Infinity Season *Updated (9/19/17)

12467…16

Comments

  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    This is irritating. I'm all for more players getting involved and feeling comfortable with playing PVP, but this is still screwing over the savvy, more experienced players that know how to get to 900 ish points in 20 wins or less. Our MMR doesn't allow us to just "club away" at seal teams,so those 30+ wins are still going to have to come against some teams that are pretty damn tough. Most likely boosted 4-star champs. Once you score enough points you are only able to q people with similar levels of points, and once you get above 500, that tends to be mostly 4-stars.

    I really wish all you people who are raving so hard about how great it is to have to push for 30-something wins could experience what that's truly like when you run out of 3-star rosters to pick on after the 5th match. Lower this required win total, or introduce a hybrid system, and you will make a lot of people happy. 
  • alaeth
    alaeth Posts: 446 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2017
    Hmm... Math time!!!

    Current season requirements for full progression is 10k points.  Removing 2k for simulation, that's 8000/10 = 800 per event.


    This new format, no Simulation... so Developers are equating 67 wins across 2 events, which equals ~33 wins as equivalent to 800 points...
     
    800/33 = ~24pts per win

    Developers assume players attack 24pt matches. (giggle)


    Honest question: do any developers actually have 5* Champions? 4* Champions?  Do the people that make these decisions actually play the game they're coding these limits for?

    I cannot remember when I have _ever_ hit as 24 pt match - outside lightning rounds.



    I feel sorry for all the 1, 2, 3, and 4* rosters that are going to be beat to hell by 5* players just racking up wins. How is that a fun experience for those people? 
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    @alaeth
    Your math is bad.  You completely ignored loss points.  From what I can tell the main issue they are trying to fix here is the longstanding and frequent complaint about lost points and/or the need to buy a bazillion shields to succeed a PvP.  Not a problem for those vets who are used to it, major problem for many new players.  It's time for a change and I for one welcome our new win based overlords.
  • irwando
    irwando Posts: 263 Mover and Shaker
    shardwick said:
    20 wins to 900? My average fight only gives me about 30 points for a win so 20 wins would get me my 10 cp with a handful of points left over. 
    Most of us who regularly hit 900 don't take a match less than 45 points or so unless we have to.  Never less than 40 unless it is the last match I need to push me over 900.

    Assuming 40 points a match you hit 900 after 23 matches.  
  • Lucifier
    Lucifier Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    alaeth said:
    alaeth said:
    Hmm... Math time!!!

    Current season requirements for full progression is 10k points.  Removing 2k for simulation, that's 8000/10 = 800 per event.


    This new format, no Simulation... so Developers are equating 67 wins across 2 events, which equals ~33 wins as equivalent to 800 points...
     
    800/33 = ~24pts per win

    Developers assume players attack 24pt matches. (giggle)


    Honest question: do any developers actually have 5* Champions? 4* Champions?  Do the people that make these decisions actually play the game they're coding these limits for?

    I cannot remember when I have _ever_ hit as 24 pt match - outside lightning rounds.



    I feel sorry for all the 1, 2, 3, and 4* rosters that are going to be beat to hell by 5* players just racking up wins. How is that a fun experience for those people? 

    i am not even in 4* land, so i can not understand how 4*/5* players feels about the win system.

    but i just want to add this, in the current system do not forget that you may lose points when you get attacked and you lose.
    so it is not  =~24pts per win.

    in my humble opinion, the win base system have some advantage:
    1. your progression never go down, only up.
    2. there is no stress about thinking you may get attacked while you are not shielded (hoping or not).
    3. there is no need to spend HP for shielding (if the target is only progression rewards) unless seeking better placement.
    4. relax play style, can play 5 matches now, later 7 matches, i think there is enough time during the whole event to get the 33 wins.
    sure there are some disadvantage:
    1. as some players PVP play style, they join the PVP in the last 2 hours (or 1 hour and a half, or less) to get small bracket (for better placements), they may not have enough time to reach same progression rewards in the new system, as they was able before in the old system (with the 1 or 2 hour window).
    2. clearly the vet players prefer the current system over the new system (because they can reach full progression in much less than 33 wins).
    there might be more advantage and disadvantage but this what come to my mind right now.

    the thing that we all should not forget, how the game should be designed, should it only be designed for the vet players, or for only the new players, or for only the mid-players, or try to make work for all.
    sure any change in the game, it will serve some players more than others.

    but if we think about it here, how the vet players got effected, well they need to play an extra 10 matches +- (per event or per 3 days), boo hoo big deal (probably these vet players will face some lower rosters player, that might take them small amount time to win the match).

    but how the game will help the new/mid players, even the 4* champed players, they have chance to get the progression rewards (that is a real big deal to them).
  • mr_X
    mr_X Posts: 375 Mover and Shaker
    Yeah. I am definitely in the hope this is not the shape of things to come camp. 
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    I'm still hoping for a compromise and dual wins/points system but I doubt that is even being considered. I'll play in either system, and try to make either work. I will say though, wins would have been nice last night when I had to make a wild run to 900 for Lockjaw and finally gave up around 760 because I'd gain/lose at the same rate for a solid hour.
  • Pants1000
    Pants1000 Posts: 484 Mover and Shaker
    Beer40 said:
    I will say though, wins would have been nice last night when I had to make a wild run to 900 for Lockjaw and finally gave up around 760 because I'd gain/lose at the same rate for a solid hour.
    That's exactly why I'm looking forward to win-based progression.  That wall can be really frustrating.

