Please Nerf cycling

Matthew

Well, my point was more along the lines of "Thank God someone with actual authority over the direction of this game has come out and said it's broken and therefore needs and will be getting a nerf. Maybe this will make its supporters understand how misguided they are."

I don't think Doom needs a nerf. I think it's other cards that make Doom a problem.

You're dead-on about HUF though. That card is pretty ridonkulous. Mostly it's just in combination with Deploy, but I have also seen other ways to abuse it.

Gilesclone

Doom seems to require other powerful cards to break.  HUF is broke out of the box.

Mainloop25

A Doom loop requires much more setup. Maybe not if we ever got a blue/green/red walker, and can easily fizzle out or get broken up with a little bit of bad luck. Actually my most effective Doom loop deck uses that other broken card HUF. 

FindingHeart8

Thuran said:

Yes, the verdict is out: cycling is getting the axe, and so is omniscience, but not until rivals.

Wonder if imminent doom will be the next big complaint, and ofc HUF needs a nerf too

This is what I'm worried about.  There will always be cards people are complaining are "overpowered."  How far is Octagon going to go with this?  Is this a one-time thing, or a reoccurring thing if a handful of players get loud enough on the forums?

My take is, they should just make cycling and Omni legacy and call it a day.  I was supportive of a -slight- nerf to Omni just so it doesn't loop to victory, but not at the risk of a nerf-domino effect.

khurram

FindingHeart8 said:

Thuran said:

Yes, the verdict is out: cycling is getting the axe, and so is omniscience, but not until rivals.

Wonder if imminent doom will be the next big complaint, and ofc HUF needs a nerf too

This is what I'm worried about.  There will always be cards people are complaining are "overpowered."  How far is Octagon going to go with this?  Is this a one-time thing, or a reoccurring thing if a handful of players get loud enough on the forums?

My take is, they should just make cycling and Omni legacy and call it a day.  I was supportive of a -slight- nerf to Omni just so it doesn't loop to victory, but not at the risk of a nerf-domino effect.

Nerf-domino seems a likely scenario. They're gonna feed the OP cards to "Gishath's sharp teeth". Which will be ironic if Gishath turns out to be underwhelming like most of the spoiled Ixalan cards. 

Kardynal

FindingHeart8 said:

Thuran said:

Yes, the verdict is out: cycling is getting the axe, and so is omniscience, but not until rivals.

Wonder if imminent doom will be the next big complaint, and ofc HUF needs a nerf too

This is what I'm worried about.  There will always be cards people are complaining are "overpowered."  How far is Octagon going to go with this?  Is this a one-time thing, or a reoccurring thing if a handful of players get loud enough on the forums?

You could say the same thing about paper MTG and the DCI. And people do, all the time. Paper has lasted 25 years, tho.

FindingHeart8

Kardynal said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Thuran said:

Yes, the verdict is out: cycling is getting the axe, and so is omniscience, but not until rivals.

Wonder if imminent doom will be the next big complaint, and ofc HUF needs a nerf too

This is what I'm worried about.  There will always be cards people are complaining are "overpowered."  How far is Octagon going to go with this?  Is this a one-time thing, or a reoccurring thing if a handful of players get loud enough on the forums?

You could say the same thing about paper MTG and the DCI. And people do, all the time. Paper has lasted 25 years, tho.

I know how long paper has lasted, I've been playing most of it.

Octagon pays more attention to what we say than Wizards does with the millions of mtg card players.  Some of the players here have almost been quoted directly on the player interactions on the Ixalan blog.

And you could still play casually in mtg with old rulings (ex: I know groups who still play with mana burn and the old legendary rulings).  You don't have that option on mtgpq

khurram

FindingHeart8 said:

Kardynal said:

FindingHeart8 said:

Thuran said:

Yes, the verdict is out: cycling is getting the axe, and so is omniscience, but not until rivals.

Wonder if imminent doom will be the next big complaint, and ofc HUF needs a nerf too

This is what I'm worried about.  There will always be cards people are complaining are "overpowered."  How far is Octagon going to go with this?  Is this a one-time thing, or a reoccurring thing if a handful of players get loud enough on the forums?

You could say the same thing about paper MTG and the DCI. And people do, all the time. Paper has lasted 25 years, tho.

Octagon pays more attention to what we say than Wizards does with the millions of mtg card players.  Some of the players here have almost been quoted directly on the player interactions on the Ixalan blog.

They quoted the players or you know, maybe they studied the problems themselves and simply stated what made the most sense about the current dominant strategies in standard and the resulting player/AI interactions.

PS: Doesn't seem like Kardynal was challenging your experience playing paper magic. 

FindingHeart8

The mods have said in multiple threads that the developers look over conversations on the forums.  That being said, I'm sure they've put a lot of thought into this separately.

