Progression Reward Changes in Versus Tournaments (7/20/17)

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  • BearVenger
    BearVenger Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker
    edited July 2017
    I had a pretty heavy work week, and so despite all my previous statements, I didn't get around to the event until late at night the last two days.

    If it were a conventional event, I would have plowed ahead to 800 or 900, but going from 2 wins to 40? I just stopped shortly after the first Vintage Heroic. 32 more wins was just not worth it.
  • BearVenger
    BearVenger Posts: 453 Mover and Shaker
    Jaedenkaal said:
    Vhailorx said:
    So is the number of players who like the game enough to win 40 pvp matches 3x a week but DON'T have a strong enough roster to hit 900 regularly.
    I suspect this is not true. From what I've read around here, it's not roster strength, but external coordination that makes 900 points reachable. I suspect there's a huge number of players with the right roster strength who are unwilling or unable to coordinate effectively to reach 900 (myself included).
    I'll echo @monsieurmojo and @Vhailorx. Once I started having a few fully covered 4*s and champed 3*s, I was able to get to 900. At my current state, external communication helps me surmount the gap to 1200, but as was mentioned before, I have to spend more ISO than before to skip my fellow coordinators.
  • CT1888
    CT1888 Posts: 1,201 Chairperson of the Boards
    Crowl said:
    CT1888 said:
    This change would gut the feel of pvp that I enjoy, the back and forth nature of climbing and retaliating, and turn it into a pve light, with a competative bit tacked on for those seeking placement.
    Surely the competitive part of pvp is still there as before, it has simply become less soul-crushing for those people that most need 4* covers but who keep getting smacked back down to 800 before they can get over the 900 needed?

    There are still tweaks needed to the changes, but overall this is a very positive change that should see an increase in engagement in pvp as people realise they have a lot more flexibility in how they play an event and can eventually get the progression rewards even when their roster will prevent them from placing well.

    Yes, the competative bit is still there, but tacked on at the end if you want to get progression (after a grind/seal clubbing/mutual retaliation phase, or else ignoring progression awards and just focusing on placement, with a hollow climb devoid of the later and better progression rewards. The 15cp being the harshest bit of all (I admit to really disliking that bit as I'm only just reaching it)

    Maybe I'm just a masochist, but coming up through the game I got a lot of fun out of working out how to place higher with my roster at the time, and even the frustrations  were part of the excitement as I figured out what to do better. True, I don't know what 3* and early 4* game is like now, but I know it was doable then (when 4* ruled, and then when OML was king).
  • mkmagius
    mkmagius Posts: 37 Just Dropped In
    I don't think OJSP meant just take on every match by "just play". You should never be fighting matches worth less than 38 pts that low. If you can't find any then that's a cue to pause and come back to it when overall pts have built up. 

    Personally I think "just play" does need a little bit of strategy. When I was a 4* player I found the best success climbing in early US hours on the last day of the event. For s3 that would be Sunday, Tuesday, and Friday. That has given me the best odds of finding worthwhile matches and avoiding hits.
  • ZamWiesel
    ZamWiesel Posts: 17 Just Dropped In
    sh81 said:
    Which is contra to the simplicity with which so many say "I turned up, played a bit, and got to 800, so why cant you?"

    Go through this thread, there are plenty of examples.

    The point being, each of them assume an amount of knowledge many people just dont have.


    @OJSP Has been brilliant to me today, explained a few things and most likely put me on track to be able to actually crack 900 with some practice.  At the very least make my "575 and out" much less traumatic. 

    Something that was well beyond me before now.

    And this is the best part about being on LINE that so many don't understand. It's not just coordinating hops and bakes to make climbing easier but also about learning from experienced players. There are training rooms to ask questions and get tips. A community of people who are there to make your gaming experience better. 
  • FokaiHI
    FokaiHI Posts: 272 Mover and Shaker
    ZamWiesel said:
    sh81 said:
    Which is contra to the simplicity with which so many say "I turned up, played a bit, and got to 800, so why cant you?"

    Go through this thread, there are plenty of examples.

    The point being, each of them assume an amount of knowledge many people just dont have.


    @OJSP Has been brilliant to me today, explained a few things and most likely put me on track to be able to actually crack 900 with some practice.  At the very least make my "575 and out" much less traumatic. 

    Something that was well beyond me before now.

    And this is the best part about being on LINE that so many don't understand. It's not just coordinating hops and bakes to make climbing easier but also about learning from experienced players. There are training rooms to ask questions and get tips. A community of people who are there to make your gaming experience better. 
    Not only this, but you are getting real time help and queues at the same time. Unlike this where it's pages upon pages of telling you what to do. On Line, ask a question, try it out. I could hit 900 with my roster without Line, but a guy sent me a message to join his room and ever since, I hit 1200 easy. That's being modest. 
  • ZamWiesel
    ZamWiesel Posts: 17 Just Dropped In
    I personally don't find it to be more effort or a hassle but I know many that share that view. And yes I agree, PvP is a horrible experience for the average player just going it alone. I rarely played and never enjoyed PvP before LINE. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    edited July 2017
    sh81 said:
    I understand that perfectly, I just dont want to do it.  Its far more effort/hassle than I am prepared to put into a mobile game.  Its bad enough I play it as much as I do!

    I think most people do understand there is a whole community aspect, they just dont want to take that extra step.