    I think it will mean I can get max progression every time if I want to put the time in, without worrying about timing shield hops or Line coordination.

    Those that like the shield hop game can still do so for placement.  I think they could make everyone happy by improving the placement rewards.  Give the CP to top 50 in CL8.
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    edited September 2017
    Pants1000 said:
    Beer40 said:
    I will say though, wins would have been nice last night when I had to make a wild run to 900 for Lockjaw and finally gave up around 760 because I'd gain/lose at the same rate for a solid hour.
    That's exactly why I'm looking forward to win-based progression.  That wall can be really frustrating.

    I think it will mean I can get max progression every time if I want to put the time in, without worrying about timing shield hops or Line coordination.

    Those that like the shield hop game can still do so for placement.  I think they could make everyone happy by improving the placement rewards.  Give the CP to top 50 in CL8.
    This. I was 20 points away from a Danny Rand cover that, once I dump some ISO into him, would make him a level 271. Played a 28 point match to end it and came back down points because I was hit by a 509/501 5* combo with a 400+ Thor. I'm running dual boosted 4s and my 380s are less than the persons 3*!!!! Earlier today I was getting multi tapped from someone with a level 451 (I think) Panther and had to shield. Now I'm shielded again.

    **** this ****, I'm over the compromise. You all may be able to beat me at the speedy PVP but let's see who gets their way on the message board. Edit:  Bring on wins based PVP.
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Lucifier said:
    alaeth said:
    alaeth said:
    Hmm... Math time!!!

    Current season requirements for full progression is 10k points.  Removing 2k for simulation, that's 8000/10 = 800 per event.


    This new format, no Simulation... so Developers are equating 67 wins across 2 events, which equals ~33 wins as equivalent to 800 points...
     
    800/33 = ~24pts per win

    Developers assume players attack 24pt matches. (giggle)


    Honest question: do any developers actually have 5* Champions? 4* Champions?  Do the people that make these decisions actually play the game they're coding these limits for?

    I cannot remember when I have _ever_ hit as 24 pt match - outside lightning rounds.



    I feel sorry for all the 1, 2, 3, and 4* rosters that are going to be beat to hell by 5* players just racking up wins. How is that a fun experience for those people? 



    but if we think about it here, how the vet players got effected, well they need to play an extra 10 matches +- (per event or per 3 days), boo hoo big deal (probably these vet players will face some lower rosters player, that might take them small amount time to win the match).

    10+ extra matches isn't something to "boo-hoo" at and try to make light of. It's a misconception as a result of you trying to speak to a level of the game that you haven't played at before, I get it - but if you haven't been in those shoes, you don't get to try to downplay it. Vet players have all been where you guys are, we remember the slog of trying to score more than 575 with a 3-star roster and getting pounded......you guys can't say the same about taking down 30K+ health opponents almost EVERY match. No one wants to have to do that 30+ times per event. 

    If we still had the ability to q up "lower level" teams while we have higher point totals, it wouldn't be so much of a problem, but we don't. Also, placement rewards are still going to exist, and people are still going to want them, especially if CP is a matter of ranking now. So it isn't like point values and shielding aren't still going to mean something. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Beer40 said:
    Pants1000 said:
    Beer40 said:
    I will say though, wins would have been nice last night when I had to make a wild run to 900 for Lockjaw and finally gave up around 760 because I'd gain/lose at the same rate for a solid hour.
    That's exactly why I'm looking forward to win-based progression.  That wall can be really frustrating.

    I think it will mean I can get max progression every time if I want to put the time in, without worrying about timing shield hops or Line coordination.

    Those that like the shield hop game can still do so for placement.  I think they could make everyone happy by improving the placement rewards.  Give the CP to top 50 in CL8.
    This. I was 20 points away from a Danny Rand cover that, once I dump some ISO into him, would make him a level 271. Played a 28 point match to end it and came back down points because I was hit by a 509/501 5* combo with a 400+ Thor. I'm running dual boosted 4s and my 380s are less than the persons 3*!!!! Earlier today I was getting multi tapped from someone with a level 451 (I think) Panther and had to shield. Now I'm shielded again.

    tinykitty this tinykitty, I'm over the compromise. You all may be able to beat me at the speedy PVP but let's see who gets their way on the message board. Bring on points based PVP.
    Wow, I bet this has NEVER happened to anyone before!

