Do you like the new PvP system (progression rewards based on wins instead of points gained)?

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Comments

  • elvy75
    elvy75 Posts: 225 Tile Toppler

    Though, for all those bemoaning 40 wins for the 4* - I played today and it took me 30 to get to the 10CP - I do believe that the 40is likely right on point as per the stats.
    maybe you need that many wins, but i needed 21 wins for 1142 points. got to 900 with about 14-15 wins, don't remember anymore. however don't think i am not up for pvp being better experience for developing rosters, but it shouldn't be punishing people who are able to play it at much higher level than they are. Solution needs to be made to satisfy both groups of players, as if this goes live lots of paying customers will leave the game and put the cash into some other games instead.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2017
    elvy75 said:

    Though, for all those bemoaning 40 wins for the 4* - I played today and it took me 30 to get to the 10CP - I do believe that the 40is likely right on point as per the stats.
    maybe you need that many wins, but i needed 21 wins for 1142 points. got to 900 with about 14-15 wins, don't remember anymore. however don't think i am not up for pvp being better experience for developing rosters, but it shouldn't be punishing people who are able to play it at much higher level than they are. Solution needs to be made to satisfy both groups of players, as if this goes live lots of paying customers will leave the game and put the cash into some other games instead.
    I've seen it mentioned before about spending and has yet to be backed up.

    I won't argue that the 40 wins was too much, and that it hurts higher end rosters.  I would like them to tweak both the progression and placement rewards.  The fact that they even tried this in the first place is a good sign.

    But, since we don't know for certain who spends how much, isn't just as easy to hypothesize that if pvp were made more accessible to more (beginning to middle teir) rosters, they may be just as inclined to spend more money, since they game is now easier and more fun for them?  At least sh81 acknowledges that it is worse for high end rosters while singing the praises of the test.  A lot (not all, obviously) of the complaints come as just that: complaints, with few suggestions to fix it.
  • westnyy2
    westnyy2 Posts: 194 Tile Toppler
    I agree with Elvy. I was at 900 in about 15 matches and lost the urge to play after that. I accept it helps out newer and lower players but definitely not higher end.

    I also tried to climb again later in the event and kept getting attacked over and over. Frustration didn't set in, boredom did and I went on to something else. I finished with 27 wins and all were against triple 5's or double 5's boosted 4.

    The overall gameplay wasn't terribly different but I was definitely turned off by it and psychologically had no interest to play competitively. PVE is grindy enough or perhaps I'm just finally at my end game. Either way, it's a no for me.
  • CT1888
    CT1888 Posts: 1,201 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:
    CT1888 said:
    sh81 said:
    revskip said:
    sh81 said:
    Which perfectly expresses a large part of my problem with PVP.

    There are so many nuances, strategies, requirements, constraints... To getting anywhere with it, its just too much.

    The test simplified things massively, made PVP accessible and (for me) enjoyable.  As well as rewarding.
    That was actually my biggest complaint about the system.  Removed all nuance, most of the strategy and made it too mindnumbingly simple.  I enjoy PvP because it has a learning curve and because it requires alliance coordination and encourages socialization.  It makes the mode a community based mode.  It gives top rosters a breadth of options on how to play, cooperatively, sniping and suppressing, front running, climbing late etc.  And rosters that are less developed can still compete if they learn how to maximize their hops and when the best times are to shield.  

    This system removed all of that and made it PVE lite.  All grind and no strategy.  



    Did it though?

    Ive asked already, and havent seen an answer, but - as someone chasing placement and competition, what exactly did the  test change for you?

    So far as I can see it flooded the queues with easy targets willing to take a beating and not care at all.

    Did it remove competition?  Did it stop you needing to cooperate with your alliance?  Time your shield hops?  Pick your targets on your climb?

    Hands up, Im ignorant on the higher play in PVP, I do stand to be corrected - but from what I can see I cannot see what has changed for the higher level game.

    Aside from your progression likely being extended.

    Though, for all those bemoaning 40 wins for the 4* - I played today and it took me 30 to get to the 10CP - I do believe that the 40is likely right on point as per the stats.

    Yes it did, for higher end rosters. With 2 champed 5*s, my queue was triple 5* champs, 2 5s + high 4, 1 5 with 2 max champed 4s. I tried sandbagging to fine low rosters with low points to no avail. I couldn't get high enough after that to break MMR and beat down on weak rosters.