    Thatr said, without Line, or support of some kind, PVP is hard to get into and do well with.  For the average player its often a really horrible experience.
    I don't get why people need someone to tell them that matches worth less than a certain amount of points are inefficient uses of health packs and time. Just from playing PVP in general you should have seen matches worth 40+ points before, and seen matches worth less than 20 points before. It should be common sense which makes more sense to climb on. Why fight Carol/Medusa/Blade for 23 points when there's matches for more points against similar level or even weaker opponents? I get that many aspects of PVP aren't intuitive, but knowing not to waste your time on low-point level matches isn't rocket science. There has always been a skip button. 
  • Silverblade
    Silverblade Posts: 51 Match Maker
    sh81 said: Thatr said, without Line, or support of some kind, PVP is hard to get into and do well with.  For the average player its often a really horrible experience.
    This...
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    sh81 said:
    I understand that perfectly, I just dont want to do it.  Its far more effort/hassle than I am prepared to put into a mobile game.  Its bad enough I play it as much as I do!

    I think most people do understand there is a whole community aspect, they just dont want to take that extra step.

    Thatr said, without Line, or support of some kind, PVP is hard to get into and do well with.  For the average player its often a really horrible experience.
    You have already taken the time to post in this thread several times.  That is exact amount of effort it woukd take to get Line, find an MPQ room and get some advice.

    I think the problem demi has with fixing pvp is that there are really two separate issues with pvp that often get conflated.  

    (1) pvp is for stronger rosters.  The top rewards are not really available to 2* and 3* players, nor do i think demi wants them to be; and
    (2) the gap between efficient and inefficient pvp play is massive.  

    These two issues are quite distinct, but are often treated as identical by casual olayers.  There are many examples of players complaining on the forums that "i can't get X points in pvp; it's so unfair!" when, upon examination, those players had perfectly fine rosters for X points and just played very inefficiently.

    Before we change everything about pvp to satisfy complaints about #2, it might make sense to give players more guidance about the pvp system.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards

    (1) pvp is for stronger rosters.  The top rewards are not really available to 2* and 3* players, nor do i think demi wants them to be

    Isn't that what SCL is (supposed to be) for?
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP. 
  • lokiagentofhotness
    lokiagentofhotness Posts: 192 Tile Toppler
    OJSP said:
    lokiagentofhotness said:
    So i slowly climbed to 900, ended up at around 20 wins, then did a couple more matches and dropped a shield at 1k because I had to go shopping. Then my shield expired and i continued climbing slowly, hitting whatever showed up until I hit 40 wins and around 1.2k. Shielded to the end in the top 5. It was ok, I appreciated the free ISO that came from all the matches. I had hoped that someone would hit me so I could engage in a great war with them while racking up wins but alas, no one did. :(
    Should've stayed unshielded.. :wink:
    I'm always unshielded.
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    lokiagentofhotness said:
    Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP. 
    Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that. 

    That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.

    "Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.

    Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
  • Daiches
    Daiches Posts: 1,252 Chairperson of the Boards
    Beer40 said:
    lokiagentofhotness said:
    Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP. 
    Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that. 

    That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.

    "Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.

    Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
    Oh man, you really should take notice  of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.
  • Vhailorx
    Vhailorx Posts: 6,085 Chairperson of the Boards
    Jaedenkaal said:

    (1) pvp is for stronger rosters.  The top rewards are not really available to 2* and 3* players, nor do i think demi wants them to be

    Isn't that what SCL is (supposed to be) for?
    Two things can be true simultaneously.  The basic Pvp system was designed almost 3 years before clearance levels.  It shouldn't be surprising that their purposes overlap a bit.  Also, the pvp is called "versus".  It is not exactpy impluasible to think that system of players competing against other players would favor those players with the best possible rosters.  (This is not intended as a defense of the system, just a description.  I thini demi intends pvp to favor 5* players over weaker players, while i think demi intends for pve to provide a somewhat more even playing field).
  • Beer40
    Beer40 Posts: 826 Critical Contributor
    acescracked said:
    Beer40 said:
    lokiagentofhotness said:
    Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP. 
    Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that. 

    That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.
    Your post is exactly why us "vets" get frustrated with newish players. You assume too much.

    Outside communication isn't what gives us high point targets. It's our MMR. Yes the grills can make life easier but last PvP I was in S5 and hit 1200 (to get t5) hitting 0 grills and 0 line usage.

    Sometimes I goto s1 and climb without Line hitting 65+ point targets all the way to 1300.
    The widely held belief, from the comments I have read from both pro and anti outside communication is that this is true in most cases. Apologies for assuming too much, but the pro-LINE group isn't doing a great job to clarify and/or dispute this. Also, I don't really want to argue, I was just answering a question directed at those of us that "complain" (or in my case, question) outside communication.

    Daiches said:
    Beer40 said:
    lokiagentofhotness said:
    Even PVE is for experienced players - there are many people who don't know how to play optimally and if you do it alone you either gotta figure it out somehow or use line or some other form of outside communication to learn the tricks. I'm not sure why everyone only complains about outside communication for PVP. 
    Its so much more obvious. Example: "I got to 1200 in 15 matches" when those of us that don't use outside communication almost never see high point totals like that. 

    That's a huge competitive advantage, and its used by grilling/cupcaking/working outside the confines of MPQ. Its easily apparent to everyone.

    "Optimal play" in PVE is pretty self-evident if you care to look. As far as bracket sniping and those things,tbh, I've heard them mentioned a bunch and still don't fully understand them or how they really help unless you just want placement.

    Not trying to argue or anything, just answering your question.
    Oh man, you really should take notice  of who you are talking too when trying to insult someone for being cupcake eaters.
    So I don't even know what you mean with that comment. As I'll state for the 3rd time, I was answering a question. If someone took that as an insult then they did. That wasn't the intent. 

    I feel like you're trying to threaten me with your comment "you should take notice" like I need to walk a tightrope in a comments section? But I'm sure that is highly unlikely and more along the lines of I misunderstand what you're saying just as you misunderstood me.

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