Update to Heroes for Hire (6/23/17) *Updated (6/26/17)

TheBaku

MissChinch... I love it... Brigby  please? 

Jsh2014

MissChinch said:

OK, I assume we're far beyond useful feedback or suggestions that would ever actually be considered, but I just wanted to toss this out there, assuming that frequency of purchasing was an issue (daily purchases is too much, one every 5 days seems like it wont be)

@Brigby is this an issue you can still provide feedback to the designers on?

Have a Heroes for Hire store sell 5 specific 4* covers for 5 days, one of which being a cover for the current crash hero.  Have the store gray out once someone purchases one of these covers, making them unable to purchase the other 4 options.  Have the store refresh at the same time it would for the next crash (plus 4 other covers)

You still throttle purchases to the amount that its currently at.  You still make the crash hero available.  Now you cycle through all possible 4* covers in the same amount of time the daily incarnation used to.  This would make purchasing targeted 4* covers possible with the added wrinkle of having to make a hard decision if your covers are in the same store...  not quite as good as the previous store, but VASTLY superior to the existing one.

I really think they might need to hire you

Style55

MissChinch said:

OK, I assume we're far beyond useful feedback or suggestions that would ever actually be considered, but I just wanted to toss this out there, assuming that frequency of purchasing was an issue (daily purchases is too much, one every 5 days seems like it wont be)

@Brigby is this an issue you can still provide feedback to the designers on?

Have a Heroes for Hire store sell 5 specific 4* covers for 5 days, one of which being a cover for the current crash hero.  Have the store gray out once someone purchases one of these covers, making them unable to purchase the other 4 options.  Have the store refresh at the same time it would for the next crash (plus 4 other covers)

You still throttle purchases to the amount that its currently at.  You still make the crash hero available.  Now you cycle through all possible 4* covers in the same amount of time the daily incarnation used to.  This would make purchasing targeted 4* covers possible with the added wrinkle of having to make a hard decision if your covers are in the same store...  not quite as good as the previous store, but VASTLY superior to the existing one.

Granted I'm not honestly expecting them to make the change I'm still glad you came up with what would be a viable and reasonable middle ground change to the horrid state of affairs that in the newly neutered HfH.

orbitalint

@MissChinch

Good idea but what about the need to appease the RNG god?! They have to feed him! Can't give targeted covers without a sacrifice

Brigby

Königsmacher said:

Brigby

Now with the store updated (more or less), I'd like to know how long the cycle with the third cover will last.

I can think of two way how this could be handled.
1. Will the colour in the store rotate when the Crash rotation starts from the beginning again? (Example: "third cover cycle" ends with X-Force Wolverine, new Crash rotation with X23 starts a new "first cover cycle")

2. Will the third cover cycle last until we're back at Hulkbuster again? So next time IMHB shows up, the store offers the first cover now for every character coming after him?

Can you please find out which of the two it is?

@königsmacher
Iron Man (Hulkbuster) was the first character that was with Heroes for Hire and we started with his first cover (Red). Covers sold through Heroes for Hire will be their third cover until we get back to Iron Man (Hulkbuster)

DarthDeVo

This will probably be a waste of time and effort, as it seems like most of the discussion on this thread has died down by this point, and from everything I've read, it sounds like this will be the iteration of the HfH store for the foreseeable future, but it's really the first chance I've had to really sit down at my computer and hammer out a rant.

First, let me say I'm still pretty aggravated by this decision. I begrudgingly acknowledge that I can somewhat understand the change based on financial reasons. As others have pointed out, people were probably spending their resources more on a "for sure" thing rather than rely on RNG.

The other thought I had was that people were possibly using this store to finish off characters, especially vaulted characters, faster than expected. Coupled with vaulting helping cover the newer characters more quickly, it could have driven the devs to conclude that 4* cover acquisition was too high for the long term health of the game. What happens when people get their characters covered and there are no more rabbits to chase? They get bored and lose interest in the game, which means they stop spending. So make it harder for them to catch those rabbits. Creating more artificial scarcity is the only reason I can think of for changing it from one 4* cover available every day to every five days. 