    This took progression and put it behind a horrible grind.

    It gave me a choice of spending a lot more time to grind out rewards, coming back every few hours once health packs had regenerated, or to forego progression and shoot for placement. So I played for placement, and put in the same effort as the previous event for significantly less rewards.

    For what it's worth, I have used outsde communication only once to hit 1200, a couple of months back to prove I could (though the time to co-ordinate was unappealing so haven't pursued that) and never for 900. Through 3* and 4* playing, it was never necessary.


    How does this differ from normal?  Surely you would be matched against those teams anyway?

    So the issue is that you arent good enough for placement, and have had progression made more difficult?  Is that it?

    If thats it, then I can appreciate you having a problem with added work for no extra reward, that makes sense.

    Its unfortunate, and hopefully a second test, post feedback, would be more balanced.

    Would you have an issue then?

    Placement has been top 25 for quite a while, and I recently champed Black Panther to join Thanos, so depending on slice and time, top 10 may become a possibility. On the announcement, there was definitely frustration at the idea of the 15cp being made harder for me to reach.
    On the actual playing, progression wouldn't have been more difficult per se, rather way more time consuming that I was willing to accept.

    That, along with the progression and placement being separated change the feel of it for me, to something less. When I have more time I'll try and explain it properly.

    When they test again, I'll play again, and when they settle on a final format, I'll adapt, change or even consider stopping playing. Change is part of the process, I accept that.
  • TheVulture
    TheVulture Posts: 439 Mover and Shaker
    Yes; should say that my current PvP participation level is nil though, so the appeal was to get in & grab some CP.  :)
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    I had no problem with the test. Did 20 matches Tuesday night, floated, and then did my last 20 in last three hours of my slice the next day. I finished with 1278 points and finished 2nd in my bracket in SCL 8. So I didn't tank SCLs and rob anyone of rewards either like some others did.

    Was it more matches than I typically need? Yes, but it was actually less stressful as I knew I wouldn't have any issue with t10 since I play strategically and chose an appropriate slice for such a test. With some win count tweakage, I think this could be a very good system.
  • Taganov
    Taganov Posts: 279 Mover and Shaker
    I had to change my opinion on this. Voted yes.
  • DarthDeVo
    DarthDeVo Posts: 2,178 Chairperson of the Boards
    Already posted this in the Worst Moment of the Day thread, but felt it would be appropriate here: 

    I. HATE. PVP. Black Vortex, got to 899. Want to guess how many points I lost trying to win one more match? 140. ONE HUNDRED FORTY FREAKING POINTS!!! Old PvP can die in a frigging dumpster fire. I finally gave up after blowing well over 1000 HP on healthpacks and shields and actually being worse off than when I started. This. THIS is why people HATE PvP with a burning passion. 

    Only consolation is the end of vaulting, so maybe I'll have a chance to actually pull X-23's red cover. Probably not, though. 
  • Rod5
    Rod5 Posts: 589 Critical Contributor
    DarthDeVo said:
    Already posted this in the Worst Moment of the Day thread, but felt it would be appropriate here: 

    I. HATE. PVP. Black Vortex, got to 899. Want to guess how many points I lost trying to win one more match? 140. ONE HUNDRED FORTY FREAKING POINTS!!! Old PvP can die in a frigging dumpster fire. I finally gave up after blowing well over 1000 HP on healthpacks and shields and actually being worse off than when I started. This. THIS is why people HATE PvP with a burning passion. 

    Only consolation is the end of vaulting, so maybe I'll have a chance to actually pull X-23's red cover. Probably not, though. 
    It's not "old" PvP, it's "current" PvP.

    Just because your roster is not able to deliver rewards you clearly believe you're entitled to, doesn't mean the system is broken.

    I didn't outright hate the win total, but it was too many wins required and for a 5* player it gets super-long and boring. 15CPs or nothing for T10 placement is brutal though. I dropped to CL5 and even then had to hop quite a lot and secured T10 with 16xx.

