Progression Reward Changes in Versus Tournaments (7/20/17)
Comments
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I have not read this whole thread (barely the first couple pages), but wanted to give my thoughts/results of the event... Over the course of the couple days I played the Divine Champions test event I reached 40 Wins and got the 4* (X-Force Wolverine) cover. I ended up with ~1,020 points with 3hrs remaining, and shielded for the duration, making T50. Except at the end, I never shielded, and throughout the event, I got hit many times, bringing net losses on order of 400 points.
I don't play every PvP event, and I never play for placement. Most tournaments, I go for 575pts/10CP and call it a day. If I've got spare time and inclination, I'll try to march up to 800-900 points to get the 3-4* characters. I've only ever tried for 1200 a half-dozen times, and succeeded only once or twice. So I wouldn't miss those CP being removed.
I like this new format... I could start play early and leisurely make my way to 40 Wins. It's a lot less stressful, and don't have to worry about my Defensive results stealing away my progress. My only preference would be to reduce the 4* target, to say 30-35 Wins. Adjust the other prizes accordingly, as needed.
Even after the significant point loss I mentioned above, I ended up with ~120 more points than I normally would need to get the 4* character (which would have been 3-6 matches worth, at that high end). Also note that while I was climbing, I didn't care about picking high-point targets, or even trying to keep my targets at >36pts, I fought anyone I thought I could win, regardless of their value. So, in theory, it's possible I could have earned more points if I'd been more selective. One could argue I could have lost more points, but I honestly felt like I was hit MORE times in this event than I normally ever am. I have a pretty good roster and field a good team, leaving better targets to choose from, as I'm usually only losing 100-200pts.
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Just want to share the story on my side (me alone, probably)sh81 said:
The very fact Ive needed coaching from an experienced player should ring warning bells on what is wrong with PVP.Daiches said:
In every single game, you need to learn how the game works. There's really no pick-up-and-win in any game. Think you could get the equivalent of the second highest reward if you just picked up League of Legends without learning how your character works, lanes, team composition, etc? Or any other game you might think off?sh81 said:I understand that perfectly, I just dont want to do it. Its far more effort/hassle than I am prepared to put into a mobile game. Its bad enough I play it as much as I do!
I think most people do understand there is a whole community aspect, they just dont want to take that extra step.
Thatr said, without Line, or support of some kind, PVP is hard to get into and do well with. For the average player its often a really horrible experience.
An average player that would like to get anywhere in those games would read up on it, chat with friends about it, engage in the community. They wouldn't have a horrible experience. Just a learning curve that may or may not be challenging for them. And this game is no different.
In another post you said you were only 100 days behind me in play time. The difference between our rosters/score is exactly that engagement in the community and learning from others (and giving advice).
Try it. PM'ing with OJSP has already given you a leg up, as you stated yourself. Imagine having the knowledge of thousands of players ready to tap at any moment. Players of all roster sizes, play time, experience, slices and so on. If you decide it really isn't for you, so be it, but you really won't know unless you try.
As Ive just stated above, PVE is entirely accessible, it simple. PVP is the opposite.
PVP is complicated, there is even a whole language around it, you think I know what cupcakes and grills are? Do I hell! You think hearing about collusion online about hitting certain people/not hitting certain people is appealing? Think again!
I dont want to have to check who is queued against line just to see if I can face them.
I dont want to have to learn slang just to know what is going on.
PVE, as Ive said, is accessible. Any person can start, compleletly green, and make progress.
Yes, like PVP, theres a learning curve, after which more progress is possible. Unlike PVP, PVE players get a foot in the door from the first moment.
However, from the start, PVP is completely unforgiving (if not, "punishing") to those just trying to find their way. Anyone not willing to dowload line, find the right community, play to the rules provided by elder statesmen, and all the rest - those guys are just ground into dust.
What about someone like me who prefers a more complicated game mode ?
To me, PvE is very boring and repetitive. You schedule yourself around the sub flip-time, go grind the nodes as fast as possible, play the same event over and over and over. I only play PvE these days for ISO and CP.
PvP offers me more variety. Having a rotating featured characters and boosted list keeps things fresh.
We are just two people who like different playstyle. I don't think there is any issue of PvP being that complicated or have a whole set of slang for everything. Any online multiplayer games have the exact same thing.
As many people have said over and over. You don't need LINE or any types of communication to reach 90% of the rewards. I'm a 4* player. I moved up to 4* last anniversary event, and I hit 900 in almost every PvP since then. The few times I missed was because I got busy with work/life etc. and I never be in part of any LINE PvP coordinating groups. Never shield check, just hit whoever I want in front of me.
