-50 points a fight when at the high end the most they can win is 20-30 points a fight. That doesn't reward good or dedicated play, it only discourages it.

I agree.

Unknown

miucat wrote:

My speculation is that maybe they just segregated those with no max 2*, pehaps roster level less than 85 and put them into a separate pool for bracketing. Since the majority of their playerbase are probably there, we end up seeing much more concentrated top tier brackets and higher likelihood of getting into a bracket of death. Anyone with an alt account with close to max 2* that could test this out?

Just compared the top ten of the Rags tournament on my two accounts (joined at exactly the same time). Main account with maxed 2* roster is in a bracket with mainly maxed 3* rosters and maxed 2* rosters (top ten points are ranging from 1100 for 1st place to 900 for 10th) and I'm at #244 with 367 pts.
Steam account (roster of lvl 40 1* chars) is in a bracket with 2* rosters and only partly maxed characters or not maxed at all. 2 people with 3* chars over 100 and one or two maxed 2*. Point range is 929-502. There I'm sitting in 36th place with 375 pts.
People around me all have mid level 2* and maxed 1* characters.

Unknown

Shows how much I miss being away from the forum for finals week. Lol
So my brackets have been insane to say the least. This pvp that just finished my score was around 1390. That was good enough for 3rd place. Barely.

I typically join my brackets at the exact same time remaining almost every tourney. The 1 tourney I strayed from that was 1st tourney I got hit by major competition with multiple people over 1300.
Next tourney went back to usual time and that's when the 1400 didn't even get me top 2.
In a hardcore bracket for rags tourney now also.

I been in 1st place by like 1200-1800 points in season 1 so that theory fits me. A couple people in my pvp bracket had similar scores as me also. I think the top 4 were all +/- 1000 points of me in season.

Pve hasn't had the same scaling for me. I've been playing Pve a bit more casually and just trying to maintain top 20 finishes.
People with lower scores than me were having 395's with days left in event. I never seen past 250 even on final days.

TL:DR - fix the ****. Here's some extra info if it helps any of u putting theories together.