Yah, sorry for the grumblings.  It's a pet peeve of mine when someone uses the mere longevity of mtg as a defense for the legitimacy of its practices.  The developers of MtG have screwed up, a lot, over the years...and have publicly admitted it on many occasions (props to them for owning up to it), their success has not just been on making a captivating game with interesting rules, but on the corporate mergings, effecting marketing campaigns, right place right time scenarios, etc.  I had a friend who worked for them for a while, gave me a bit of the inside scoop

ZW2007-

Honestly, I'm sure (and I really hope) that they have tons and tons of data on card usage etc. to make these decisions. If they are seeing that every player that owns NP and DH are using NP and DH at least x amount of the time, that is their way of determining if it is over-represented in the meta. Typically if something is over-represented, it's because it is the dominant strategy and that is what leads to bans. In PQ they don't need to ban stuff because they can just change the way it works and let people still use the cards. Just my final 2¢ on the topic.

FindingHeart8

@ZW2007- Yeah I hope that's how it came about.  I'd feel a little better about cycling being nerfed if I knew tons of people were abusing it, who had other competitive options.  At least we can finally put these topics to rest and talk about other things.

khurram

I actually know a fellow player who has had Omni since November and has also been able to craft cards like Olivia and deploy but refuses to use any of them in events where he can use cycling instead. 

Mainloop25

khurram said:

I actually know a fellow player who has had Omni since November and has also been able to craft cards like Olivia and deploy but refuses to use any of them in events where he can use cycling instead. 

How has he not quit the game out of sheer boredom?

bk1234

Mainloop25 said:

khurram said:

I actually know a fellow player who has had Omni since November and has also been able to craft cards like Olivia and deploy but refuses to use any of them in events where he can use cycling instead. 

How has he not quit the game out of sheer boredom?

I've had Omni since August and NP / DH very early in AKH and don't use any of them in competitive play -- because they are all boring. 

Mainloop25

bken1234 said:

Mainloop25 said:

khurram said:

I actually know a fellow player who has had Omni since November and has also been able to craft cards like Olivia and deploy but refuses to use any of them in events where he can use cycling instead. 

How has he not quit the game out of sheer boredom?

I've had Omni since August and NP / DH very early in AKH and don't use any of them in competitive play -- because they are all boring. 

Omni becomes a fun mini game of how quickly can I win, but i hear you. 

ShawnP1

I don't see why a nerf is necessary. It's not like 80% of the player base is miserable because of it, just because a small percentage of players don't care for it. Got to love Democracy

Kinesia

ShawnP1 said:

I don't see why a nerf is necessary. It's not like 80% of the player base is miserable because of it, just because a small percentage of players don't care for it. Got to love Democracy

Except they might be, we don't know... We miserable few on the forums are the _minority_ of players. We also don't know if people _left_ because of the more annoying cards because we don't have any "Why did you leave?" surveys, they just disappear.

Cycling matters to the people who don't play it because we still have to play _against_ it but it's not interesting gameplay, we might win more, sure, but many of us want interesting games not an "I win" button. So Cycling taints the game for people who play against it.

The people playing it, that rely on it, it's not going to be around longterm so it's _far_ better for the Devs to prepare people and wean them off it rather than have it eventually just go away and people ragequit because they've lost _their_ i win button.

Actually, despite the assymetry, Cycling is an "I win" button for the people playing it _and_ against it, but that power poisons each side in slightly different ways. Long term it's just a bad feeling to have in the game.


(And New Perspectives is so broken that I use it even though I don't Cycle because in terms of card draw + mana it's still an excellent option! It's not meant to enable NON-CYCLING decks like it does, it is so very broken in terms of basic intent. I want cards to match the _intent_ of paper and Oktagon talking about the way they are bringing over mechanics gives me hope about that for the future.)

Gilesclone

This is another example (like booster crafting) of a game change that widens the gap between the top tier players and everyone else. The top players already own almost all the cards, they can build broken 5, 6, 9 mythic decks.  
Next I anticipate a campaign to replace small pool events with big pool events like HoD where the top players get 400 jewels and everyone else gets 10 or a handful of runes for their efforts.

Gunmix25

Gilesclone said:

This is another example (like booster crafting) Of a game change that widens the gap between the top tier players and everyone else. The top players already own almost all the cards, they can build broken 5, 6, 9 mythic decks.  
Next I anticipate a campaign to replace small pool events with big pool events like HoD where the top players get 400 jewels and everyone else gets 10 or a handful of runes for their efforts.

In terms of now, yes.  You're correct. And really there was no way around it except by resetting everyone to zero dupes... this forum would likely be a ghost town if they had done so.  

 In the long term no, the gap becomes less significant in the long term as aets are being rotated out. 

I don't anticipate such events being the norm.  Quite a few players,  myself included,  Have complained about the huge pool events. But for now they're Standard. Not legacy.  

HelloKitty

I'm guilty of cycling. I crafted my brains out to get New Perspectives. Yes, I rarely lose a match. I just finished Gold Tier Nodes of Power in first place. 

I agree that the mechanic is broken. Especially on the AI side. What if our event scores reflected our deck performance in the hands of the AI as well as our own? Then the "sure win" would be balanced by a "sure loss".