Please Nerf cycling

Doomstat

Okay, I have no comment on this except this:
Yesterday I was playing TG with my Nahiri. I ran into Greg using someone's B/G Nissa, so of course I think cycling. Kinda sad about the auto win, I change to my HUF/Second Sun Nahiri to speed through the process... boy was I wrong.

The cards I remember:
Creatures:
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
Niblis of Frost

Support:
AetherFlux Reservoir

Spells:
Hour of Promise
Nissa's Revelation
Rishkar's Expertise
Harvest Season
Beneath the Sands
Desert of the Indomitable

And I forget the last card. I want to say it was Reason/Believe, but not important.

So I start off strong, Hazoret's Favor followed by Solemn Recruit. They match, end turn. My turn, Stewart of Solidarity. Their turn, Rashmi. Pull HUF, begin building mana to play it. They're turn, cascade into Nissa's Revelation, Beneath. Then they keep going. Hour, Niblis, Desert, Rishkar's, etc.

I'm thinking to myself, trying to figure out their kill... what could it be? 20 cards later, AetherFlux hits the board. 8 minutes later, I lose. No chance to stop it... No Omni, not cycling, not HUF/Deploy. A bunch of the best gem changers, draw and AetherFlux Reservoir. All but Niblis is standard, and Niblis is not needed.

They don't need to nerf anything. Bad beats happen, no matter the cards in the deck. Just move to the next match and hope it goes better.

Much love, 
Doomstat

khurram

hawkyh1 said:

I never said it always loops. notice how I always say that
if omni loops then... 

sigh
Alright

hawkyh1 said:

support destruction assumes you have a chance to play
after your opponent plays omni.

You are saying here that you dont have a chance to play after omniscience is cast. There is one way you dont even get a chance to cast a cheap spell like demolish or dissenter's deliverance or removal for the creatures that Greg has managed to get on board... that is if the game ended before you could get your turn. Your statement here implies that omniscience starts looping the moment it is played. Therefore by saying the above you implied that omniscience always loops.

hawkyh1 said:

... what a great argument to a broken card.
it's not always broken. sww error, don't worry it doesn't
always have sww errors.

I however never said that omniscience was not OP or broken. Let me lay out for you the points I was trying to bring to attention, since you seem determined to ignore them

1- When people are hellbent on getting a broken card nerfed but at the same time content to have another equally broken mechanic in the game and going so far as to even defend the said broken mechanic, that is hypocrisy.

2- Omniscience is beyond powerful, yes. The accounts of how it is destroying everyone in matches are however, greatly exaggerated. The 10 minutes loops, people having to quit when they face it.... people are assuming what would happen and then they throw that in the argument even if they themselves did not face a "10 minute loop" to make their point seem valid. People do lose to omniscience on occasion, as they lose to any other powerful deck strategies out there. 

(yes, i did say that cycling is equally broken if not more. If anyone's got anymore arguments about how absolutely vulnerable the drakes are to "unsummon" and "gideon's defeat" and how solemnity and support destruction ruins it and you have to set it up first...... by casting the cheapest supports that you can save extra copies of, in hand anyway, mind you. I have already made my points quite clear.) 

hawkyh1 said:

'(rest of the decklist I am still waiting on btw)'
I might not have been very clear, it's not my deck.

Really?  My apologies. 
But then...  

hawkyh1 said:

it is not theory. omni, deploy, whir, heartebeast can create a
looping deck. the victory condition is approach. blue has
never had problems with draw cards. you shouldn't be so
quick to discredit other players experiences just because
you have never experienced it yourself. also it doesn't need
to create an infinite loop, just loop enough approaches to
win.

You did say it wasnt a theory and seemed so very confident and sure of how it would work, I made the mistake of assuming that you had tested it yourself and were speaking from firsthand experience.

Its a shame; I would've loved the decklist for omni, delpoy, whir, hartebeast deck with Approach as a win-con, which was not a setup at all, but still could manage to loop the opponent to death.

Houdin

khurram 
Its a shame; I would've loved the decklist for omni, delpoy, whir, hartebeast deck with Approach as a win-con, which was not a setup at all, but still could manage to loop the opponent to death.

I'm sorry but this = win

ZW2007-

1. Overwhelming Splendor seems to have been shrugged off as stopping the first Whir/Omni and then doing nothing? Umm, have you played OS against an Omni deck or own Omni and played against an OS? It absolutely 100% shuts down any looping potential of Omni. Omni makes the card free then Overwhelming Splendor makes the card cost 6 more. All cards would cost 6 mana and no loop ever happens. Same goes for quarantine field (sort of, QF won't effect Whir and other spells but it will make creatures and Omni cost 12 more after being "free"). Combine the two and you won't lose.

2. Omni absolutely requires a setup. You need card draw, support fetch, a haste or direct damage kill condition, etc.  You also need to get those in your hand, at the right time, in the right order. Remember, once Omni starts looping, you can't reorganize your hand to prevent it from fizzling. Infinite loops can happen but more often than not they don't happen. Especially in the hands of the AI.

