Do you like the new PvP system (progression rewards based on wins instead of points gained)?

Blergh

Spudgutter said:

That's the most infuriating thing about this whole issue, and game in general. Whenever they make a change, it takes two days or less for the announcement thread come up with half a dozen good ideas that would address the issue much better.  But for whatever reason, we never hear WHY they don't implement something.  They wonder why the forum gets rabid sometimes, it's the mushroom principle.  Stop keeping us in the dark and fed excrement.

How hard would it be to just come in, reply to a comment or two, and say "Oh, that's not feasible with the code," or "We thought of that too, but want to try this first."

Well, writing wise there is a general rule about giving the readers what they need not what they want. As they never really know what they want. Think it's the same with any creative outlet - so it is understandable why that happens.

There nothing worse than working on something that you no longer even like as its drifted too far from your idea. 

There maybe be reason why they can't disclose the information too. There are a lot of companies invovled, D3, Demiurge, Marvel, and the Puzzle Quest is a licenced property too, isn't it? So it may come down to something as simple as an existing NDA as to why they can't comment on changes or rejected suggestions. Or the amount of red tape to get around NDAs.

Changes most probably have to be agreed on by a number of parties too. All of them will put their creative spin on suggestions as well as limits as them deemed it to be negative in some regard. Processes behind the scenes are never as simple as they seem. 

Working on that scale, 5 differents companies, god knows how many departments in each, the customers... there is alot of creative input and differing needs to juggle and balanced. And months of work and compromise just to reach an agreement.

It maybe frustrating but there will be reasons. I wouldn't get angry over it.  

Borstock

Stick said:

Defensive wins did count, I'm pretty sure.

I was confused by this because I don't think that they did, but next to the score at the end of a win was a "+1". So maybe they built the system with the option to turn that on. 

Rod5

Spudgutter said:

Rod5 said:

One point that seems to be misunderstood is around shield hopping and being hit several times during one fight...as soon as you're not shielded, people can see your team and fight your team.

The longer you're unshielded, the more people are likely to hit you. If you get hit several times in one fight, it's because you've been out long enough for people to see and hit you. They didn't see and hit you in one fight - they saw you earlier and have taken untill that fight to hit. 

You learn how long you can stay out at whatever score, and tailor your hops accordingly. If you're in 4* world, at 900 it is not very long in whichever slice.

Which actually plays into the argument FOR progression based pvp.  People have made the complaint forever about pve for the same reason;  for optimal play, you have to play a certain amount, at a certain time.  

What some people are saying here is that they want to play a game when they want to play it, not around some weird and sometimes unknown play schedule.  

Why does someone, who is lucky enough to play at that schedule, get rewarded, while
 a fan of the game and marvel universe, who plays at every opportunity they can in their busy life, gets less?  If you were the business, wouldn't you try to do something that accommodates both?  

I have a busy job and 2 small children. You can still be competitive with limited time if you use good strategies. 

Like I keep saying, if you don't want to get hit, just play PvE. 

Daredevil217

I absolutely loved it. I think my favorite events are the Gauntlet (sans rewards being ****) and SHIELD Sim.  Reason being you get to try out different team combos and put thought into your matches. 

BOTH PVP and PVE as constructed are about speed speed speed. Use your best/fastest characters, refuel with healthpacks, rinse and repeat. 

I was using new teams, seeing new teams and having a blast thinking about different in-game strategies rather than "I'd better win this in less than a minute or else I'll come out -200 points". And "I'd better play only my best characters lest I come out to -200 points".

Loved playing at my own pace. And had no problem reaching 40 as I was actually enjoying the game rather than playing for speed. Thanks for the test. Please implement this going forward!

I really liked that you kept the points as well so the competitors can still compete and play their game but progression is still available to everyone (as it should be).

Rod5

Daredevil217 said:

I absolutely loved it. I think my favorite events are the Gauntlet (sans rewards being tinykitty) and SHIELD Sim.  Reason being you get to try out different team combos and put thought into your matches. 

BOTH PVP and PVE as constructed are about speed speed speed. Use your best/fastest characters, refuel with healthpacks, rinse and repeat. 

