Please Nerf cycling

FindingHeart8

I still find this hate for cycling hard to digest.  If it was actually PvP then sure, but the AI boss Bolas doesn't feel overpowered when it uses it's extremely broken ability on the player, why should we feel bad beating an AI?

If marching to the flag of "It's not fair for all players competing," well then you're trying to tackle the element of luck in this game.  Some players (with similar caliber decks) in tournaments will be faced against easier opponents than others.  How is that fair?  Players who got lucky and scored the best-of-the-best cards can generally have a smooth ride to the top.  How is that fair?  Are we going to nerf every card someone points a finger at and cries broken until there's nothing but 2/2 no-ability creatures for 7 mana?   If we refuse to accept luck as the major component that it is in this game, and instead try to be moralistic over what's the current broken card, where are we really going to wind up with this?

My solution was always that winning for real players was more important than an equal-field for the AI, and that shortcuts like cycling come with a huge cost (game-play enjoyment).  I would rather take 2nd place and have enjoyed the game I'm playing, than have taken 1st and had the entire process been a chore.

ShawnP1

I feel if you don't want to play it then don't; and if you don't want to play against it then suck it up there's a lot of 8 to 9 mytic or masterpiece decks I hate fighting, Koth can still be annoying etc. It's a problem but by no means game ruining or completely unreasonable.

ZW2007-

I am completely retracting all previous comments in regards to altering any old cards. After seeing Ixalan, I really dread what will come out of re-balancing older sets.

Gilesclone

@ZW2007-  I hear you!  We may have had different opinions on cycling/Omni/whatever but if they think a 4/6 for 31 is balanced we don’t want them balancing ANYTHING!

Thuran

@FindingHeart8 aren't you just proving the point?

Bolas is the END BOSS if the pve game. 
HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD!

So the argument that: "If it was actually PvP then sure, but the AI boss Bolas doesn't feel overpowered when it uses it's extremely broken ability on the player, why should we feel bad beating an AI?" Simply proves why cycling needs to go. 

The entire encounter is made trivial by cycling, as is any other encounter in the game. Rather than experiment with various decks and overcome a challenge any lazy idiot can cycle their way to an automatic win on the hardest content of the game.

If you are whining that it is too hard, and that we need cycling as a free win button, because the end boss isn't fair, then that is part of not only the problem in the game, but a larger societal problem of entitlement without effort, of wanting to get to the end goal without working for it.

Many games have been dumbed down to cater to a desire for easy wins, why should we want this game to devolve into the same?

Remember events before cycling was a thing? Remember how reaching exclusive rewards was exciting and an accomplishment? Why on earth would we want to get rid of that, and just give away 100% completion as a prize for opening new perspectives, rather than having actual progression that encourages growing our decks, improving them, and banging your head against the end boss until you finally manage to take it down, and then share that accomplishment with your coalition?

Yes, the Bolas fight is broken because it is trivial to beat thanks to a certain design flaw, but any encounter that can ever be created in this game will not offer any challenge and stay trivial content that is easy to beat, as long as cycling exsist.

IF they had made a pve event for ixalan, it would be beaten by most people on the very first attempt, if they just run a cycling deck.

So cycling is not only boring, but outright prevents new content from being enjoyed as it was meant to be.

Did you beat Tezzeret in the first attempt?
Would you have beaten him in the first attempt if cycling had existed?
Should you be able to beat him that easily?

ILikePancakes

Thuran said:

@FindingHeart8 aren't you just proving the point?

Bolas is the END BOSS if the pve game. 
HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD!

So the argument that: "If it was actually PvP then sure, but the AI boss Bolas doesn't feel overpowered when it uses it's extremely broken ability on the player, why should we feel bad beating an AI?" Simply proves why cycling needs to go. 

The entire encounter is made trivial by cycling, as is any other encounter in the game. Rather than experiment with various decks and overcome a challenge any lazy idiot can cycle their way to an automatic win on the hardest content of the game.

If you are whining that it is too hard, and that we need cycling as a free win button, because the end boss isn't fair, then that is part of not only the problem in the game, but a larger societal problem of entitlement without effort, of wanting to get to the end goal without working for it.

Many games have been dumbed down to cater to a desire for easy wins, why should we want this game to devolve into the same?