(Yes, I know there are more characters being released every 2-3 weeks, and that's generally enough to keep most people busy, but we all know we've already started seeing some champed G4ocket's and G4mora's out there already. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some Sandman's already, or at least close. I should make it clear that I personally don't feel cover acquisition is too high, especially for vaulted characters; I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here.)

So the apparent reason for the change more or less came down to financials. OK, I still can't say I'm wild about the change. I think it does nothing but hamstring the roster development for the vast majority of players and has done nothing but lower morale even further.

When the HfH store first launched, I had the 2500 HP offer. I took advantage of it on several occasions for a variety of reasons, and thought it was pretty perfectly priced. When it was changed to 3600 HP, I was pretty ticked. I was convinced that I would never spend an extra 1100 HP, even with the extra resources, and am sure I even posted as such.

However, as time wore on, my HP was piling up with few outlets to spend. Then Star-Lord yellow and Moon Knight purple came up back to back. It was a color I was completely lacking for each character, and I wasn't really close to earning them from 3* champ rewards. I only had enough HP to buy one of them, so I went with Moon Knight purple. My MK is covered a little better than my S-L, so I figured if one cover was going to maybe help make a difference in a Crash, it was going to be MK purple.

I was even tempted to buy some extra HP so I could afford both. But I was still kind of ticked that the store was 3600 HP rather than 2500; had it been 2500, I could have afforded both. So I decided on principle not to buy the extra HP. I also used it get a yellow Peggy cover to bring her to 5/5/2, rather than spend CP.

As I've mentioned, what I was really counting on HfH for was getting a Spider-Gwen and Drax red. The store was two days away from S-G coming into rotation when this was rolled out. Anyone who was waiting for a Gwenpool or Kate Bishop black was also out of luck. Apparently the smallest of compromises, adding those three characters to at least finish out the second rotation, even for 24 hours, was never even considered.

Ultimately, it was the decision to implement this highly inferior store coupled with truly horrible execution that has led me to decide that I will not be renewing my VIP, at least for the time being. I know one guy paying $10 a month probably doesn't mean much, but it is what it is. I'll probably also be giving the game a one star rating in the Google Play Store and Amazon App Store and writing a review urging people not to download or at least financially support the game.

1. The announcement for the change was made on a Friday, just several days before the change was implemented. Brigby, don't take this personally, but I don't buy for a second that if the reason for making the announcement on a Friday was to give us time to plan accordingly. If that was true, the announcement probably could have been made at least a week in advance. I would imagine a decision like this was not made in isolation, nor on a whim. It was likely the result of several meetings and probably had to go through some kind of approvals process. My point is, they probably knew this change was coming well in advance of 6/27, certainly before 6/23. But nope, let's put off the announcement as long as possible.

2. The announcement was made, supposedly to give players time to plan properly. Then, without warning, things are changed on 6/26 rather than 6/27—contrary to the announcement that was supposed to let us plan ahead.

3. But wait, there's a fix! All those characters are really still there, they're just hidden, and you just have to keep buying offers, at 3600 HP apiece, to get to the character that you wanted/needed. Let's hope it wasn't end-of-the-line Drax.

In effect, counting on HfH as a source of vaulted characters has effectively been neutralized. If you were intending on buying one of each cover for a character you didn't previously have rostered, it went from taking about 3 months to 1 year, 5 months, with more characters being added all the time. To go from Hulkbuster red to Kate Bishop purple will take more than two years, not counting new characters being added.

Everything about the decisions and execution regarding this change just reeks of being tone deaf and lacking empathy for players struggling with acquiring covers for vaulted characters. I understand that they're a business and need to make money, otherwise we would have no game to play, but there had to have been a better way to do this.

As I said at the top, I doubt few people will see, and even fewer will read it all or care. But I still felt it important to voice my opinion, for what it's worth. But maybe, just maybe, this will be seen as a canary in a coal mine, as I sense I'm not alone. Coupled with the overall decline in forum activity, I wouldn't think this bodes well for the future of the game.

The irony is, I believe this change was probably made to improve the overall long term health of the game, but has the potential to drive people who were already on the fence over the edge to quitting entirely or cutting their financial support at least.