I was using new teams, seeing new teams and having a blast thinking about different in-game strategies rather than "I'd better win this in less than a minute or else I'll come out -200 points". And "I'd better play only my best characters lest I come out to -200 points".

Loved playing at my own pace. And had no problem reaching 40 as I was actually enjoying the game rather than playing for speed. Thanks for the test. Please implement this going forward!

I really liked that you kept the points as well so the competitors can still compete and play their game but progression is still available to everyone (as it should be).

This would be resolved by PvE removing placement, the natural next step after aligning enemies lvls to CL. Then you can play at your own pace to your heart's content.

PvP is meant to be that way, otherwise it's just  glorified PvE. Come and play if you like, if you don't then don't. Simple.

Daredevil217

Rod5 said:

Daredevil217 said:

I absolutely loved it. I think my favorite events are the Gauntlet (sans rewards being tinykitty) and SHIELD Sim.  Reason being you get to try out different team combos and put thought into your matches. 

BOTH PVP and PVE as constructed are about speed speed speed. Use your best/fastest characters, refuel with healthpacks, rinse and repeat. 

I was using new teams, seeing new teams and having a blast thinking about different in-game strategies rather than "I'd better win this in less than a minute or else I'll come out -200 points". And "I'd better play only my best characters lest I come out to -200 points".

Loved playing at my own pace. And had no problem reaching 40 as I was actually enjoying the game rather than playing for speed. Thanks for the test. Please implement this going forward!

I really liked that you kept the points as well so the competitors can still compete and play their game but progression is still available to everyone (as it should be).

This would be resolved by PvE removing placement, the natural next step after aligning enemies lvls to CL. Then you can play at your own pace to your heart's content.

PvP is meant to be that way, otherwise it's just  glorified PvE. Come and play if you like, if you don't then don't. Simple.

But the thing is you can still grind and shield hop and only use your best characters because the point system is still there for the uber competitive. It's just they made progression attainable for everyone who wants it which I feel is a fair compromise for those who were stopped playing PVP altogether when they realized they often lose more points than they win during a single battle.  The idea of not losing progression when bombarded but losing placement just makes sense.  If placement was also based on wins you'd have a point but the old meta game was still very much in tact.

This board (the hardcore) is the place where I expected the biggest amount of aversion and even the majority vote here said they liked the change. I imagine the casual crowd and newbies who aren't represented in this poll liked it even more- not having to get bombarded again and again to the point of quitting, not seeing the same teams ad nauseum, not being aware of internet strategies, etc.

Sure there are people who won't like the change and the system could use some tweaks but hopefully D3 realizes that though they'll ruffle some feathers, not taking progression away from people will be more loved than hated and it will encourage more people to play their game. Again, well done!

MaxxPowerz

I agree with the devs, PVE shouldn't be about how much you can climb by joining as late as you can. It's counter intuitive. Under this new system the awards will be much more accessible to the player base who needs them the most, and it will also award those who work harder to achieve them.

Hopefully they can rectify some of the veterans complaints by introducing a new clearance level with better rewards.

Stick

The whole "that's PvP, get used to it" argument is so weak and old. While PvP and PvE operate differently, the rewards from both are useful in both, 100% interchangeably. Covers are always useful. ISO is always useful. CPs are always useful, etc. While some people might focus on one over the other, it behooves all players to do as much of everything as possible; the more things you do, the more rewards you can get, and thus the more things you can do.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there has to be some sort of compromise. The top players will remain on top while everyone else scrambles to get what rewards they can. It stands to reason that the people with the most resources will get the best rewards the majority of the time. The part that doesn't make sense is those people just beneath the constant top10 or whatever amount it is who usually have to put in MORE effort to get to where they end up. It's incredibly frustrating. Then you have the people on the top of the pile saying how easy it is to get where they are. Sure, the system works fine as is FOR YOU, but for the rest of us banging our heads against the wall, not so much.

I do think the people who have things figured out, and have the resources to get to the top should stay there, but the tl;dr is that people need better rewards for their effort, however that plays out.