Remember events before cycling was a thing? Remember how reaching exclusive rewards was exciting and an accomplishment? Why on earth would we want to get rid of that, and just give away 100% completion as a prize for opening new perspectives, rather than having actual progression that encourages growing our decks, improving them, and banging your head against the end boss until you finally manage to take it down, and then share that accomplishment with your coalition?

Yes, the Bolas fight is broken because it is trivial to beat thanks to a certain design flaw, but any encounter that can ever be created in this game will not offer any challenge and stay trivial content that is easy to beat, as long as cycling exsist.

IF they had made a pve event for ixalan, it would be beaten by most people on the very first attempt, if they just run a cycling deck.

So cycling is not only boring, but outright prevents new content from being enjoyed as it was meant to be.

Did you beat Tezzeret in the first attempt?
Would you have beaten him in the first attempt if cycling had existed?
Should you be able to beat him that easily?

Latest deck I made against bolas didn't use cycling, but it was still boring and an "I win" button. Shadows of the past, cruel reality, and whatever that 3 damage to PW support is called (can't remember the name right now). Threw some destory creature cards in and some other ****. Played with original Liliana so I could use her 2nd ability. So there are ways to easily beat bolas that don't require cycling. Saw on another thread that approach of the second sun will do the trick, too.

andrewvanmarle

Did you see the ixalan cardlist? -THAT- is what happens when you continually ask for stuff to be nerfed and stress out the devs with an unattainable idea of balance.

So well done everyone, you got what asked for........  Would you like ketchup to make that 31 mana 4/6 go down easier?

Matthew

andrewvanmarle said:

Did you see the ixalan cardlist? -THAT- is what happens when you continually ask for stuff to be nerfed and stress out the devs with an unattainable idea of balance.

So well done everyone, you got what asked for........  Would you like ketchup to make that 31 mana 4/6 go down easier?

This just comes across as deflecting from the actual problem bothering you, namely, that they've said they have Cycling in their sights for a nerf.

I'm not surprised by the fact that they have brought the power curve down. Hibernum pushed it as close to the asymptote as they could, and it made things unstable through AER. Then they overcorrected with Cycling. So at some point, something like this had to happen.

The problem I have with what they've presented to us is that it seems unpolished, and implies a distinct lack of understanding as to how the game actually functions and how a typical match plays out. It's not quite at the level of a broken clock; they've got enough actually useful cards in here to make me think that their heads are collectively at least thinking about being in the right place. They just haven't gotten to that place yet.

Gideon

Let’s just make the whole game not fun. 

FindingHeart8

Thuran said:

@FindingHeart8 aren't you just proving the point?

Bolas is the END BOSS if the pve game. 
HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD!

So the argument that: "If it was actually PvP then sure, but the AI boss Bolas doesn't feel overpowered when it uses it's extremely broken ability on the player, why should we feel bad beating an AI?" Simply proves why cycling needs to go. 

The entire encounter is made trivial by cycling, as is any other encounter in the game. Rather than experiment with various decks and overcome a challenge any lazy idiot can cycle their way to an automatic win on the hardest content of the game.

If you are whining that it is too hard, and that we need cycling as a free win button, because the end boss isn't fair, then that is part of not only the problem in the game, but a larger societal problem of entitlement without effort, of wanting to get to the end goal without working for it.

Many games have been dumbed down to cater to a desire for easy wins, why should we want this game to devolve into the same?

Remember events before cycling was a thing? Remember how reaching exclusive rewards was exciting and an accomplishment? Why on earth would we want to get rid of that, and just give away 100% completion as a prize for opening new perspectives, rather than having actual progression that encourages growing our decks, improving them, and banging your head against the end boss until you finally manage to take it down, and then share that accomplishment with your coalition?

Yes, the Bolas fight is broken because it is trivial to beat thanks to a certain design flaw, but any encounter that can ever be created in this game will not offer any challenge and stay trivial content that is easy to beat, as long as cycling exsist.

IF they had made a pve event for ixalan, it would be beaten by most people on the very first attempt, if they just run a cycling deck.

So cycling is not only boring, but outright prevents new content from being enjoyed as it was meant to be.

Did you beat Tezzeret in the first attempt?
Would you have beaten him in the first attempt if cycling had existed?
Should you be able to beat him that easily?