3. They are both broken in different ways. That doesn't mean they aren't broken. Goggles + HUF + Approach is broken. Goggles + HUF + deploy is broken (or just HUF + Deploy). Rashmi is broken. Pull from Tomorrow is broken. They all could use a fix but at the same time they are all fine. There are answers to all of these. Try playing Avaricious Dragon, it will blow up Omniscience faster than the AI can kill you and an Omni deck with infinite loop potential likely will not have the removal to stop it.

hawkyh1

'1- When people are hellbent on getting a broken card nerfed but at the same time content to have another equally broken mechanic in the game and going so far as to even defend the said broken mechanic, that is hypocrisy.'

it's not about balancing all cards. it about the probability
of it happening in practice. if someone said if you nerf
omni then you should also nerf huf. a lot of players can
see the logic in that and maybe both will get nerfed.
problem is players are saying if you nerf omni then
cycling should also be nerfed. in theory there is nothing
wrong in the logic. in practice cycling is a mechanic that
affects many cards, may or may not be completely stable
as it stands and should be a much larger undertaking to
balance. there are many pages on the forum discussing
cycling and also threads on it's bugs. you are not
comparing like for like. I get the impression that players
who don't want omni to not loop use cycling as a defence
knowing that balancing cycling is not likely to happen soon,
if ever. they could have chosen any other reasonable
comparison yet they choose not to.

(imo omni is not a mechanic, it is a single card)

HH

ZW2007-

hawkyh1 said:

'1- When people are hellbent on getting a broken card nerfed but at the same time content to have another equally broken mechanic in the game and going so far as to even defend the said broken mechanic, that is hypocrisy.'

it's not about balancing all cards. it about the probability
of it happening in practice. if someone said if you nerf
omni then you should also nerf huf. a lot of players can
see the logic in that and maybe both will get nerfed.
problem is players are saying if you nerf omni then
cycling should also be nerfed. in theory there is nothing
wrong in the logic. in practice cycling is a mechanic that
affects many cards, may or may not be completely stable
as it stands and should be a much larger undertaking to
balance. there are many pages on the forum discussing
cycling and also threads on it's bugs. you are not
comparing like for like. I get the impression that players
who don't want omni to not loop use cycling as a defence
knowing that balancing cycling is not likely to happen soon,
if ever. they could have chosen any other reasonable
comparison yet they choose not to.

(imo omni is not a mechanic, it is a single card)

HH

I actually agree with you and I think you are getting stuck on semantics. Maybe I'm wrong but I believe when people are saying cycling needs nerfed, they very specifically mean New Perspectives and Drake Haven (and Faith). At least that's what I mean when I say it. Free mana/card draw is a problem. Cycling on its own is fine but with New Perspectives it becomes a problem. If NP gave 2 mana to each card with cycling, and DH and Faith both drained 1 to trigger their effect, you would have a much less broken, but still incredibly strong strategy. Free card draw is also the problem with Omni. Rashmi enables Omni to loop for free. There are other cards that work with Omni but Rashmi is obviously the worst offender and she has the same effect in other decks without Omni. In the end, I think everything should be left alone and there should be more answers to these problem cards added in XLN.

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

To get stuck against an Omni loop is extremely rare but it has happened to me, and I have been told I've made it happen to a bunch of people. 

Guess it's not so rare then, is it?

Mainloop25

How rare is rare i guess is the question.

Martin

Doomstat said:

Okay, I have no comment on this except this:
Yesterday I was playing TG with my Nahiri. 

Does anybody think that Nahiri beatdown is a Tier 1 deck? I don't think that's a very prevalent belief.

FindingHeart8

Mainloop25 said:

How rare is rare i guess is the question.

it sounds like you've had some good fortune!

For a while for me it was almost a 50/50 every time I faced a Kiora or Dovin deck.  Half the time it'd be something different, half would be Omni combos.  I can confidently, and unfortunately, say at this point I've faced 50+ Omni decks (some may be from same opponents, I didn't keep track of names).  I'm salty enough about it now to the point where I avoid events like Green/Blue ToTP and now it's more of an occasional thing.  If my opponent starts the loop and it's lasted over a minute I'll just quit.  Not worth the wait.

But as I've said before, I don't want Omni nerfed to the point where it still isn't a powerful and appealing card to play, just want to remove the lengthy combo effect.

Mainloop25

Fair enough if you're  seeing them a lot in TOTP. People who play Totp will have Omniscience more often because they collect more jewels than the average player, and had more of chance to pull it in an elite pack. Also, the pool of players you get matched up against is way smaller so you might get matched against the same people running omni loop decks over and over. 