Spudgutter

Stick said:

The whole "that's PvP, get used to it" argument is so weak and old. While PvP and PvE operate differently, the rewards from both are useful in both, 100% interchangeably. Covers are always useful. ISO is always useful. CPs are always useful, etc. While some people might focus on one over the other, it behooves all players to do as much of everything as possible; the more things you do, the more rewards you can get, and thus the more things you can do.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, there has to be some sort of compromise. The top players will remain on top while everyone else scrambles to get what rewards they can. It stands to reason that the people with the most resources will get the best rewards the majority of the time. The part that doesn't make sense is those people just beneath the constant top10 or whatever amount it is who usually have to put in MORE effort to get to where they end up. It's incredibly frustrating. Then you have the people on the top of the pile saying how easy it is to get where they are. Sure, the system works fine as is FOR YOU, but for the rest of us banging our heads against the wall, not so much.

I do think the people who have things figured out, and have the resources to get to the top should stay there, but the tl;dr is that people need better rewards for their effort, however that plays out.

Well said. Everytime i post, trying to find some sort of compromise, someone responds with that same argument. I make it to 900 without line coordination, and have played the game for 1300+ days.  You know what i would like to see?  The game around for another 1300.   And my opinion is that a good way to get there is to engage as many people as possible in every aspect of this game. All i keep seeing are people who have accepted the meta, and demand we accept it.  What's so wrong with trying to make it better for everyone?

Dotproduct

I'm wondering if the following could fix the 40 point grind issue in the upper tier.

If you go into battle with an average level greater than the opponent (since you select it) it counts as 1 point.
If you go in with a comparable (say within 10-40 levels depending on rarity) it counts as 2 points.
If you go in with an even lower team (> 50 levels etc.) it counts as 3 points.

This would promote the use of comparable or competitive match ups rather than the same team set; get the 5* to try lower rosters and open up the field; penalise for reaching down and rewarding for reaching up.

Make the point requirement still 40 so those looking for (or can only beat) easy targets to get their 40 can do it as intended. Those who think they can do it faster by being better can do it 3x faster so it is about 13-15 wins as previous.

Borstock

That system is more complicated than you seem to think it is. There would be far too many factors to consider. How would you rate a max champ 5*, a boosted max champ 3*, and a 1* versus a team with a champed 4*, boosted non-champ 3*, and a max champ 2*? 

Strength of schedule is tough in this game. It's easier to just base it on your points and similar teams. 

Dotproduct

Borstock said:

That system is more complicated that you seem to think it is. 

Explain?

If the system tells you when you select your characters "This match is worth X points" people will think a lot harder about what they are selecting than just picking their best team all the time (or they could, but just get 1 point).

Borstock

Dotproduct said:

Borstock said:

That system is more complicated that you seem to think it is. 

Explain?

If the system tells you when you select your characters "This match is worth X points" people will think a lot harder about what they are selecting than just picking their best team all the time (or they could, but just get 1 point).

I added to my previous comment to explain. There's just such a huge variety of what you can face based on * levels, number of covers, boosting, champ levels, etc... 

10_EFX_01

Takes 37 wins to get the 4* reward(Given the fact the first 3 matches are a walk through)

ZootSax

Borstock said:

Stick said:

Defensive wins did count, I'm pretty sure.

I was confused by this because I don't think that they did, but next to the score at the end of a win was a "+1". So maybe they built the system with the option to turn that on. 

Yeah, the defensive win banner showed you getting "+1 wins", but they didn't count on your tally.  I only know this because I had 5 defensive wins while I was as away once, but didn't hit the next progression.

DyingLegend

Progression was better. 

Just played a game. I had 875. Finished with 41 points but lost 200 during game. 

I threw my phone....... Pvp is the freaking worst and I truly needed that red agent venom card (2/5/5). Now I'm done playing for the night because I will never get to 900 this time around. 

I quit 

heybub

Yes, yes, yes, 1000 times yes!!!!

revskip

DyingLegend said:

Progression was better. 

Just played a game. I had 875. Finished with 41 points but lost 200 during game. 

I threw my phone....... Pvp is the freaking worst and I truly needed that red agent venom card (2/5/5). Now I'm done playing for the night because I will never get to 900 this time around. 