I'm not opposed to a high difficulty, but when the general consensus (from previous threads, my coalition, and other coalitions I've talked with) is that Bolas battle was not fun.  I don't mind losing, but if I'm not even enjoying it when I'm winning then there's a problem.

Cycling with Bolas was always a challenge.  It was a race to get your combo out before Bolas activated his Death Star Planet Destroyer on your planeswalker, and getting a 200/200 drake isn't going to win you the game if Bolas just steals it before you can attack.  Which he did...a lot.  So no, cycling did not guarantee you victory with Bolas, not even close.

This is the morality issue I was talking about.  You're implying my position is coming across as entitled because I want an "easy win."  I'd counter that, if entitlement does exist here, it's with players who are saying other players cannot use cycling as it is.  Like I've said before: cycling is not fun, you pay the price by playing it.  I personally do not play cycling, and haven't for months, but I don't think it's my place to dictate what other players can and cannot play.  You don't like cycling, don't play it, but don't try and control what other players can and cannot do...because ultimately, that's what this all boils down to, what other players should and should not be allowed to play.

FindingHeart8

ILikePancakes said:

Thuran said:

@FindingHeart8 aren't you just proving the point?

Bolas is the END BOSS if the pve game. 
HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD!

So the argument that: "If it was actually PvP then sure, but the AI boss Bolas doesn't feel overpowered when it uses it's extremely broken ability on the player, why should we feel bad beating an AI?" Simply proves why cycling needs to go. 

The entire encounter is made trivial by cycling, as is any other encounter in the game. Rather than experiment with various decks and overcome a challenge any lazy idiot can cycle their way to an automatic win on the hardest content of the game.

If you are whining that it is too hard, and that we need cycling as a free win button, because the end boss isn't fair, then that is part of not only the problem in the game, but a larger societal problem of entitlement without effort, of wanting to get to the end goal without working for it.

Many games have been dumbed down to cater to a desire for easy wins, why should we want this game to devolve into the same?

Remember events before cycling was a thing? Remember how reaching exclusive rewards was exciting and an accomplishment? Why on earth would we want to get rid of that, and just give away 100% completion as a prize for opening new perspectives, rather than having actual progression that encourages growing our decks, improving them, and banging your head against the end boss until you finally manage to take it down, and then share that accomplishment with your coalition?

Yes, the Bolas fight is broken because it is trivial to beat thanks to a certain design flaw, but any encounter that can ever be created in this game will not offer any challenge and stay trivial content that is easy to beat, as long as cycling exsist.

IF they had made a pve event for ixalan, it would be beaten by most people on the very first attempt, if they just run a cycling deck.

So cycling is not only boring, but outright prevents new content from being enjoyed as it was meant to be.

Did you beat Tezzeret in the first attempt?
Would you have beaten him in the first attempt if cycling had existed?
Should you be able to beat him that easily?

Latest deck I made against bolas didn't use cycling, but it was still boring and an "I win" button. Shadows of the past, cruel reality, and whatever that 3 damage to PW support is called (can't remember the name right now). Threw some destory creature cards in and some other tinykitty. Played with original Liliana so I could use her 2nd ability. So there are ways to easily beat bolas that don't require cycling. Saw on another thread that approach of the second sun will do the trick, too.

There's a handful of ways, yes.  If you're lucky enough to get the right rares or mythics...

ILikePancakes

FindingHeart8 said:

ILikePancakes said:

Thuran said:

@FindingHeart8 aren't you just proving the point?

Bolas is the END BOSS if the pve game. 
HE IS SUPPOSED TO BE HARD!

So the argument that: "If it was actually PvP then sure, but the AI boss Bolas doesn't feel overpowered when it uses it's extremely broken ability on the player, why should we feel bad beating an AI?" Simply proves why cycling needs to go. 

The entire encounter is made trivial by cycling, as is any other encounter in the game. Rather than experiment with various decks and overcome a challenge any lazy idiot can cycle their way to an automatic win on the hardest content of the game.

If you are whining that it is too hard, and that we need cycling as a free win button, because the end boss isn't fair, then that is part of not only the problem in the game, but a larger societal problem of entitlement without effort, of wanting to get to the end goal without working for it.

Many games have been dumbed down to cater to a desire for easy wins, why should we want this game to devolve into the same?