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This sums these discussions for me (I'm Buzz, btw)
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Your post contradicts itself. Everything you claimed you learned over time with PVE, you should naturally learn over time playing PVP. It takes time, patience, and a well-developed roster to play PVE optimally, which is no different from PVP. No one places high in PVE because they "just play". It takes comprehension to realize that a node indicating that it will be back to full points in 24 hours means that it's best to clear it ASAP when the sub begins, and to grind it as close to end time as possible. It takes a thorough knowledge of the sub itself, and what teams work great on your roster, in order to be able to finish your clears as one of the first 10 people. It takes time to realize how well your roster can get through a grind, and to know the difference it could make between starting a grind with 2 hours left, and hour and half left. It takes time to realize how having a wave node in a sub affects said time, and how you should arrange the order of your clears. All of that doesn't happen if you "just play".sh81 said:
Im a PVE player, PVE is simple. Matches are put in front of you, you beat them, you get rewards.BoyWonder1914 said:
I don't get why people need someone to tell them that matches worth less than a certain amount of points are inefficient uses of health packs and time. Just from playing PVP in general you should have seen matches worth 40+ points before, and seen matches worth less than 20 points before. It should be common sense which makes more sense to climb on. Why fight Carol/Medusa/Blade for 23 points when there's matches for more points against similar level or even weaker opponents? I get that many aspects of PVP aren't intuitive, but knowing not to waste your time on low-point level matches isn't rocket science. There has always been a skip button.sh81 said:I understand that perfectly, I just dont want to do it. Its far more effort/hassle than I am prepared to put into a mobile game. Its bad enough I play it as much as I do!
I think most people do understand there is a whole community aspect, they just dont want to take that extra step.
Thatr said, without Line, or support of some kind, PVP is hard to get into and do well with. For the average player its often a really horrible experience.
Over time you learn that playing at certain times ensures more return from your effort.
And then, basically, the stronger the roster, the faster the clear, the higher the placement.
Either way, progression is ultimately a very simple thing to achieve. 5 clears a day, as and when you choose = full progression.
PVP is infinitely more complicated, from the beginning. The very fact that you cannot "just play" shows a fundamental issue with it.
"Just play" in PVE gets you so far (progression). After which you learn a few tricks and you can advance yourself some more (placement).
"Just play" in PVP gets you precisely nowhere. Today I have played 31 matches and reached the dizzy heights of 587 points (including 200HP on health packs). Is it any wonder that the test appealled to me?
PVP is no different, I honestly get the impression that you just don't feel that putting in the effort to understand it better is worth it. Which is fine, but don't try to talk about it like it's "infinitely more complicated" for that reason alone. It's actually quite simple once you understand the most basic of rules, and you even get multiple practice arenas to try it out with Lightning Rounds and SHIELD Sim. Sure there are plenty of things about it that aren't intuitive, but neither are any of those things that I just laid out about scoring t10 in PVE.4 -
Which illustrates HIS point. If you've ever beat an incredibly easy team for 40+ while you were above 500ish points yourself, then you've eaten a cupcake/grill. Most people that have EVER played PVP have at some point, and they have someone in a LINE group to thank for that. People don't run these incredibly easy teams for themselves, they do it to help bring someone else up. They announce that they are unshielding with said team, and then let people q the easy team while they get ready to shield. Obviously anyone with an appropriate point level and MMR will be able to q up the grill team as well, not just the people in the LINE group.sh81 said:
This kind of illustrates my point, I have literally no idea what that means!Daiches said:
Oh man, you really should take notice of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.Beer40 said:
Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that.lokiagentofhotness said:Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP.
That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
"Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.
Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
Grills/Cupcakes help the entire slice as a whole, not just said LINE group. So everyone who complains that this outside communication isn't "fair" has eaten off of our plates as some point before too.0 -
sh81 said:
How did the test remove that complication?
To the best of my (limited) understanding, I do not see how having progression fixed to wins removed any or all complication from PVP.
I do, however, see how the progression fixed to wins made PVP accessible to all (something it is NOT),
Which, already evidenced by me in this thread, has shown its possible to take that and begin to build an understanding.
Getting a foot in the door is half the battle.
Pre test - PVP was not even open to letting me get a toe in.
During the test? I got to really have a go, feel rewarded for doing so, and get some reward to keep me interested.
I gained a lot.
What exactly did you lose?
In my case (as a 4* player), it's that ridiculously high 40 wins for a 4* cover. It makes PvP becomes repetitive like PvE. There are several posts in this thread from many people who hit 900 pts with far less than 40 wins. I myself hit 1k at 29 wins and I already took some hits near the end. I lost track near 900 since the hits came in late, but I think I hit 900 around 24 wins. If this new mode become permanent, I still don't know what I'll do to get to those wins. Why do I have to play significantly more matches for the same rewards ? This is not a match with seed team or 3* that I can go through in a few minutes. It takes significantly more time for those matches let alone if you can find one. I don't know your MMR band (MMR = set of opponents that the game match you with), but I stop seeing anything below champed 4* once I hit around 500 pts/ 11 wins in the test event. This is only one data point but the new system would imply I need three times as much matches to get the same rewards. If you were in my shoes, would you be happy about the change ? There are many other way to address this problem without having negative impact to players like me and those solution are what get my votes. The one I heard about alot and make sense is making the progression becomes hybrid; wins or total point whichever hit the goal first.