ZW2007-

I think that is an important distinction to this debate. Where are you running into vicious Omni loop decks? Is it in TotP where a loss isn't the end of the world, TG where a loss is meaningless, or a coalition level event? That also begs the question, where do you think people are mostly using cycling decks as win conditions? To me, the coalition events are the most important of the three and I also think those are the events where you are least likely to encounter Omni loop decks ruining your day. In contrast, I think those same coalition events are where you are more likely to run into an easy cycling deck or use one yourself.

FindingHeart8

ZW2007- said:

I think that is an important distinction to this debate. Where are you running into vicious Omni loop decks? Is it in TotP where a loss isn't the end of the world, TG where a loss is meaningless, or a coalition level event? That also begs the question, where do you think people are mostly using cycling decks as win conditions? To me, the coalition events are the most important of the three and I also think those are the events where you are least likely to encounter Omni loop decks ruining your day. In contrast, I think those same coalition events are where you are more likely to run into an easy cycling deck or use one yourself.

TotP is on par for me with coalition events.  Coalition events (generally) have a longer time frame, don't cost crystals to participate, and aren't entirely dependent on you for your coalition score.

I hate facing Omni loop decks, I hate even more having paid 60 crystals to be jipped an opportunity at rewards like earning 30 back because Omni loop decks, all the while having to spend an additional 10+ minutes per battle waiting (for what will likely be my defeat anyways as they combo out) that I could have spent elsewhere.

hawkyh1

ZW2007- said:

I think that is an important distinction to this debate. Where are you running into vicious Omni loop decks? Is it in TotP where a loss isn't the end of the world, TG where a loss is meaningless, or a coalition level event? That also begs the question, where do you think people are mostly using cycling decks as win conditions? To me, the coalition events are the most important of the three and I also think those are the events where you are least likely to encounter Omni loop decks ruining your day. In contrast, I think those same coalition events are where you are more likely to run into an easy cycling deck or use one yourself.

theoretically a player can win in totp, get jewels, then
get lucky and pull omni. now they can play omni loop
decks in the hope of making roi in totp worse for other
players to deter them from getting jewels and thus
limiting their chances of pulling omni?
cycling decks for many are taxing each and every time
players use them. does the increase in grind at least
partly justify the higher rewards obtained?

HH

Houdin

So just as an aside.
I counted omni decks vs cycling decks in the the latest HOR .

Omni decks 1
Cycling decks 11.

That really is a bend in the meta.

I've never said omni shouldn't be adjusted, it really should bit not by a whole bunch as it is a masterpiece card.

My only point is that it is completely hypocritical to demand a single card be nerfed for vending the meta and at the same time defending an entire mechanic because you like you use it to win.

Gideon

Tastes great!!!
Less filling!!!
Just play the game and have fun. No one cares if the AI plays cycling. I’ve only played against 1 Omni deck ever and I lost. I don’t care because I have fun. Everyone should go nerf themselves.

FindingHeart8

Houdin said:

So just as an aside.
I counted omni decks vs cycling decks in the the latest HOR .

Omni decks 1
Cycling decks 11.

That really is a bend in the meta.

I've never said omni shouldn't be adjusted, it really should bit not by a whole bunch as it is a masterpiece card.

My only point is that it is completely hypocritical to demand a single card be nerfed for vending the meta and at the same time defending an entire mechanic because you like you use it to win.

It's not hypocritical, there are solid, significant differences between omni and cycling; honestly, I thought comparing them in the first place was a stretch.

hawkyh1

Houdin said:

So just as an aside.
I counted omni decks vs cycling decks in the the latest HOR .

Omni decks 1
Cycling decks 11.

That really is a bend in the meta.

I've never said omni shouldn't be adjusted, it really should bit not by a whole bunch as it is a masterpiece card.

My only point is that it is completely hypocritical to demand a single card be nerfed for vending the meta and at the same time defending an entire mechanic because you like you use it to win.

as it stands you can play against omni if it doesn't loop.
so if a nerf comes in the form that it can't loop then all
omni games will be playable. 17 mana for 3 cards should
still be playable as was originally intended.

(imo your data does not take into account that cards with
cycling is much more abundant than omni. only np and
dh together with other cycling cards are broken. I rarely
see that. I usually see np + desert of the mindful used to
fuel other cards(sometimes non cycling). it's just a really
good value combo and the way hor nodes are designed
you'll be at a disadvantage to others players who would
be using it. cast x supports, cast x spells, enraged.)


HH

Matthew

So can we put this one to bed now? Cycling needs a nerf. Oktagon agrees with us. And I'd like to point out that their philosophy behind card design and steering the metagame seem to be quite in line with that of the designers of paper magic. And lets face it, this version of Cycling would likely never have made it to even the play-testing phase in the paper game.

And if Wizards would nerf this version of Cycling, then I think it's safe to say that it needs a freakin' nerf.

Thuran

Yes, the verdict is out: cycling is getting the axe, and so is omniscience, but not until rivals.

Wonder if imminent doom will be the next big complaint, and ofc HUF needs a nerf too