Remember events before cycling was a thing? Remember how reaching exclusive rewards was exciting and an accomplishment? Why on earth would we want to get rid of that, and just give away 100% completion as a prize for opening new perspectives, rather than having actual progression that encourages growing our decks, improving them, and banging your head against the end boss until you finally manage to take it down, and then share that accomplishment with your coalition?

Yes, the Bolas fight is broken because it is trivial to beat thanks to a certain design flaw, but any encounter that can ever be created in this game will not offer any challenge and stay trivial content that is easy to beat, as long as cycling exsist.

IF they had made a pve event for ixalan, it would be beaten by most people on the very first attempt, if they just run a cycling deck.

So cycling is not only boring, but outright prevents new content from being enjoyed as it was meant to be.

Did you beat Tezzeret in the first attempt?
Would you have beaten him in the first attempt if cycling had existed?
Should you be able to beat him that easily?

Latest deck I made against bolas didn't use cycling, but it was still boring and an "I win" button. Shadows of the past, cruel reality, and whatever that 3 damage to PW support is called (can't remember the name right now). Threw some destory creature cards in and some other tinykitty. Played with original Liliana so I could use her 2nd ability. So there are ways to easily beat bolas that don't require cycling. Saw on another thread that approach of the second sun will do the trick, too.

There's a handful of ways, yes.  If you're lucky enough to get the right rares or mythics...

Yup. Otherwise I can't figure out how to beat him. I would like to play a creature deck against him, but don't see how I'd survive. I do find it interesting that people are upset about using cycling against bolas but not the other tricks. It's not like what I put together involves any kind of high-minded strategy--I put it on par with using cycling. 

andrewvanmarle

Matthew said:

andrewvanmarle said:

Did you see the ixalan cardlist? -THAT- is what happens when you continually ask for stuff to be nerfed and stress out the devs with an unattainable idea of balance.

So well done everyone, you got what asked for........  Would you like ketchup to make that 31 mana 4/6 go down easier?

This just comes across as deflecting from the actual problem bothering you, namely, that they've said they have Cycling in their sights for a nerf.

I'm not surprised by the fact that they have brought the power curve down. Hibernum pushed it as close to the asymptote as they could, and it made things unstable through AER. Then they overcorrected with Cycling. So at some point, something like this had to happen.

The problem I have with what they've presented to us is that it seems unpolished, and implies a distinct lack of understanding as to how the game actually functions and how a typical match plays out. It's not quite at the level of a broken clock; they've got enough actually useful cards in here to make me think that their heads are collectively at least thinking about being in the right place. They just haven't gotten to that place yet.

Sorry to burst your bubble, my problem is that in games like this one devs tend to overreact if there is a group calling for nerfs everyday. I really dont care about cycling one way or the other, and yes it could do with a look but not in the way people are advocating here.

Managing game balance requires a very subtle, precise and delicate touch. People here have been advocating to balance the game with the equivalent of dynamite.

So what happened? The devs did just that and designed the next set with nerf-dynamite in mind.
(Dev A: "So this 3/3 dynosaur, does 10 mana sound right? Dev B: "no way weren't you at last weeks meeting? just increase the mana cost by ten for everything, just to be safe")

So, no not deflecting, just letting every nerf caller out there know that ixalan is exactly what they have been crying for.

ZW2007-

Bolas is just a stupid fight. You could beat him with C1 by just matching gems and doing nothing all game besides using her loyalty to ping him. It would take forever but if you don't cast a creature, his hand will eventually fill up and he'll do nothing the rest of the game.

Can we just put this to rest? Claiming this thread resulted in the dumpster fire that is Ixalan is just ridiculous. They obviously made a conscious decision to lower the power level but they made a lot of rookie mistakes. Other threads have already pointed out how some of the cards were transplanted directly from paper and just had their mana costs raised. The devs stated long ago they wanted to align more with paper magic. That design philosophy is fine but you can't align exactly with paper. Player life totals are vastly different, mana functionality is vastly different, land cards... you get the point. Some things can mimic paper exactly but they need to have values adjusted to fit this game. Other cards do not translate to this format at all and should have been completely redesigned or simply omitted.