But I really, truly, hope that some different decisions will be made in the future that's more favorable to players and maybe would entice me to financially support the game again. For all its faults, I still (mostly) have fun playing the game, and would be sad to see it go. In fact, it's only because I care about the game so much that I've even bothered writing this post.

So here's to hoping they're not done changing the HfH store, and that the next change comes quickly and will be light years better than this most recent change.

TheBaku

Darth Devo, 

Well stated and seconded. 

Day 1300+ player.... VIP since introduction. 

I will also not renew my VIP,  based on this decision and the manner it was introduced. 

Cheers. 
Baku

Style55

@DarthDeVo

Day 1330+ VIP off and on but I had consecutively renewed for the past 3~ months. 

18 days left on my VIP and assuming there are no positive changes made to HfH I will very likely not renew my sub. 

BlackWidower

The very least they can do is just let people who had saved to buy one of the covers they removed early, buy them.  

These covers are:
Carnage - Black
Quake - Yellow
Iron Fist (Danny Rand) - Green
Drax - Purple
Nick Fury - Blue

If they want to makes changes, fine, whatever, but saying you are going to do something on a certain date and then changing that at the last minute without any advanced warning is just really bad form.

Do the right thing and make these covers available for 24 hours.

nitefox1337

Don't you find 3600 Hero Points for 1 Hero a bit "greedy". I was looking forward to reach level 30. When I did they change the prices of 4 stars heroes. Now, obviously, no way I am making such expensive purchases.

In fact it's the reason why I didn't renew my VIP subscription.

I don't know about you but when you see that a company is very greedy, and tries to leech you in every turn, you feel the need to punish them by playing their game for free.

Of course this works for players who can keep gaming casual. If you have addiction issues, ure scrwed... xD

captainheath

At bare minimum they should change it so you have the option to buy three covers each cycle:  one for each of the three covers for the crash.  I would think that would drive more purchases.  Some might save up to buy 3600 x 3 to finish off a character.

Red_phoenixx

Increased cost and only 1 hero for 5 days, not a good move. I bought several packs prior because that one hard to find specific color cover 13 was there. Now waiting 5 days with 1 choice is going to take a long time to get the specific color hero cover I need. Not cool with the change....

DarthDeVo

nitefox1337 said:

Don't you find 3600 Hero Points for 1 Hero a bit "greedy". I was looking forward to reach level 30. When I did they change the prices of 4 stars heroes. Now, obviously, no way I am making such expensive purchases.

In fact it's the reason why I didn't renew my VIP subscription.

I don't know about you but when you see that a company is very greedy, and tries to leech you in every turn, you feel the need to punish them by playing their game for free.

Of course this works for players who can keep gaming casual. If you have addiction issues, ure scrwed... xD

Yeah, 3600 is still maybe a little on the high side. As I mentioned, I had the 2500 HP price with fewer resources initially, and thought that was just about prefect. 

It sounds like you're still at a pretty early point in the game (somewhere around SHIELD Rank 30?). Please don't take the following in a jerkish or condescending way, but this store in its current iteration isn't meant for you. It's not designed to be beneficial to you at the point you are in the game. Most of your HP should be going to roster slots, not on a store like this. People in the 4* transition, such as myself, have much more (earned) disposable HP to spend on things like this. 

As a matter of fact, the store in its current iteration seems to be designed to be useful to as few people as possible. It can be useful for people with a X/X/0 (or 0/X/X and X/0/X) to get that initial cover, especially for vaulted characters. Likewise, it can be useful for characters with 12 covers, to get that final cover to champ (and respec if so desired). But with the rotation so significantly slowed down, it's certainly not something you count on anymore, at least not like we used to be able to. 

Now it seems purely meant for people to get an additional cover for the Crash. This is solely my opinion, but I would think it's not very common that one more cover will be the difference between winning and losing. Not that it will never make a difference, just on rare occasions, and not enough to necessitate such a drastic change.

Does it make it easier to line it up with the Crash for those rare instances where one more cover will help? Technically, yes. But it severely **** the Behemoth Burrito, which the rotation had previously been tied to. And as others have pointed out, a 4* character with one cover or who is undercovered can handle the BB, since you have the 3* and 2* as backup.