    I think it's a nice mechanic for early players, but maybe as a replacement for the rewards up to 900 (excluding the CPs). Have 900 as 10CPs and 1.2 as 15 as now. 
  • NotBAMF
    NotBAMF Posts: 408 Mover and Shaker
    edited July 2017
    DarthDeVo said:
    Already posted this in the Worst Moment of the Day thread, but felt it would be appropriate here: 

    I. HATE. PVP. Black Vortex, got to 899. Want to guess how many points I lost trying to win one more match? 140. ONE HUNDRED FORTY FREAKING POINTS!!! Old PvP can die in a frigging dumpster fire. I finally gave up after blowing well over 1000 HP on healthpacks and shields and actually being worse off than when I started. This. THIS is why people HATE PvP with a burning passion. 

    Only consolation is the end of vaulting, so maybe I'll have a chance to actually pull X-23's red cover. Probably not, though. 
    The same thing is happening to me on Hooked On A Feeling. I just keep getting smacked down the ladder, and it stinks. You shouldn't be punished for things beyond your control. If you lose a fight you initiate, then sure... dock some points. But the points-based PVP feels like running in quicksand at times. I really hope wins-based comes back and becomes the new norm. There was a lot more strategy to it (seeing who my opponent was using and throwing out a team to counter them without worrying about that team when I'm not controlling them) than the points system (which just forces you to use and heal your three best characters every single battle in the hopes that people won't battle you as much then). 

  • DarthDeVo
    DarthDeVo Posts: 2,178 Chairperson of the Boards
    Rod5 said:
    DarthDeVo said:
    Already posted this in the Worst Moment of the Day thread, but felt it would be appropriate here: 

    I. HATE. PVP. Black Vortex, got to 899. Want to guess how many points I lost trying to win one more match? 140. ONE HUNDRED FORTY FREAKING POINTS!!! Old PvP can die in a frigging dumpster fire. I finally gave up after blowing well over 1000 HP on healthpacks and shields and actually being worse off than when I started. This. THIS is why people HATE PvP with a burning passion. 

    Only consolation is the end of vaulting, so maybe I'll have a chance to actually pull X-23's red cover. Probably not, though. 
    It's not "old" PvP, it's "current" PvP.

    Just because your roster is not able to deliver rewards you clearly believe you're entitled to, doesn't mean the system is broken.

    I didn't outright hate the win total, but it was too many wins required and for a 5* player it gets super-long and boring. 15CPs or nothing for T10 placement is brutal though. I dropped to CL5 and even then had to hop quite a lot and secured T10 with 16xx.

    I think it's a nice mechanic for early players, but maybe as a replacement for the rewards up to 900 (excluding the CPs). Have 900 as 10CPs and 1.2 as 15 as now. 
    I can and have gotten to 900. Yes, the boosted list for me for this event wasn't favorable, but to have spent all that time and energy essentially for nothing is a huge waste. 

    And yes, I understand that was true for many high end players during the test, which is why they need to figure out a way to have CP in progression. 

    And for the record, one of my main issues with PvP is perfectly captured in this example: while at 899 trying to win a match for about 25 points (I think) I win, only to come out to a message that I had lost (or more accurately, the computer controlling my team had lost) something like five matches at once for 140 points. I can't win that many matches for that many points at once, and it really sucks that it seems to be a one way street in that regard. 
  • vaportrail
    vaportrail Posts: 64 Match Maker
    To me, the thrill of pvp was going for that progression reward at 900 or 1200 or whatever on a shield hop and sweating bullets while playing as fast as I could.  I have lost points many times in the 3+ years I've played but that is what kept me coming back.  Not mindlessly playing matches bored out of my gourd trying to rack up 40 wins.  PVP is the endgame mode, and if they **** it I might not bother playing mpq at all.  To me this thread is like people complaining that call of duty (or any other shooter) multiplayer is too hard compared to the campaign vs. the AI.  It's apples to oranges.  
  • DarthDeVo
    DarthDeVo Posts: 2,178 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
    vaportrail said:
    To me, the thrill of pvp was going for that progression reward at 900 or 1200 or whatever on a shield hop and sweating bullets while playing as fast as I could.  I have lost points many times in the 3+ years I've played but that is what kept me coming back.  Not mindlessly playing matches bored out of my gourd trying to rack up 40 wins.  PVP is the endgame mode, and if they tinykitty it I might not bother playing mpq at all.  To me this thread is like people complaining that call of duty (or any other shooter) multiplayer is too hard compared to the campaign vs. the AI.  It's apples to oranges.  
    OK, I can understand that. I was fortunate enough to see that progress bar climb past 900 more often than not last season, and it was always a thrill to see it happen. 