edit: Typos
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I'm going to address these out of order. To the second part I put in bold: Thanks, since that has probably happened to me at some point in nearly 600 days.BoyWonder1914 said:
Which illustrates HIS point. If you've ever beat an incredibly easy team for 40+ while you were above 500ish points yourself, then you've eaten a cupcake/grill. Most people that have EVER played PVP have at some point, and they have someone in a LINE group to thank for that. People don't run these incredibly easy teams for themselves, they do it to help bring someone else up. They announce that they are unshielding with said team, and then let people q the easy team while they get ready to shield. Obviously anyone with an appropriate point level and MMR will be able to q up the grill team as well, not just the people in the LINE group.sh81 said:
This kind of illustrates my point, I have literally no idea what that means!Daiches said:
Oh man, you really should take notice of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.Beer40 said:
Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that.lokiagentofhotness said:Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP.
That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
"Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.
Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
Grills/Cupcakes help the entire slice as a whole, not just said LINE group. So everyone who complains that this outside communication isn't "fair" has eaten off of our plates as some point before too.
But that takes us to the first part I put in bold: I may have hit these on occasion but I don't see teams that are easy very often, and sometimes never in an event. To be able to externally communicate and know exactly who these teams are and when they drop...that's a whole 'nother level of advantage.
And people are attacking us that question such an external advantage in game.
Once again, I will state that I have no issue with people wanting to be part of a community. But I firmly stand by my statement questioning if its good for PVP or not.
Hopefully, after the test they will adopt the idea many have had and have a dual based points/wins system so that the community can do what they do and the rest of us can advance too.
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Your point simply isn't true, because in either case you gain said knowledge through experience. PVP knowledge is no more or less accessible to someone than PVE knowledge is. You gain a base of PVP knowledge every time you play. If you avoid PVP altogether, or just get in to get your 300 or 575 and get out, then that's on you. If you don't comprehend the mechanics, that's on you. Don't make these broad statements that PVP is so hard or frustrating just because YOU don't get it.sh81 said:You miss my point. Im not saying there isnt nuance to PVE, nor that there is learning.
What I am saying is that it is accesible. You can start PVE without knowing a thing, and still make progression.
You get a foot in the door, a start, and its enough for you to use as a foundation to develop from.
That just does not exist with PVP.
You either know it, or you dont. You never get that base to build from.
Instead you get crucified for even putting your foot through the door.
EDIT: And to illustrate my point - I see posts on here with regard to PVE saying "Oh no not Venom Bomb" and I genuinely have no idea what the problem is. I dont really think of them as distinct. I know that grinding late and clearing early is optimum, and I just stick to that. I pay no attantion to the different events and (probably to the favour of PVP!) I really dont see the distinction. I just play, and I do pretty well for myself.
Even your supposed illustration only further proves the nuances of PVE that you seem to be trying to downplay. The same teams are not going to be successful in the exact same ways every event. Some enemy teams will require more strategy. You can't throw Dr. Strange and Thanos at everything, you have to learn to leverage what you have on your roster best with what the enemies are if you want to clear faster. THAT'S A NUANCE, that not just everyone figures out right away. It takes several attempts of seriously trying for certain placement rewards.0 -
First of all, it's not an advantage if you have access to this community too. It's not some wall that got put up, and only a select few people were allowed to benefit. Your refusal to join it is on you. Secondly, as you've proven yourself, you don't even need to be a part of these communities to catch these grills. There are plenty of posts in this thread from LINE users who've said that they've gotten to 900+ without the need for coordination. If you can't q a 50+ point match WITHOUT a line room, then once again, that's on you. Either you're not climbing high enough to catch one, your MMR isn't right to catch one, or you're climbing at a time when anyone with reasonably high points is shielded.Beer40 said:
I'm going to address these out of order. To the second part I put in bold: Thanks, since that has probably happened to me at some point in nearly 600 days.BoyWonder1914 said:
Which illustrates HIS point. If you've ever beat an incredibly easy team for 40+ while you were above 500ish points yourself, then you've eaten a cupcake/grill. Most people that have EVER played PVP have at some point, and they have someone in a LINE group to thank for that. People don't run these incredibly easy teams for themselves, they do it to help bring someone else up. They announce that they are unshielding with said team, and then let people q the easy team while they get ready to shield. Obviously anyone with an appropriate point level and MMR will be able to q up the grill team as well, not just the people in the LINE group.sh81 said:
This kind of illustrates my point, I have literally no idea what that means!Daiches said:
Oh man, you really should take notice of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.Beer40 said:
Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that.lokiagentofhotness said:Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP.
That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
"Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.
Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
Grills/Cupcakes help the entire slice as a whole, not just said LINE group. So everyone who complains that this outside communication isn't "fair" has eaten off of our plates as some point before too.
But that takes us to the first part I put in bold: I may have hit these on occasion but I don't see teams that are easy very often, and sometimes never in an event. To be able to externally communicate and know exactly who these teams are and when they drop...that's a whole 'nother level of advantage.
And people are attacking us that question such an external advantage in game.