And really, you should know your roster well enough that if there is a character who could benefit from just one more cover for their Crash, you should have been able to plan ahead with the old daily rotation and buy them when they were available, even if the Crash was weeks or months away. 

I contend the only explanations that make sense for this change is a financial one or to artificially slow down the 4* transition, because I don't think it was a positive change for the majority of players. 

captainheath said:

At bare minimum they should change it so you have the option to buy three covers each cycle:  one for each of the three covers for the crash.  I would think that would drive more purchases.  Some might save up to buy 3600 x 3 to finish off a character.

Not a bad idea, but the devs seem to abhor making it easy to obtain covers that quickly.

I could maybe see them changing it to offering one cover of each color for a character during their Crash, but you only get to pick ONE cover of the three each rotation. With the artificial scarcity they seem to favor, I doubt they would allow people to buy one of each color (three total) at a time.

That would be better than what we have now, since it takes ~250 days just to go through the rotation, ~500 days for one character to go from their first color cover to their third color cover being offered.

In this suggested set up, I would just have to wait until Spider-Gwen comes up in the rotation again (still about 250 days, since she's close to the end of the rotation) to get a red cover. The way it is now, her yellow will come up next, I'll have to wait ~250 days (actually more, since characters like Coulson, Clagger and more will be added next rotation) for her purple to be offered, then another 250+ days before her red finally comes up.

If nothing changes, it will be more than two years before her red comes up again. Ridiculous.

astrp3

DarthDeVo said:

Not a bad idea, but the devs seem to abhor making it easy to obtain covers that quickly.

FWIW. Demiurge Anthony said on Discord that this particular change was not made to limit the availability of vaulted 4* covers (this was in the same conversation where he implied it was done for financial reasons). I agree, however, that it certainly seems that the devs don't want us getting vaulted 4* covers for some reason. If this is the case (and it may well not be), I'm at a bit of a loss as to why.

I could understand if they were trying to limit the availability of 4* covers overall, since if players got 4*s too quickly, they might not have any reason to spend any more money on the game. But they have made it so much easier to get non-vaulted 4*s that players can build a competitive 4* roster much more quickly than before.

What do the devs think having more vaulted 4* covers is going to allow players to do that they couldn't do with just the non-vaulted ones? In terms of event-based accomplishments, I don't know if there are many for which the non-vaulted 4*s wouldn't suffice. I just entered 4* land a few weeks back and am up to ten 4* champs, with the highest level one at 278. I have made 900 in the last two PvPs (which I'd never done before).. I was already able to get top 10 in PvEs. I'd guess that just building up my non-vaulted 4*s champs and adding new ones would allow me to get to 1200 in PvP and top 5 in PvE, but maybe not. 

What else is left? Maybe top 5 in PvP requires having 4*s above ca level 300-320 (which I'm guessing is about the max to which you could easily level 4*s before they leave the stores)? Maybe reaching 1200 in PvP requires the same?

Of course, there are some players (including me) who want to champ all the four stars regardless of whether it helps them place better in PvP or PvE., but I don't know how many there are or if there are enough for the devs to target them. Or am I just totally underestimating the number of collectors out there?

Some have floated the theory that 4*s were starting to get to the point that they could compete with 5*s when boosted, which angered the whales, but I've seen no real evidence for this and I a bit reluctant to buy into Cetacean conspiracy theories.

MissChinch

nitefox1337 said:

Don't you find 3600 Hero Points for 1 Hero a bit "greedy". I was looking forward to reach level 30. When I did they change the prices of 4 stars heroes. Now, obviously, no way I am making such expensive purchases.

In fact it's the reason why I didn't renew my VIP subscription.

I don't know about you but when you see that a company is very greedy, and tries to leech you in every turn, you feel the need to punish them by playing their game for free.

Of course this works for players who can keep gaming casual. If you have addiction issues, ure scrwed... xD

I think you have to compare the 3600HP for a specific 4*, some iso and some elite tokens to what else you can do with HP to see how it stacks up... 

Theres not a lot... 

The only other way to get guaranteed specific 4*s is to buy out a store vault..  each store vault has (I think) three 4* covers plus an LT, and costs over 18k to buy out (two 40-packs)  even then you'd be getting three specific 4*s and an LT (plus additional swag) Chances that you're looking for the specific 4* covers offered are less good than being able to buy em individually...