I quit 

Were you at 875 and shielded?  Because that shouldn't have been enough time to lose that many points?

Or did you climb to 875 and then try for one more fight?  That sounds like you would have suddenly been a pretty tasty q along with being out for a while so the point loss makes more sense.  

When you are past 800 points you need to be shielding and trying no more than 2 or 3 fights at time.  You are available to too many rosters to not get hit unless you are rocking two champed 5*s.  You have to understand that at that point it is a resource management exercise.  You are trading 75 or 150 HP for a 4* cover.  Sames goes for hitting 1200.  You are then trading 600-900 HP for 15CP and a 4* cover.  

Spudgutter

revskip said:

DyingLegend said:

Progression was better. 

Just played a game. I had 875. Finished with 41 points but lost 200 during game. 

I threw my phone....... Pvp is the freaking worst and I truly needed that red agent venom card (2/5/5). Now I'm done playing for the night because I will never get to 900 this time around. 

I quit 

Were you at 875 and shielded?  Because that shouldn't have been enough time to lose that many points?

Or did you climb to 875 and then try for one more fight?  That sounds like you would have suddenly been a pretty tasty q along with being out for a while so the point loss makes more sense.  

When you are past 800 points you need to be shielding and trying no more than 2 or 3 fights at time.  You are available to too many rosters to not get hit unless you are rocking two champed 5*s.  You have to understand that at that point it is a resource management exercise.  You are trading 75 or 150 HP for a 4* cover.  Sames goes for hitting 1200.  You are then trading 600-900 HP for 15CP and a 4* cover.  

The tips to get to 900 keep coming in, so i will repeat what has been countered after each one: we don't want to have to play the shield hop game.

We get it, under the current model, that is what you have to do.  So, if you are reading this, please stop giving advice on how to do this!  This thread is about the pvp progression test.  So far, more people have said that they enjoyed it.  Sure, myself and others are on your side that 40 wins is waaaaaay too much, and it was a tinykitty move to pull the cp out. Lets not throw out the baby with the bathwater.  

When i get home, if i want to play video games on PC or console, i fire it up and play.  Maybe for 30 minutes, maybe for two hours.  Either way, it's on my schedule.  We are just looking for some flexibility in that regards.  This is a mobile game (mostly, apologies to steam users).  If i am in line at the bank, is it so wrong to want to play this game for 5 minutes?  If i am on my lunch break, why can't i get in a couple matches?  The examples are endless.

Again, I, and others, get that it is not the current model.  But if you are going to respond to me, answer me this first: if they put the cp back into progression, and make the win counts reasonable, would you still be against it?

sinnerjfl

Spudgutter said:

When i get home, if i want to play video games on PC or console, i fire it up and play.  Maybe for 30 minutes, maybe for two hours.  Either way, it's on my schedule.  We are just looking for some flexibility in that regards.  This is a mobile game (mostly, apologies to steam users).  If i am in line at the bank, is it so wrong to want to play this game for 5 minutes?  If i am on my lunch break, why can't i get in a couple matches?  The examples are endless.

Again, I, and others, get that it is not the current model.  But if you are going to respond to me, answer me this first: if they put the cp back into progression, and make the win counts reasonable, would you still be against it?

That is why the shield system exists basically... so that you can play when you want and then shield to save your score until you are ready to play again, but im gonna guess that you are unwilling to spend the HP to shield like a lot of people who think PVP should be easy and prefer the progression-by-wins test they tried.

And how is it better to ask you to basically grind out wins to achieve the same rewards? It takes me about 25 matches to hit 1200 and overall, its not very time-consuming.


The shield system we have right now works pretty well, as long as you know how to use it, which is when to climb and when to shield. And that you're willing to spend HP to get those progression rewards.

If they lowered it to 20 wins for the 4* cover and CP was at 30 wins, I'd be fine with it. But, hahahaha, that will never happen because its just too easy and its fairly obvious they want CP scarcity to be a thing.

It will also never happen because people wouldn't shield anymore and I'm pretty sure that a lot of HP is used for shields, they probably don't want to lose a revenue stream.