Once again, I will state that I have no issue with people wanting to be part of a community. But I firmly stand by my statement questioning if its good for PVP or not.
Hopefully, after the test they will adopt the idea many have had and have a dual based points/wins system so that the community can do what they do and the rest of us can advance too.
Not climbing high enough - YOUR problem. You don't need grills to get to an appropriate point level, all you need is the right MMR to q up someone who has a sufficiently higher point total than you, and BE ABLE to beat the team
MMR isn't right - Womp womp. No one who has the capability of q'ing a 4-star team should ever have this problem. If you're stuck in 3* land, then it's understandable, as most 3* star rosters aren't going to be climbing to 750+
Climbing Late - Most people are going to be shielded in the last 8 hours of an event. However there should still usually be enough late climbers before you hit the 3 hr mark to still find high-point qs.
I swear you guys act like the ONLY people you are capable of q'ing up for high points are in line rooms. If you could gather all the people in the world who play PVP, I can guarantee you that there will be much more people who don't use LINE than do. Fact of the matter is, high-point targets should be there for you whether you use the damn app or not.2 -
First of all, I mentioned that I like complicated game play in response to your opinion that PvP is too complicated and is an issue which is not directly related to this wins vs. pts based progression.So you play for progrssion, and this meant you had to put more effort in to get the rewards?
I can understand that.
Though, I have to admit, as a PVE player, the idea of playing so few games for those rewards does have a bit of a "You dont know how well youve had it!!" in my mind.
PVE takes a huge amount more time!
Its worth bearing in mind this is test number 1, they will ask for feedback, and (hopefully) adjust and try again.
If max progression was 30 wins would you have an issue?
And, my previous point remains, does more games mean you cannot play a more complicated strategy? Have you been rovbbed of the line community and all that entails?
Or is it likely strategies will adapt and then little will change for you?
I play PvP for both progression and placement (T25-T50) actually. With the change, I will have to do a heap load of extra effort for the exact same rewards. And yes, this rewards payout is what drew me to PvP all the way back when I was a 3* players.
I'm not sure what max progression you have in your mind. If it is the 15 cp (1200 pts) for 30 wins, that is fine. If it is the 4* (900 pts) I think that is a little to high. I based this on the fact that if you beat someone with the exact same pts as yours, you get 38 pts. So 900 pts is 23.7 wins. 25-26 wins is probably what sounds right. It is true that you don't lose the number of wins, but in the current system you can (and you should) find someone worth more than 38 pts to fight against to begin with. So using 38 pts per win, in my opinion, is already conservative.
Again, I don't use LINE for PvP game play, so I can't answer you that. (I use LINE mostly for randomly chat about the game, asking for roster advice, help my alliance mates up to speed, brag about random achievements, etc.)
Lastly, I don't know. This test is, again in my opinion, poorly carried out. Divine Champion is one of those weird PvP that you can run 3x characters of your choice, it has a poor rewards, etc (again, already mentioned many times in other posts). I cannot draw anything thing conclusive. Even so, PvP is essentially multiplayer mode, I can't tell what will happen since everything will adapt based on what other players do (not me).
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I just put my responses to you in bold. Maybe I'm totally doing something wrong. But getting info from multiple sources that sometimes conflicts with each other doesn't help any of us to figure out if the outside communication does help.BoyWonder1914 said:
First of all, it's not an advantage if you have access to this community too. Having access and having the time to add another layer to the game are separate things. We'll have to agree to disagree here. It's not some wall that got put up, and only a select few people were allowed to benefit. You are correct. Your refusal to join it is on you. Again, you are correct. Secondly, as you've proven yourself, you don't even need to be a part of these communities to catch these grills. Here you're wrong. I assume I've caught one. I don't actually know. If they're like seed teams then no, I've never caught one. I was being polite and thanking you for the possibility I've caught one. There are plenty of posts in this thread from LINE users who've said that they've gotten to 900+ without the need for coordination. If you can't q a 50+ point match WITHOUT a line room, then once again, that's on you. Either you're not climbing high enough to catch one, your MMR isn't right to catch one, or you're climbing at a time when anyone with reasonably high points is shielded. Ok, I'll have to think about this one.Beer40 said:
I'm going to address these out of order. To the second part I put in bold: Thanks, since that has probably happened to me at some point in nearly 600 days.BoyWonder1914 said:
Which illustrates HIS point. If you've ever beat an incredibly easy team for 40+ while you were above 500ish points yourself, then you've eaten a cupcake/grill. Most people that have EVER played PVP have at some point, and they have someone in a LINE group to thank for that. People don't run these incredibly easy teams for themselves, they do it to help bring someone else up. They announce that they are unshielding with said team, and then let people q the easy team while they get ready to shield. Obviously anyone with an appropriate point level and MMR will be able to q up the grill team as well, not just the people in the LINE group.sh81 said:
This kind of illustrates my point, I have literally no idea what that means!Daiches said:
Oh man, you really should take notice of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.Beer40 said:
Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that.lokiagentofhotness said:Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP.
That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
"Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.
Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
Grills/Cupcakes help the entire slice as a whole, not just said LINE group. So everyone who complains that this outside communication isn't "fair" has eaten off of our plates as some point before too.
But that takes us to the first part I put in bold: I may have hit these on occasion but I don't see teams that are easy very often, and sometimes never in an event. To be able to externally communicate and know exactly who these teams are and when they drop...that's a whole 'nother level of advantage.
And people are attacking us that question such an external advantage in game.
Once again, I will state that I have no issue with people wanting to be part of a community. But I firmly stand by my statement questioning if its good for PVP or not.
Hopefully, after the test they will adopt the idea many have had and have a dual based points/wins system so that the community can do what they do and the rest of us can advance too.
Not climbing high enough - YOUR problem. You don't need grills to get to an appropriate point level, all you need is the right MMR to q up someone who has a sufficiently higher point total than you, and BE ABLE to beat the team I climb as soon as I join an event. Should I not see similar levels of teams? Typically I run out my leveled 3*, and (hopefully) either 1 or 2 boosted 4*. I either see 3* teams for 30 points or less, teams similar to mine for 40 points or less, and then the 50+ point teams always have 2 boosted 4* or near max covered/under leveled 5*. 50+ point matches are almost always substantially stronger than my best team.
MMR isn't right - Womp womp. No one who has the capability of q'ing a 4-star team should ever have this problem. If you're stuck in 3* land, then it's understandable, as most 3* star rosters aren't going to be climbing to 750+ I'm not sure if this is correct or not.
Climbing Late - Most people are going to be shielded in the last 8 hours of an event. However there should still usually be enough late climbers before you hit the 3 hr mark to still find high-point qs. I don't play in the last 20 hours of a PVP.
I swear you guys act like the ONLY people you are capable of q'ing up for high points are in line rooms. If you could gather all the people in the world who play PVP, I can guarantee you that there will be much more people who don't use LINE than do. Fact of the matter is, high-point targets should be there for you whether you use the damn app or not. The only people that seem to talk about qing up these big targets are either LINE users, previous LINE users, or top level rosters. Are others doing it that are similar in roster to us? Probably but they don't talk about it much, if at all.0 -
I'm not sure if there will be an official Typeform for feedback on the test pvp reward system but I am just going to throw in here my general perceptions of it.
++encourages activity early in event
++more activity early on makes a larger points pool to play with
--completion requirement feels too high, preferred 30 to 35 wins at most
Sorry, not too deep on my part.
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If your roster isn't at the level that allows you to q high point targets, or you simply can't beat them, then once again, that's on you. Your ability to beat these teams, or q these teams, has nothing to do with a LINE room, so I'm not seeing what that has to do with the "fairness" of being on LINE. Having ACCESS to LINE and have having time are completely unrelated, so yet again, that's on you. I find it funny that you find time to post on forums, but not coordinate your efforts with a group of like-minded people that are there to help you out. You not having time to be on line is no one else's problem but yours. It is most definitely an option for you, but you refuse. That doesn't mean its "unfair". You just said you had the capability of q'ing 4 star teams, and 4-star teams by default have the ability to score into 700+ territory. Therefore, you should naturally be q'ing up one of these teams when you start to enter the 400+ range.Beer40 said:
I just put my responses to you in bold. Maybe I'm totally doing something wrong. But getting info from multiple sources that sometimes conflicts with each other doesn't help any of us to figure out if the outside communication does help.BoyWonder1914 said:
First of all, it's not an advantage if you have access to this community too. Having access and having the time to add another layer to the game are separate things. We'll have to agree to disagree here. It's not some wall that got put up, and only a select few people were allowed to benefit. You are correct. Your refusal to join it is on you. Again, you are correct. Secondly, as you've proven yourself, you don't even need to be a part of these communities to catch these grills. Here you're wrong. I assume I've caught one. I don't actually know. If they're like seed teams then no, I've never caught one. I was being polite and thanking you for the possibility I've caught one. There are plenty of posts in this thread from LINE users who've said that they've gotten to 900+ without the need for coordination. If you can't q a 50+ point match WITHOUT a line room, then once again, that's on you. Either you're not climbing high enough to catch one, your MMR isn't right to catch one, or you're climbing at a time when anyone with reasonably high points is shielded. Ok, I'll have to think about this one.Beer40 said:
I'm going to address these out of order. To the second part I put in bold: Thanks, since that has probably happened to me at some point in nearly 600 days.BoyWonder1914 said:
Which illustrates HIS point. If you've ever beat an incredibly easy team for 40+ while you were above 500ish points yourself, then you've eaten a cupcake/grill. Most people that have EVER played PVP have at some point, and they have someone in a LINE group to thank for that. People don't run these incredibly easy teams for themselves, they do it to help bring someone else up. They announce that they are unshielding with said team, and then let people q the easy team while they get ready to shield. Obviously anyone with an appropriate point level and MMR will be able to q up the grill team as well, not just the people in the LINE group.sh81 said:
This kind of illustrates my point, I have literally no idea what that means!Daiches said:
Oh man, you really should take notice of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.Beer40 said:
Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that.lokiagentofhotness said:Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP.