The most cost effective way for a chance at a 4* using HP is the 100HP daily deal, but that's just a chance and guaranteed not to be one of the retired covers...

So I can see where it sounds greedy, but I think its really one of the best uses of HP and by not offering it I think D3/Demi would be being more greedy, because the alternatives are of even less value to you.

Unsolicited advice: If you're near rank 30 I would imagine you're still in need of roster spots...  I didn't even consider using HP for buying tokens, and only shielded in rare cases till I was well over 100 roster spots.  I was able to use those roster spots to increase the rate of HP I got, well worth it...

DarthDeVo

FWIW. Demiurge Anthony said on Discord that this particular change was not made to limit the availability of vaulted 4* covers (this was in the same conversation where he implied it was done for financial reasons). I agree, however, that it certainly seems that the devs don't want us getting vaulted 4* covers for some reason. If this is the case (and it may well not be), I'm at a bit of a loss as to why.

OK, I hadn't heard that part, just the financial angle. 

To which I would say, it may not have been your intention to make it harder to get vaulted 4*s, but that was certainly the effect. 

I could understand if they were trying to limit the availability of 4* covers overall, since if players got 4*s too quickly, they might not have any reason to spend any more money on the game.

Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I reached above.

As far as developing the roster further to get T5/T10 or 900 in PvP ... for me personally, I still feel like I haven a long way to go in PvP. I've hit 900 on a few occasions, but it's still few and far between. Hitting 1200 or placing T10 or higher still seems like a crazy pipe dream. 

However, I'll readily admit I don't fully understand the PvP metagame. I don't use Line or any outside coordination or anything like that. I think if I did, I might have some more luck. Although something that definitely would help would be expanding my 4* champs, to give me more options depending on the weekly boosted list. 

MissChinch

DarthDeVo said:

FWIW. Demiurge Anthony said on Discord that this particular change was not made to limit the availability of vaulted 4* covers (this was in the same conversation where he implied it was done for financial reasons). I agree, however, that it certainly seems that the devs don't want us getting vaulted 4* covers for some reason. If this is the case (and it may well not be), I'm at a bit of a loss as to why.

OK, I hadn't heard that part, just the financial angle. 

To which I would say, it may not have been your intention to make it harder to get vaulted 4*s, but that was certainly the effect. 

I could understand if they were trying to limit the availability of 4* covers overall, since if players got 4*s too quickly, they might not have any reason to spend any more money on the game.

Yeah, that's pretty much the conclusion I reached above.

As far as developing the roster further to get T5/T10 or 900 in PvP ... for me personally, I still feel like I haven a long way to go in PvP. I've hit 900 on a few occasions, but it's still few and far between. Hitting 1200 or placing T10 or higher still seems like a crazy pipe dream. 

However, I'll readily admit I don't fully understand the PvP metagame. I don't use Line or any outside coordination or anything like that. I think if I did, I might have some more luck. Although something that definitely would help would be expanding my 4* champs, to give me more options depending on the weekly boosted list. 

I think it was a very popular way to convert HP to ISO for people with large stashes and a propensity to spend money, to the point where it was being used over other options that had been purchased in the past. 

Anthony didn't say much, at least not the part of the chat I saw...  So I got the impression that, at a minimum, we were going to have to live with the throttling down of the opportunity to 1 per 5 days.  That is particularly frustrating because I don't make enough HP to take advantage of the store that frequently anyhow, now its just limiting my options...

It sounds like I'm right with you on the PvP and 4* development...  I'm looking for a way to cover retired heroes so I have more options in events.  With vaulting as it is none of my 4*s will be seeing many levels past 300 by the time they're vaulted, so just getting a retired hero to 270 makes them likely useful when boosted.  Buying out event store vaults to the tune of 18k HP to chase one specific 4* cover is very unappealing.

astrp3

DarthDeVo said:

As far as developing the roster further to get T5/T10 or 900 in PvP ... for me personally, I still feel like I haven a long way to go in PvP. I've hit 900 on a few occasions, but it's still few and far between. Hitting 1200 or placing T10 or higher still seems like a crazy pipe dream. 