If anything, I'd say the devs were more afraid of making another Omniscience than they were of making another cycling. I will enjoy casting my 31 mana 4/6 vehicle for free with my Omni until that too gets turned into a steaming pile.

khurram

FindingHeart8 said:

Cycling with Bolas was always a challenge.  It was a race to get your combo out before Bolas activated his Death Star Planet Destroyer on your planeswalker, and getting a 200/200 drake isn't going to win you the game if Bolas just steals it before you can attack.  Which he did...a lot.  So no, cycling did not guarantee you victory with Bolas, not even close.

There is a card, its called Faith of the Devoted. Also there is a planeswalker named Ob Nixilis, Reignited 

FindingHeart8

khurram said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Cycling with Bolas was always a challenge.  It was a race to get your combo out before Bolas activated his Death Star Planet Destroyer on your planeswalker, and getting a 200/200 drake isn't going to win you the game if Bolas just steals it before you can attack.  Which he did...a lot.  So no, cycling did not guarantee you victory with Bolas, not even close.

There is a card, its called Faith of the Devoted. Also there is a planeswalker named Ob Nixilis, Reignited 

Ah, so you want to do make 150 swaps everytime you fight Bolas? (~100 required swaps necessary for the damage plus swapping out the extra New Perspectives and Faith of the Devoted/Drake Havens you draw to clear your hand for new cards).  Be my guest to that 30 minutes of bored misery you're subjecting yourself to...but hey, you're gonna have really buff fingers

babar3355

FindingHeart8 said:

khurram said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Cycling with Bolas was always a challenge.  It was a race to get your combo out before Bolas activated his Death Star Planet Destroyer on your planeswalker, and getting a 200/200 drake isn't going to win you the game if Bolas just steals it before you can attack.  Which he did...a lot.  So no, cycling did not guarantee you victory with Bolas, not even close.

There is a card, its called Faith of the Devoted. Also there is a planeswalker named Ob Nixilis, Reignited 

Ah, so you want to do make 150 swaps everytime you fight Bolas? (~100 required swaps necessary for the damage plus swapping out the extra New Perspectives and Faith of the Devoted/Drake Havens you draw to clear your hand for new cards).  Be my guest to that 30 minutes of bored misery you're subjecting yourself to...but hey, you're gonna have really buff fingers

It takes less than 5 mins to beat Bolas with Ob cycling deck... really not that bad

FindingHeart8

ZW2007- said:

Bolas is just a stupid fight. You could beat him with C1 by just matching gems and doing nothing all game besides using her loyalty to ping him. It would take forever but if you don't cast a creature, his hand will eventually fill up and he'll do nothing the rest of the game.

Can we just put this to rest? Claiming this thread resulted in the dumpster fire that is Ixalan is just ridiculous. They obviously made a conscious decision to lower the power level but they made a lot of rookie mistakes. Other threads have already pointed out how some of the cards were transplanted directly from paper and just had their mana costs raised. The devs stated long ago they wanted to align more with paper magic. That design philosophy is fine but you can't align exactly with paper. Player life totals are vastly different, mana functionality is vastly different, land cards... you get the point. Some things can mimic paper exactly but they need to have values adjusted to fit this game. Other cards do not translate to this format at all and should have been completely redesigned or simply omitted.

If anything, I'd say the devs were more afraid of making another Omniscience than they were of making another cycling. I will enjoy casting my 31 mana 4/6 vehicle for free with my Omni until that too gets turned into a steaming pile.

You're bluffing.  Even with Omni you're not gonna put that 4/6 vehicle in your deck past it's mastery and you know it

ZW2007-

Honestly I just want to see if the 31 mana cost breaks stuff like Omni and Dark Ritual.

khurram

FindingHeart8 said:

khurram said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Cycling with Bolas was always a challenge.  It was a race to get your combo out before Bolas activated his Death Star Planet Destroyer on your planeswalker, and getting a 200/200 drake isn't going to win you the game if Bolas just steals it before you can attack.  Which he did...a lot.  So no, cycling did not guarantee you victory with Bolas, not even close.

There is a card, its called Faith of the Devoted. Also there is a planeswalker named Ob Nixilis, Reignited 

Ah, so you want to do make 150 swaps everytime you fight Bolas? (~100 required swaps necessary for the damage plus swapping out the extra New Perspectives and Faith of the Devoted/Drake Havens you draw to clear your hand for new cards).  Be my guest to that 30 minutes of bored misery you're subjecting yourself to...but hey, you're gonna have really buff fingers

Are you familiar with Ob's ultimate?