That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
"Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.
Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
Grills/Cupcakes help the entire slice as a whole, not just said LINE group. So everyone who complains that this outside communication isn't "fair" has eaten off of our plates as some point before too.
But that takes us to the first part I put in bold: I may have hit these on occasion but I don't see teams that are easy very often, and sometimes never in an event. To be able to externally communicate and know exactly who these teams are and when they drop...that's a whole 'nother level of advantage.
And people are attacking us that question such an external advantage in game.
Once again, I will state that I have no issue with people wanting to be part of a community. But I firmly stand by my statement questioning if its good for PVP or not.
Hopefully, after the test they will adopt the idea many have had and have a dual based points/wins system so that the community can do what they do and the rest of us can advance too.
Not climbing high enough - YOUR problem. You don't need grills to get to an appropriate point level, all you need is the right MMR to q up someone who has a sufficiently higher point total than you, and BE ABLE to beat the team I climb as soon as I join an event. Should I not see similar levels of teams? Typically I run out my leveled 3*, and (hopefully) either 1 or 2 boosted 4*. I either see 3* teams for 30 points or less, teams similar to mine for 40 points or less, and then the 50+ point teams always have 2 boosted 4* or near max covered/under leveled 5*. 50+ point matches are almost always substantially stronger than my best team.
MMR isn't right - Womp womp. No one who has the capability of q'ing a 4-star team should ever have this problem. If you're stuck in 3* land, then it's understandable, as most 3* star rosters aren't going to be climbing to 750+ I'm not sure if this is correct or not.
Climbing Late - Most people are going to be shielded in the last 8 hours of an event. However there should still usually be enough late climbers before you hit the 3 hr mark to still find high-point qs. I don't play in the last 20 hours of a PVP.
I swear you guys act like the ONLY people you are capable of q'ing up for high points are in line rooms. If you could gather all the people in the world who play PVP, I can guarantee you that there will be much more people who don't use LINE than do. Fact of the matter is, high-point targets should be there for you whether you use the damn app or not. The only people that seem to talk about qing up these big targets are either LINE users, previous LINE users, or top level rosters. Are others doing it that are similar in roster to us? Probably but they don't talk about it much, if at all.2 -
Your accusations that there isn't PVP information RIGHT HERE on the damn forums for you to learn from is highly irritating. Your accusations that you can't simply figure PVP out after playing through it is also extremely irritating. First of all, you need to understand that getting hit is simply part of PVP, and the only way to avoid that, is to minimize the time that you spend unshielded. COMMON SENSE.sh81 said:BoyWonder1914 said:
Your point simply isn't true, because in either case you gain said knowledge through experience. PVP knowledge is no more or less accessible to someone than PVE knowledge is. You gain a base of PVP knowledge every time you play. If you avoid PVP altogether, or just get in to get your 300 or 575 and get out, then that's on you. If you don't comprehend the mechanics, that's on you. Don't make these broad statements that PVP is so hard or frustrating just because YOU don't get it.sh81 said:You miss my point. Im not saying there isnt nuance to PVE, nor that there is learning.
What I am saying is that it is accesible. You can start PVE without knowing a thing, and still make progression.
You get a foot in the door, a start, and its enough for you to use as a foundation to develop from.
That just does not exist with PVP.
You either know it, or you dont. You never get that base to build from.
Instead you get crucified for even putting your foot through the door.
EDIT: And to illustrate my point - I see posts on here with regard to PVE saying "Oh no not Venom Bomb" and I genuinely have no idea what the problem is. I dont really think of them as distinct. I know that grinding late and clearing early is optimum, and I just stick to that. I pay no attantion to the different events and (probably to the favour of PVP!) I really dont see the distinction. I just play, and I do pretty well for myself.
Even your supposed illustration only further proves the nuances of PVE that you seem to be trying to downplay. The same teams are not going to be successful in the exact same ways every event. Some enemy teams will require more strategy. You can't throw Dr. Strange and Thanos at everything, you have to learn to leverage what you have on your roster best with what the enemies are if you want to clear faster. THAT'S A NUANCE, that not just everyone figures out right away. It takes several attempts of seriously trying for certain placement rewards.
It is true.
There is a scale to the learning required, and PVP far outweighs PVE.
PVE is simple. When it opens finish the nodes as quickly as you can. Then wait as late as you can to finsih them before the next node. There you go, PVE in a nutshell.
Even better than that, without that knowledge, you can start playing blindly, and you can progress. Progression is about effort, not skill, so pretty well anybody can make their way through progression rewards right out of the gate.
It is impossible to describe PVP as such.
PVP? Where to begin?
I come in as a newb, play a bit, win some, lose some, and eventually run out of lives. Progression wise I might have made an elite token. Cool, thats fine. I come back to it a few hours later, and find that I now need to make up 150 points just to get back to where I left off. The same effort goes in, the health packs get spent, until eventually Im just a little further than I was. Then I begin to think, "What is the point of this?"