One thing I realized after I posted is that the times I've gotten to 900 so far, I have had boosted 4* champs.

For Nefarious Foes, I had two - but that was an off-season PvP and probably shouldn't count since they are much easier. For Heavy Metal, I had one (Hobofist). Reaching 900 was surprisingly easy in both. I don't use LINE or play cooperatively and, given my introvert leanings, don't really want to.  I don't shield hop either. I just use one shield at the 8-hour mark (though for Heavy Metal, I reached 900 so quickly that I had to use a 24-hour shield).  I'm still in the middle of For Victory, but I had two at the start (Peggy and Hobofist) and just champed Agent Venom this morning. 

I don't know if I could get to 900 without at least one boosted 4* champ, but I doubt I could. Some might argue that, under the new system, you can't champion enough 4*s to always have one (or preferably two) boosted ones each week. That may be true right now (do they try to always include non-vaulted character on the boost list?), but I think it's temporary. As they keep rotating new characters in and out, you will be able to champion more than 12, though it could take a while. I also don't know if, as they add more 4*s, they are planning to start boosting more than 5 per week or if they're just going to lengthen the cycle (my guess is that they haven't even thought about it yet). Getting 4*s past ca level 300, of course, is an entirely different story and seems much harder under the new system.

DarthDeVo

astrp3 said:

DarthDeVo said:

As far as developing the roster further to get T5/T10 or 900 in PvP ... for me personally, I still feel like I haven a long way to go in PvP. I've hit 900 on a few occasions, but it's still few and far between. Hitting 1200 or placing T10 or higher still seems like a crazy pipe dream. 

One thing I realized after I posted is that the times I've gotten to 900 so far, I have had boosted 4* champs.

For Nefarious Foes, I had two - but that was an off-season PvP and probably shouldn't count since they are much easier. For Heavy Metal, I had one (Hobofist). Reaching 900 was surprisingly easy in both. I don't use LINE or play cooperatively and, given my introvert leanings, don't really want to.  I don't shield hop either. I just use one shield at the 8-hour mark (though for Heavy Metal, I reached 900 so quickly that I had to use a 24-hour shield).  I'm still in the middle of For Victory, but I had two at the start (Peggy and Hobofist) and just champed Agent Venom this morning. 

I don't know if I could get to 900 without at least one boosted 4* champ, but I doubt I could. Some might argue that, under the new system, you can't champion enough 4*s to always have one (or preferably two) boosted ones each week. That may be true right now (do they try to always include non-vaulted character on the boost list?), but I think it's temporary. As they keep rotating new characters in and out, you will be able to champion more than 12, though it could take a while. I also don't know if, as they add more 4*s, they are planning to start boosting more than 5 per week or if they're just going to lengthen the cycle (my guess is that they haven't even thought about it yet). Getting 4*s past ca level 300, of course, is an entirely different story and seems much harder under the new system.

My experience is that 900 is much more obtainable with at least one 4* champ, but even then, it all depends on which one it is. More than one, easier still, but again, dependent on which ones they are. 

I got to 900 in Combined Arms using champed C4rol, 3* Daken and 2* Torch with some effort. 

Nefarious Foes (aka "Champed Rhulk and Two Others"), I had a much harder time and ended up calling it quits without getting to 900. Mordo was the only champed character on my roster boosted for that event. But, I was also attempting to climb in Slice 5 with less than three hours remaining In the event, which probably made it harder.

On a side note, that event perfectly illustrates why it's important to be able to have a way to build up and champ the older characters. My impression of that event is if you have a champed Rhulk, that's basically Easy Mode. Mine's 3/3/2 Level 168 (unboosted), so not really useful, at least not compared to Rhulk's with health pools of 40K+ like I was constantly skipping.

Heavy Metal, again got to 900 fairly easily, thanks to boosted Agent Venom and Hobo Fist. I was also playing in Slice 1 with about 18 hours remaining in the event when I started. Because it's details like that that can also make a big difference, and it's those kind of nuances I really haven't bothered to figure out yet.

Wonko33

How long until they realize that seeing the same hero you don't want for 5 days is costing them business compared to a new hero each day?