    And all those good feelings just got kicked in the junk right out the top floor of a 30 story building during the poo fest that was Black Vortex. Hell, even if I had managed to hit 900, it still would have been a thoroughly miserable experience that would have me questioning if PvP is worth the misery and hassle. 
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    vaportrail said:
    To me, the thrill of pvp was going for that progression reward at 900 or 1200 or whatever on a shield hop and sweating bullets while playing as fast as I could.  I have lost points many times in the 3+ years I've played but that is what kept me coming back.  Not mindlessly playing matches bored out of my gourd trying to rack up 40 wins.  PVP is the endgame mode, and if they tinykitty it I might not bother playing mpq at all.  To me this thread is like people complaining that call of duty (or any other shooter) multiplayer is too hard compared to the campaign vs. the AI.  It's apples to oranges.  
    Maybe not the best analogy, but i understand what you are trying to say.  But just because you like pvp a particular way, why does everyone else have to like it?  I think it is at least fair to acknowledge that almost half of the poll voted yes, that they liked the change.  

    Do i think they need to tweak the win counts for better rosters, possibly CL related?  Absolutely.
    Should they put cp back into progression? Absolutely. 
    But should they keep the old format? Imo, absolutely not.
  • revskip
    revskip Posts: 1,038 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited July 2017
    DarthDeVo said:
    Already posted this in the Worst Moment of the Day thread, but felt it would be appropriate here: 

    I. HATE. PVP. Black Vortex, got to 899. Want to guess how many points I lost trying to win one more match? 140. ONE HUNDRED FORTY FREAKING POINTS!!! Old PvP can die in a frigging dumpster fire. I finally gave up after blowing well over 1000 HP on healthpacks and shields and actually being worse off than when I started. This. THIS is why people HATE PvP with a burning passion. 

    Only consolation is the end of vaulting, so maybe I'll have a chance to actually pull X-23's red cover. Probably not, though. 
    Next time shield up when you hit that 899 instead of just getting in that one more match.  Do some skipping to find an easier team to beat in that last match.  Use a couple of boosts when you are ready to unshield, do your match or even two easy matches and then reshield.  

    Most people who I see having these issues with dropping massive points aren't using shields correctly which is why they hit a giant wall.  As you rise closer and closer to 900 you appear in more players' MMR including people who couldn't queue you earlier because your team is too weak relative to theirs.  When you cross that Rubicon the only way to not lose tons of points is to use shields optimally.  

    And if for some reason you are just 100% against using shields (say a pure FTP player who also has need for more roster slots) then time your final climb at a time when fewer people are out hitting.  Time it with the end grind of a PVE event for instance, or at an off hour when fewer people are playing (I do this a lot at 4am EST when it is too late for the US players and morning commute time for the Western Europeans).  
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    A_Wise_Man said:
    This new system is great!  What a good idea.  Means anyone can progress their roster, at least through 4*, and means real competition in pvp now instead of just people hitting cupcakes 12,000 times a day.  Plus theres a ton more iso to be had on the way to progression.  Make this permanent now 

    If they hit 12,000 cupcakes a day they'll still hit progression. They also took out 15cp from progression. I don't know why anyone would cheer that move. Also, 40 wins to get 4star progression equals 22.5 points per win. You have to play waaaay more matches to reach the 4 star cover. I just clubbed seals to reach my 40 and then didn't shield at all. Why bother even calling it pvp?
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler

     But just because you like pvp a particular way, why does everyone else have to like it?

    What aspect of this new format is PVP? It's just a PVE event to 40 wins. They should rename the game to Marvel Grind Quest once this format is rolled out.
  • Qubort
    Qubort Posts: 203 Tile Toppler
    revskip said:


    Most people who I see having these issues with dropping massive points aren't using shields correctly which is why they hit a giant wall.

    That nail just got hit on it's head.


    Too many people who refuse to use shields complain about losing points. Everyone should know roughly where they can float and when they'll have to hop. If someone doesn't know that, they should have no opinion of PVP because they have no concept of how to play it. 


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