How is that for accessible? Because I can assure you it doesnt compare to PVE.
So, ok, I need to learn some. Where to begin? Well, it seems, I need to download LINE, set up an account, and then go scouting for the right room. IF I am lucky enough to find it then need to set myself up as a padawan to some elder sage to learn the mysterious ways of PVP....
No, I DONT get it. I admit that, Im not too proud. You know what else? Im not stupid. Comprehension isnt beyond me. My objection is the need to go through so many hoops just to make a casual game playable.
There needs to be a lower ground, a landing ground for new players to come in and find their way. There just isnt in PVP.
Read the thread, there are those that know, and assume its easy and everyone should already know, and then there is everyone else.
As to your second point, thats all about just playing the game, be that PVP or PVE. Over time you learn what teams work, what dont, how is good against what opponent... Thats just universal, and all part of putting your time in. Its not distinct to either play mode. This is an entirely different aspect of the game. This thread is about game modes, not basic play.
Secondly, any time you hit someone during your climb, you open yourself up for retaliation. COMMON SENSE. Therefore, if you want to avoid your exposure to retaliation, you need to hit as few targets as possible, for as most points as possible. COMMON SENSE. Everyone of all roster levels plays PVP, and therefore if you don't have a roster level of at least 4-stars, you're going to take more hits from the 3-star and 4-star tier. As your roster gets stronger, you take less hits. COMMON SENSE.
You don't need LINE to figure out the BASIC mechanics of how it works. In your own words, "it's all about just playing the game". Your inability to progress to where you want doesn't give you the right to talk about it like it some complex rubik's cube. You have the ability to ask anyone you want for advice, whenever you want on here without LINE, so please stop calling this knowledge "inaccessible". Everyone starts playing PVP blindly, don't act like playing PVE is so incredibly simple that any new person can come in and just rattle off T10, or even progression. If you didn't have these forums there's no way in hell you would know the first time EXACTLY what you needed to do to hit progression. First of all, most people don't even have the roster to hit progression their first time, because their roster is more than likely going to consist of a bunch of unchamped 2-3 stars after they finish the prologue. It took MONTHS of trying PVE out before my measly 2* roster could hit full progression in PVE.2 -
Well, LINE also means people telling you, "My defense team is not Carol, Bl4de, and Medusa, so queue me up." They don't just get a bunch of points and go "Points!" They provide something that won't destroy attackers with ridiculous passives. No, it's not unfair. It's just the product of the game that Demi designed.BoyWonder1914 said:
If your roster isn't at the level that allows you to q high point targets, or you simply can't beat them, then once again, that's on you. Your ability to beat these teams, or q these teams, has nothing to do with a LINE room, so I'm not seeing what that has to do with the "fairness" of being on LINE. Having ACCESS to LINE and have having time are completely unrelated, so yet again, that's on you. I find it funny that you find time to post on forums, but not coordinate your efforts with a group of like-minded people that are there to help you out. You not having time to be on line is no one else's problem but yours. It is most definitely an option for you, but you refuse. That doesn't mean its "unfair". You just said you had the capability of q'ing 4 star teams, and 4-star teams by default have the ability to score into 700+ territory. Therefore, you should naturally be q'ing up one of these teams when you start to enter the 400+ range.Beer40 said:
I just put my responses to you in bold. Maybe I'm totally doing something wrong. But getting info from multiple sources that sometimes conflicts with each other doesn't help any of us to figure out if the outside communication does help.BoyWonder1914 said:
First of all, it's not an advantage if you have access to this community too. Having access and having the time to add another layer to the game are separate things. We'll have to agree to disagree here. It's not some wall that got put up, and only a select few people were allowed to benefit. You are correct. Your refusal to join it is on you. Again, you are correct. Secondly, as you've proven yourself, you don't even need to be a part of these communities to catch these grills. Here you're wrong. I assume I've caught one. I don't actually know. If they're like seed teams then no, I've never caught one. I was being polite and thanking you for the possibility I've caught one. There are plenty of posts in this thread from LINE users who've said that they've gotten to 900+ without the need for coordination. If you can't q a 50+ point match WITHOUT a line room, then once again, that's on you. Either you're not climbing high enough to catch one, your MMR isn't right to catch one, or you're climbing at a time when anyone with reasonably high points is shielded. Ok, I'll have to think about this one.Beer40 said:
I'm going to address these out of order. To the second part I put in bold: Thanks, since that has probably happened to me at some point in nearly 600 days.BoyWonder1914 said:
Which illustrates HIS point. If you've ever beat an incredibly easy team for 40+ while you were above 500ish points yourself, then you've eaten a cupcake/grill. Most people that have EVER played PVP have at some point, and they have someone in a LINE group to thank for that. People don't run these incredibly easy teams for themselves, they do it to help bring someone else up. They announce that they are unshielding with said team, and then let people q the easy team while they get ready to shield. Obviously anyone with an appropriate point level and MMR will be able to q up the grill team as well, not just the people in the LINE group.sh81 said:
This kind of illustrates my point, I have literally no idea what that means!Daiches said:
Oh man, you really should take notice of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.Beer40 said:
Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that.lokiagentofhotness said:Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP.