    If you don't want to spend on shields I get it, but someone at your level should know better than to try to make a "wild rush" for anything when you're above 700 points, nor should you be trying to make up lost points on the fly. One you cross that point threshold you have all the sharks in the water that are looking for the next level of points after the 575-CP mark, so its time to seriously start minimizing your time unshielded. It doesn't matter what boosted 4s you have, there's always going to be someone who's willing to hit you if you're worth enough points. And you seem to have no problem hitting sub 40-point matches, so you're opening yourself up to all kinds of retaliation, because you'll be worth much more to hit back. 

    I really don't understand these complaints about how rough the 700-900 zone is. Try being above 1000! Because the hits come more frequently, and for much more points, you learn the mechanics of how to protect your points better whether you want to or not. How is getting 150+ points on 3-4 high point matches more tedious and time-consuming than being forced to grind out an additional 10? Because it costs HP? If you're scoring that much in PVP, you're at a level where the game is practically throwing HP at you, so again, I don't get it. 
  • alaeth
    alaeth Posts: 446 Mover and Shaker
    edited September 2017
    @broll

    i was going to add a whole section to my post about lost points, but I didn't want to muddy the waters further (or point out that high-performing alliances use out-of-game collaboration).

    But let's take my earlier experiences prior to 5* Champions... 

    I used to climb to my "hover point" hitting 50+ point nodes to about 400+.  Then "push to shield" at > 800 - again aiming for 50+ matches only - to maximize my points (and minimize risk of immediate retaliation), but I would settle for 40s or 30s.  Getting hit during this phase is rare since it lasts maybe 1-2 hours.

    Then, I start my "Shield Hopping" - use 3 & 8 hour shields and remains shielded 99% of the time, aside from hopping.  I would search for "easy" targets, and queues up myr three nodes, then, when my shield is ready, un-shield, hits those three and re-shield.  Maximum exposure time ~ 5 minutes.

    Each fight was worth a MINIMUM of 55 points... but I would try for 70+ (up to the maximum of 75). So that's between 180 and 225.

    Let's be generous, and say every second outing, I get hit for -75...  Additionally, let's round down my progression per hop to 150 at best...


    + 300 over 11 hours (8hr + 3 hr shields) - 75 by being hit = 225 growth in 6 matches.

    So again... please explain to me how the hell I get 33+ wins in for 800 points equivalent progression...  The math doesn't make sense!


    I'm not arguing if it's possible or not - I know with 100% certainty that I can get 67 wins.  My concern is the Devs are so out of touch with their own game, and the mechanics THEY developed (shields, shield timers, MMR, queues) that are used by high-performing PvP players, that these new goals are not realistic for their players.


    Sure, I can front-run the new events, get high with my Championed Panthos and club seals until my arms are sore, but what happens to those players?  The newbies that suddenly see a sea of red nodes of "impossible" teams to retaliate against... and no clue WHY it's happening to them because they don't understand how "broken MMR" works for 5* players.


    I am a 5* player, and this change scares me because it shows a lack of understanding of how PVP is played.
  • broll
    broll Posts: 4,732 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited September 2017
    @alaeth
    I'm not saying the math is wrong for you.  It's right for the vets in battle chats and shield hoping which (being super generous) is maybe 10% of the game.  For those of us that don't jump through hoops or throw HP at shields like it's running out of style (often cause we're throwing 1000s at slots still) we loose -200 a day easy.  

    It's great for you guys that you found a way to make the broken system work to your advantage, it's not great to the game as a whole when 50% of the game (since there's really just PvE & PvP) is behind wall of obfuscation, special requirements, and major roster and/or IRL money investment.

    Now others have said that win based system is backwards in that it's easier for noobs then vets.  I agree it should not work like that either.  It should be accessible to all not just some, regardless of who the some is.  This is why I support a hybrid system (either where progression is measured in wins or points whichever comes first or points only but losses are not subtracted from progression).  We don't know how the system has changed since it was last tested, I'm still really hoping we see hybrid.  We won't know until they tell us it shows up in game.  But a test, even a not perfect one, can provide them useful insight on how to truly fix PvP (assuming they listen).
  • zodiac339
    zodiac339 Posts: 1,948 Chairperson of the Boards
    I wonder if they're also going to change the massive variance in points that players are worth to go along with win-basing progress? I mean, scoring gets pretty bizzarre. Two players using the same team can be queued up, but the same relative difficulty of the match could show 20 point from one and 40 point from the other depending on how much they've played. Then you can have two missions at 30 points a piece, but when you actually win, one gives you 10 points while the other could be 50 depending on how much they lost or won since the match making system offered them to you. There are rare times when I can take advantage of this by holding a known 5* player's retaliation, hopefully one in an alliance I can find in rankings, and checking what their scores actually are. Just wait until the last 8 hours when they're at 1200 and almost definitely shielded, and Mega Whales them for 60-70 points (despite the game showing they're worth 5 to 10). I'm quite grateful for the times when those big retaliations are offered to me.
    However, all of that junk really doesn't need to be necessary. Players in win-progress can all be worth 10-30 points and dispense with the ridiculous score variances entirely. Chalk up playing more matches to the "first-world problems" category and stop stressing. And maybe have something added to the system so we'll be able to see actual point values for opponents? Seriously, getting 20-30 points less than what's listed is really annoying.

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