That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
"Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.
Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
Grills/Cupcakes help the entire slice as a whole, not just said LINE group. So everyone who complains that this outside communication isn't "fair" has eaten off of our plates as some point before too.
But that takes us to the first part I put in bold: I may have hit these on occasion but I don't see teams that are easy very often, and sometimes never in an event. To be able to externally communicate and know exactly who these teams are and when they drop...that's a whole 'nother level of advantage.
And people are attacking us that question such an external advantage in game.
Once again, I will state that I have no issue with people wanting to be part of a community. But I firmly stand by my statement questioning if its good for PVP or not.
Hopefully, after the test they will adopt the idea many have had and have a dual based points/wins system so that the community can do what they do and the rest of us can advance too.
Not climbing high enough - YOUR problem. You don't need grills to get to an appropriate point level, all you need is the right MMR to q up someone who has a sufficiently higher point total than you, and BE ABLE to beat the team I climb as soon as I join an event. Should I not see similar levels of teams? Typically I run out my leveled 3*, and (hopefully) either 1 or 2 boosted 4*. I either see 3* teams for 30 points or less, teams similar to mine for 40 points or less, and then the 50+ point teams always have 2 boosted 4* or near max covered/under leveled 5*. 50+ point matches are almost always substantially stronger than my best team.
MMR isn't right - Womp womp. No one who has the capability of q'ing a 4-star team should ever have this problem. If you're stuck in 3* land, then it's understandable, as most 3* star rosters aren't going to be climbing to 750+ I'm not sure if this is correct or not.
Climbing Late - Most people are going to be shielded in the last 8 hours of an event. However there should still usually be enough late climbers before you hit the 3 hr mark to still find high-point qs. I don't play in the last 20 hours of a PVP.
I swear you guys act like the ONLY people you are capable of q'ing up for high points are in line rooms. If you could gather all the people in the world who play PVP, I can guarantee you that there will be much more people who don't use LINE than do. Fact of the matter is, high-point targets should be there for you whether you use the damn app or not. The only people that seem to talk about qing up these big targets are either LINE users, previous LINE users, or top level rosters. Are others doing it that are similar in roster to us? Probably but they don't talk about it much, if at all.0 -
@sh81
Judging by the sheer number of requests I see every day on Reddit alone on how to maximize points in PVE, it baffles me that you don't understand that you have to learn how to play PVE just as much as you need to learn how to play PVP.
And that includes progression in both (since the most asked question is how little can I do and still get everything in progression).1 -
sh81 said:
That outside communication happens isnt a problem. Go for it, it really doesnt bother me.FokaiHI said:@sh81with all of your posts, you could've joined a Line group, hit 90 many times over. I will never t tell anyone how to play or berate anyone for the way they play, but the outside communication is no different than posting on forums.
That it is basically required to get a foothold in the game? THAT is the issue.
Ive been involved in the forums for a couple of months. Essentially signed up to see the announcements then got drawn into some debates.
Its very take it or leave it, its not required, and its something I do only as I can be bothered.
High level rosters do just fine without line, as far as I can tell.
0 -
(emphasis added)sh81 said:That outside communication happens isnt a problem. Go for it, it really doesnt bother me.
That it is basically required to get a foothold in the game? THAT is the issue.
Ive been involved in the forums for a couple of months. Essentially signed up to see the announcements then got drawn into some debates.
Its very take it or leave it, its not required, and its something I do only as I can be bothered.
That bold statement is where I take issue with your position sh81. It just isn't true. Line (or other out of game coordination) is absolutely NOT essential to get a foothold in PVP (provided you consider regularly hitting 900 in progression and placing anywhere from top 50 to top 1 depending on luck and timing a foothold).
Any sufficiently deep 4* roster (i.e. any roster that can just about always field a decent team of 2x boosted 4* champs in even PVP event) can get to 900 fairly easily on 0-2 shields. Such a roster can also get placement too if they join a late bracket. This seems to be the big disconnect between the pro- and anti- sides of the endless baking/grilling/Line debates on the forums. Line coordination is really all about the 900-1200 (and beyond) final phase of PVP. Line has relatively little to do with the climb to 900 (especially for 4* rosters who have a much harder time breaking mmr below 900).
Note: 1200 with a 4* roster is a bit harder without coordination. It can be done, but it might take as many as 5 or 6 shields, which is a real pain just in terms of scheduling, even if the expense is bearable. I would not recommend trying this.
2 -
Please change everything in mpq to be simple and mindless.
Actually, get rid of Leaderboards...soul crushing to finish last.Disband alliances...players shouldn't get better rewards than others because they joined an organized alliance. Very unfair!
Make PvP just harder seed nodes because it's disheartening to even see red hits. No player on player hits allowed.
Anything else needing to be changed? Such that not one single player could ever fail. We must protect all!1
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